Gene Fadness, ex-Mormon, on Catholic Answers

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Thanks, Marie!

It is not about winners or loosers…the Lord is calling us to the Christian brotherhood where we can atleast pray together occasionally…

The world is in such need to see the whole Body of Christ…so many people, including the Mormons have good charisms…but it goes every which way…

I am for reunification of Christianity.
 
Zerinus,
Thank for you for your very thorough defense of Mormonism. I think the Catholic church, to which the early church fathers belonged, is in the best position to interpret what the early church fathers taught. Select quotes can be taken from their volumes of work to try and establish unothrodox teachings that there are several gods or that men may become gods.
Near the end of your remarks, you do a good job in getting to a key difference between Mormonism and orthodox Christianity when you clearly articulate the Mormon teaching that God the Father and Jesus the Son are separate and distinct personages. Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant Christians maintain that while God can manifest Himself in three persons – God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit – he is One Triune God. While Jesus was present in his body on Earth, He did indeed pray to His Father and was subject to the will of His Father. But Jesus also did clearly identify Himself as the I AM of Exodus 3:14, accepts worship in John chapters 8 and 9 – and was stoned for it – rose people from the dead, forgave sins. Isaiah foretells that the one who is born of the virgin will be the Everlasting Father, the Mighty god, the Prince of Peace. So there is the critical difference between our two camps where orthodox Christians teach that Jesus is God and Mormons teach that Jesus is distinct from the Father. Some of the early church fathers gave their lives to combat the Aryan heresy that Jesus was separate or less divine than the Father. The earliest councils of the church at Nicea and at Athanasia were called to defend and then articulate the Tri-Unity of God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
A second area where we disagree is the view that men may become gods. That is NOT a teaching of the early church fathers. You may be able to find some isolated quotes from the writings of Mormon apologists that try and establish that by a mis-use of what they mean when they say “gods” and God-like characteristics, but, believe me, my friend, there are volumes more of quotes from the early Fathers very clearly stating that God is an uncreated being who has existed forever and will exist into eternity as the only God. (Isa. 42:8, 43:10-11, 44:6-8). Men, while having divinity within them and, through sanctifying holiness can become more Christlike, still will not become Gods of their own worlds as taught by Mormon Prophet Joseph Smith and his successors.
When you say that I based my decision to leave Mormonism on the passage in Hebrews regarding Melchizedek, you are mistaken. That was only the beginning of a three-year search. And, of course, like you, I use commentaries. Just because I quoted one doesn’t mean I believe only that one commentary. I am not a full-time, professional theologian. There are lots of men and women out there a lot smarter than I and their writings help me to better understand Scripture. You can read in my written testimony that there were lots of teachings in Mormonism that I struggled with. In the same testimony you will find the passages you requested from I Nephiwhere the words “the son of” were injected into key passages to establish Jesus as the Son of the Father and not the Father (although I do understand that some Mormon writers call him Father, as you point out. But you know as well as I do that they believe Jesus is a Father is some sense and some characteristics of fatherhood, but these Mormon writers do not believe Jesus and the Father are one in person.)
Finally, when we speak in these forums it is not between you and I alone, as you state. It is a group thread that includes many others. The tone of the thread is dicated by the tone of all and I think it is important that all commenters, including yourself, be treated respecfully and in a Christlike manner. I appreciate you doing so with me. God bless you,
Gene
 
AFTER having made that lengthy reply, I read the responses from page 11 on. I’m new to this and the technology. All of a sudden I’m reading that I chose to leave the debate and that I need to apologize!

I did not choose to leave the debate, Zerinus. I don’t know what you do for a living, but I’m very busy and just don’t get back to these discussion forums as often as I’d like. I have a full-time job, had family here for the holidays, am studying for the Diaconate and I love college football – bowl games by the dozens this week man!!! So, I didn’t choose to exit myself from any debate. I will apologize for not coming back to this as quicky as I should have, but I’m definitely not going to apologize for my convictions. I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ and will not cease to proclaim it.

I’m sorry you don’t understand the Sacrifice of the Mass. A lot of Jesus’ earliest followers did not as well, if you read the Gospel of John chapter 6, beginning with the Bread of Life discourse that starts at verse 22 and continues to the end of the chapter. As a matter of fact, after Jesus explains several times that Christians would partake of his very body and blood, many left him (verse 66). The Sacrifice of the Mass is the re-presentation of Jesus’ only and ultimate sacrifice made for us. We step out of the context of time and find ourselves at Calvary as Jesus Christ is offered up to forgive sins “once and for all.” So, there is a sacrifice being offered and it is the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and the one who is offering the Sacrifice is Jesus in the person of the priest. That answers your questions, as many others to this post have answered it as well. You may not like our answer or agree wtih it, but please do not accuse of not answering your questions.

Zerinus, you are an ardent defender of your faith and I applaud you for that! But we don’t make progress when we just try to prove the other wrong. I look at my ministry as primarily to Catholics to help them better understand their faith and not be persuaded to what I believe to be false Christs and false gospels. You are not interested in converting to Catholicism, so I really don’t see a point to all this. I believe, as the Catechism states, that people of many faiths who have a heart for God, who love Him and place Him first in their lives will dwell with Him forever in Heaven! That includes you, Zerinus! I don’t know your heart, only God does. So, in the end, what is our purpose here? You are not going to be persuaded to my beliefs, nor mine to yours; at least in this context. If there are Mormons truly questioning their faith and interested in exploring Catholicism, that is where I want to invest my time. You appear to have no doubt about your faith, so carry on good man, and God bless you.
Gene
 
Zerinus,

It’s a perpetual sacrifice. Like others have said it outside the bounds of time and place. …
The doctrine of the eternal nature of the Atonement of Christ is more fully, completely, and comprehensively taught in Mormonism than in traditional Christian theology. That is made possible by virtue of the additional insight and wealth of knowledge provided in LDS scripture about the nature of the Atonement of Christ that is not found even in the Bible. For example, the Book of Mormon expressly uses the words “infinite” and “eternal” to describe the Atonement of Jesus Christ—a language that is not found in the Bible. Here are some references:

2 Nephi 9:6-7; Alma 34:10-14.

Mormonism teaches that the atonement not only applies to the future but also to the past. The prophets, patriarchs, and saints of past ages knew of the Atonement of Christ and were saved by faith in His name as the ones who lived after He came. Here is an interesting quote.

Moroni 7:23-26.

This goes as far back as Adam. Adam and his posterity knew of and were saved through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, as those of future generations would be:

Moses 6:53-56.

Mormonism in fact goes a lot further than that. It teaches that the Atonement of Jesus Christ applies not only to the people of this world, but to all of God’s creation. Just as Jesus is the creator of all that God has created (under the direction of the Father), He is also the Savior and Redeemer of all of God’s creations:

D&C 76:40-43.

These doctrines are unique to Mormonism. So as you can see, Mormonism goes a lot further than traditional Christian theology in teaching the eternal and infinite nature of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. Now there is a difference between something being infinite and eternal in its consequence, and it being perpetual. The two words do not mean exactly the same thing. “Perpetual” implies something that is being “repeated” or “happening all the time,” like “perpetual motion”. Infinite means something that is boundless or limitless. It is not restricted by limitations of time or space. It does not apply just to a specific period of time, but to all time. It is not limited to a small area of space but to all space. So Mormonism has no difficulty coping with the idea of an infinite or eternal sacrifice. It teaches and understands that doctrine far better than traditional Christian theology does. But what we do have a problem with is the idea of a perpetual sacrifice—i.e. one that is, or needs to be, continually repeated. That is a false doctrine that has no basis in scripture. The Atonement of Jesus Christ is eternal but not perpetual. It happened once, and does not need to happen again—either physically, or metaphorically, or allegorically. The Sacrament of the Lord’s Supper is memorial, a remembrance, of that sacrifice; it is not a repetition, a perpetuation, or a reenactment of that sacrificed. That is the difference between the Mormon theology of the Sacrament, and the Catholic theology of the Mass.
 
Zerinus,

You are a staunch defender of your faith and it’s precepts. 🙂

Im glad it’s going well for you and works for you.

God bless. 🙂

Have a pleasant F&T Sabbath. 👍
 
Gene,

God Bless you in your studies for the Diaconate. In His own way, I find the God is strengthening His Church thru better education of both it’s laity as well as religious, priests and deacons.

My parish is bless to have a permanent deacon. He is such an asset to all of us. And to the diocese as well. (Hartford)

(Infact I do believe he is incharge of all of the deacons and their education in our diocese. )

I know you will serve those in your care well.

God Bless your family too…I know there is an element of sacrifice for them in your journey.
 
But what we do have a problem with is the idea of a perpetual sacrifice—i.e. one that is, or needs to be, continually repeated. That is a false doctrine that has no basis in scripture. The Atonement of Jesus Christ is eternal but not perpetual. It happened once, and does not need to happen again—either physically, or metaphorically, or allegorically.

Sigh, maybe one day you’ll actually get it.

The Atonement of Jesus Christ does not happen again and again, whether physically, metaphorically, or allegorically. It happened once.
 
Sigh, maybe one day you’ll actually get it.

The Atonement of Jesus Christ does not happen again and again, whether physically, metaphorically, or allegorically. It happened once.
Is the Mass a sacrifice, or is it not? Does the priest offer a sacrifice, or does he not? Why can’t you make your mind once for all, one way or another?
 
Is the Mass a sacrifice, or is it not? Does the priest offer a sacrifice, or does he not? Why can’t you make your mind once for all, one way or another?
The very fact that you ask these questions, when multiple people have answered you, including Gene Fadness, shows that you are either not reading the posts or are ignoring them. How many times do we have to say that the Mass is a sacrifice, and that it is called “the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass”??? Where did I or anyone else say that the Mass is NOT a sacrifice? Apologize for saying that I can’t make up my mind about it, when I’ve told you that the Mass is a sacrifice.

We have already said that Jesus died once and for all, the Atonement occurred once and for all, and that the Mass is a re-presentation of that same sacrifice. Gene Fadness already answered this as well, did you not read it? Here it is again:
*
“The Sacrifice of the Mass is the re-presentation of Jesus’ only and ultimate sacrifice made for us. We step out of the context of time and find ourselves at Calvary as Jesus Christ is offered up to forgive sins “once and for all.” So, there is a sacrifice being offered and it is the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and the one who is offering the Sacrifice is Jesus in the person of the priest. That answers your questions, as many others to this post have answered it as well. You may not like our answer or agree wtih it, but please do not accuse of not answering your questions.”*

Did you not read the Catechism excerpts posted? They said that Calvary and the Mass are the same sacrifice. It uses the phrase “re-presentation”, not “re-do”.

I don’t expect you to accept our theology or find it logical (since obviously I don’t accept Mormon theology or find much of it logical). But what I do expect is that you do not misrepresent the Catholic position (or attempt to tell Catholics what their teaching really means, which is what you are doing here), based on your interpretation of what Catholicism is teaching, when Catholics have already stated, and cited an official text, that:
  1. The Mass is a sacrifice
  2. Jesus does not die again and again
  3. The Atonement occurred once and for all
  4. The Mass is a re-presentation of the Cross and not a re-do (we step out of time and space and are back at Calvary for that once and for all sacrifice of Christ)
Clearly my mind was made up on the sacrificial nature of the Mass since I made my first post in this thread, and the Church has been quite clear on how we view the Mass. What is not clear is why you keep trying to claim that Catholics believe that Jesus dies again and again, that the Atonement happens more than once, when we have clearly told you that we do not believe such heresies. Again, I don’t expect you to understand or buy why we believe what we do, but at least accept that we don’t believe what you are claiming, and you are thus arguing a straw man.
 
Is the Mass a sacrifice, or is it not? Does the priest offer a sacrifice, or does he not? Why can’t you make your mind once for all, one way or another?
Asked and answered.

You still have not answered the issues I raised about the fact that:
A. You do not cite sources
B. Your sources are hate mongers and bigots.
 
Gene,

I’d like to present a slight clarification of terminology re: the …God can manifest Himself in three persons – God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit – he is One Triune God comment, particularly with respect to the words “personages” and “manifest”.
Zerinus,
Thank for you for your very thorough defense of Mormonism…

Near the end of your remarks, you do a good job in getting to a key difference between Mormonism and orthodox Christianity when you clearly articulate the Mormon teaching that God the Father and Jesus the Son are separate and distinct personages. Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant Christians maintain that while God can manifest Himself in three persons – God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit – he is One Triune God


Gene
I think the Mormon and Catholic positions about different personages is identical. That is, if the term “personages” means the same as “persons”, and not “personalities”. (and of course, I’d extend it to include the Holy Spirit, as well. But I’m less sure on the Mormon teaching here, Zerinus–please help.) The difference is in the belief of the different persons existing as the same being. Now, if by saying different “personages”, Mormons also mean different “beings”, I withdraw my assertion! Meanwhile, I think the idea of God **being **three different persons is a more precise presentation of Catholic teaching than the idea of God **manifesting **Himself as 3 different persons.

See the CCC (paragraphs 253, 254): usccb.org/catechis/text/pt1sect2chpt1art1p2.shtml
The dogma of the Holy Trinity
253
The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the "consubstantial Trinity."The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: "The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e., by nature one God."In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215): “Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature.”
254
The divine persons are really distinct from one another. “God is one but not solitary.”“Father,” “Son,” “Holy Spirit” are not simply names designating modalities of the divine being, for they are really distinct from one another: "He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son."They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin: "It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds."The divine Unity is Triune.
As always, this is just me talkin here!

thanks,
-kc
 
Gene,

I’d like to present a slight clarification of terminology re: the …God can manifest Himself in three persons – God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit – he is One Triune God comment, particularly with respect to the words “personages” and “manifest”.

I think the Mormon and Catholic positions about different personages is identical. That is, if the term “personages” means the same as “persons”, and not “personalities”. (and of course, I’d extend it to include the Holy Spirit, as well. But I’m less sure on the Mormon teaching here, Zerinus–please help.) The difference is in the belief of the different persons existing as the same being. Now, if by saying different “personages”, Mormons also mean different “beings”, I withdraw my assertion! Meanwhile, I think the idea of God **being **three different persons is a more precise presentation of Catholic teaching than the idea of God **manifesting **Himself as 3 different persons.

See the CCC (paragraphs 253, 254): usccb.org/catechis/text/pt1sect2chpt1art1p2.shtml

As always, this is just me talkin here!

thanks,
-kc
Kikkichan,

Mormon theology teaches that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost are indeed 3 different and distinct beings (say like you, myself and Theosis are 3 distinct & different people) but that they are unified in one divine purpose.
 
Thank you Gene for your replies. I will be replying to your posts within the next few days, since like you I also have other things on my hands at the moment. Best wishes for the New Year.
 
Marie5890,

Yes, I agree Mormon theology teaches 3 distinct beings. And that is a key difference between Mormon and Catholic (and traditional Christian) theology, which teaches one being (e.g., One in Being with the Father catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0748.html).

I also was focusing on the term “personages”. Both Mormon and Catholic theology teaches 3 distinct persons. (Or “personages”). However, we accept that, with respect to God, 3 persons *does not *imply 3 beings. Mormons believe, (I think …) that 3 persons does imply 3 beings…

Meanwhile, the three distinct Persons are not merely “presentations” or “manifestations” one of the God.
Kikkichan,

Mormon theology teaches that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost are indeed 3 different and distinct beings (say like you, myself and Theosis are 3 distinct & different people) but that they are unified in one divine purpose.
and as always, this is just me talkin here!

thanks,
-kc
 
You are doing your own head in now, which is alright by me. LOL!
LOL! Have you seen any shadows in the dark lately?
Wow.

Your witness to your Mormon charity is clear and plain for all to see.

I guess you think that Matthew 23 only applies to everyone except you.

People who read this entire thread as well as your other threads can see how you continually insult people.

Carry on, why should I stop you from showing your true self.
 
Christ dug a well and filled it with himself. At every Mass the Catholic Priest returns to Christ at the well, and brings Christ to his people. In this way, we participate in the well Christ dug for us.
Hebrews 4:14-5:10
John 6:51-58
Matthew 26:26-28, Mark 14:22-24, Luke 22:19-20
1 Corinthians 11:23-25
1 Corinthians 10:16-17
Hebrews 8:1-5

Mormon priests do not go to the well. Mormon priests do not have the authority to bring Christ to his people even if they did go to the well.
 
These doctrines are unique to Mormonism.
To claim that the transhistorical power of the atonement is uniquely Mormon reveals ignorance of Catholic theology of grace and sacraments. Catholicism teaches that all grace that has ever existed enters the world through Christ’s Passion. The Fathers taught that the rituals of the Old Law were confessions of a true salvation made actual by the cross. Circumcision for instance, was a confession of faith in which the effects of Christ’s blood were given to the individual, as Aquinas writes, “circumcision bestowed grace, inasmuch as it was a sign of faith in Christ’s future Passion.” Moreover, St. Augustine taught that the offering of Melchizedek was the Christian Eucharist itself, “For then first appeared the sacrifice which is now offered to God by Christians in the whole world.” Further, the papal definition of the Immaculate Conception says Mary was saved from original sin “in view of the merits of Jesus Christ."

That Christ is the redeemer of all creation can be found in Col 1:20, which was taken quite seriously, and even to extremes, by some of the Fathers, particularly Origen. Suffice it to say that the new heavens and the new earth at the end of the Book of Revelation were understood to be consequences of the redemption of the cross, whereby Christ makes all things new.
So as you can see, Mormonism goes a lot further than traditional Christian theology in teaching the eternal and infinite nature of the Atonement of Jesus Christ.
What I can see is that Catholic theology goes far in affirming the things you believe it to deny or overlook. If you do not know Catholic theology, you cannot competently explain how it contrasts with Mormonism.
Now there is a difference between something being infinite and eternal in its consequence, and it being perpetual. The two words do not mean exactly the same thing. “Perpetual” implies something that is being “repeated” or “happening all the time,” like “perpetual motion”. Infinite means something that is boundless or limitless. It is not restricted by limitations of time or space. It does not apply just to a specific period of time, but to all time. It is not limited to a small area of space but to all space.
This is groundless. The meaning of “perpetual” is “uninterrupted.” At least, that is the meaning of the Latin perpetuus, which is the actual word used in historic Catholic doctrine. It indicates is that there is no period in time where the atonement is not present. The alternative to saying the atonement is “perpetual” is to say it is “interrupted.” Is that something you want to say?

The notion that the perpetuity of the atonement implies motion is profoundly, diametrically opposed to Catholic teaching. In reality, the perpetuity of the mass is a corollary to the atonement’s transcendence of time. That the sacrifice itself, not just its effects, is unbounded by time is evident from the Rev. 13:8, which speaks of Christ as “the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” The actual offering on the cross does not come newly into being at each mass; what does is our liturgical approach to that offering. Because the infinite is outside of time, it can contact the finite world at every moment while remaining itself in one eternal present. If it were not so, it would be false to say that the atonement transcends time and space.
So Mormonism has no difficulty coping with the idea of an infinite or eternal sacrifice. It teaches and understands that doctrine far better than traditional Christian theology does. But what we do have a problem with is the idea of a perpetual sacrifice—i.e. one that is, or needs to be, continually repeated. That is a false doctrine that has no basis in scripture.
This criticism depends on your interpretation of “perpetual,” which, we have seen, is false.

I have already provided you with a small part of the scriptural basis for the Eucharist as a sacrifice in my account of Heb 13:15, to which you responded merely by quoting some fairly weak proof texts without interacting with my reading of the verse. Since you have not engaged the evidence presented to you, you are in no position to claim that the Eucharist as a sacrifice has “no basis in scripture.” The scriptural evidence is plain: the Eucharist is instituted at a seder meal; the seder is a sacrificial banquet. That’s evidence. Moreover, consumption is part of Hebrew sacrificial rituals, including the Passover. Christ is the Paschal Lamb, and eating the Lamb is how one partakes of the Paschal sacrifice.
The Atonement of Jesus Christ is eternal but not perpetual. It happened once, and does not need to happen again—either physically, or metaphorically, or allegorically. The Sacrament of the Lord’s Supper is memorial, a remembrance, of that sacrifice; it is not a repetition, a perpetuation, or a reenactment of that sacrificed. That is the difference between the Mormon theology of the Sacrament, and the Catholic theology of the Mass.
There are many ways to disprove to the “memorial” argument. I will stick with the simplest one, which is endorsed by the Council of Trent: in Israelite customs and in the Torah, the Passover is a memorial. Because the Eucharist is the New Passover, it contains in itself the perfection of everything that was contained in the Passover offering. That means, it must have a memorial function, within its sacrificial operation. And indeed, we do remember Christ’s Passion and Resurrection in the mass.

Rather than undermining the claim that the mass is a sacrifice, the memorial aspect of the Eucharist supports it, because it draws firm the connection between the mass and the Passover meal. It would actually be a strong argument against the mass as a sacrifice if it were *not *a memorial.
 
Last night Gene Fadness, an exMormon who converted to Catholicism, was on Catholic Answers. The show can be accessed here:

catholic.com/radio/calendar.php

It is the show for October 19. Ironically, yesterday was the 35th anniversary of the beginning of my Mormon mission in 1974.
Now, we need to get Glenn Beck back into the Catholic Church. He left and became a Mormon!
 
Now, we need to get Glenn Beck back into the Catholic Church. He left and became a Mormon!
In all fairness to Glenn struggle with alcohol and drug addiction, the LDS culture is a much better atmosphere and support system to keep him sober.

I understand that the WoW was a big reason for his conversion. I will not invalidate that. Its much easier to remain sober as a Mormon than it is a Catholic.

Just my observations having lived both faiths.
 
Zerinus,
Thank for you for your very thorough defense of Mormonism. I think the Catholic church, to which the early church fathers belonged, is in the best position to interpret what the early church fathers taught. Select quotes can be taken from their volumes of work to try and establish unothrodox teachings that there are several gods or that men may become gods.
You might be interested to know that that language is found even in the Catholic Catechism. Men may become gods!
460 The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature”: “For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God.”1 “For the Son of God became man so that we might become God.”2 “The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods.”3 Source.
Notes:
1 St. Irenaeus, Adv. haeres. 3, 19, 1: PG 7/1, 939.
2 St. Athanasius, De inc. 54, 3: PG 25, 192B.
3 St. Thomas Aquinas, Opusc. 57, 1-4.
Near the end of your remarks, you do a good job in getting to a key difference between Mormonism and orthodox Christianity when you clearly articulate the Mormon teaching that God the Father and Jesus the Son are separate and distinct personages. Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant Christians maintain that while God can manifest Himself in three persons – God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit – he is One Triune God.
For which there is no scriptural basis.
While Jesus was present in his body on Earth, He did indeed pray to His Father and was subject to the will of His Father. But Jesus also did clearly identify Himself as the I AM of Exodus 3:14, …
Indeed! We believe that Jesus of the New Testament was the Jehovah of the Old Testament. But we believe that Jehovah and the Father are not the same persons. The Deity who often appeared to the Old Testament prophets by the name of Jehovah was in fact the pre-mortal Jesus Christ. That is the teaching of Mormonism. But we don’t think that the Father and Jehovah are one and the same people.
… accepts worship in John chapters 8 and 9 – and was stoned for it –
No problem with that either. The Book of Mormon has plenty of references to people worshipping Jesus as their God, and He accepts worship from them. Here are a couple of reffs:

1 Nephi 11:

24 And after he had said these words, he said unto me: Look! And I looked, and I beheld the Son of God going forth among the children of men; and I saw many fall down at his feet and worship him.

3 Nephi 11:

16 And when they had all gone forth and had witnessed for themselves, they did cry out with one accord, saying:
17 Hosanna! Blessed be the name of the Most High God! And they did fall down at the feet of Jesus, and did worship him.
… rose people from the dead, forgave sins. Isaiah foretells that the one who is born of the virgin will be the Everlasting Father, the Mighty god, the Prince of Peace.
None of these things present a problem in Mormonism. Mormonism accepts all of those doctrines. I don’t know why you are telling me these things. I don’t think you understand Mormonism very well. Perhaps you never did. Maybe that is the real explanation why you left the Church in the first place.
So there is the critical difference between our two camps where orthodox Christians teach that Jesus is God and Mormons teach that Jesus is distinct from the Father.
Jesus being distinct from the Father does not counter or rule out any of the above.
Some of the early church fathers gave their lives to combat the Aryan heresy that Jesus was separate or less divine than the Father.
The Arian heresy was neither about Jesus being “separate” from the Father, nor even about Him being “less divine” than the Father. The “separateness” of Jesus and the Father was not an issue raised by the Arian controversy, nor in the Council of Nicaea that was held to resolve it. The Arian controversy centered essentially on the divinity of Jesus Christ. Arius didn’t say that Jesus was a “lesser God”. He taught a doctrine that amounted to a denial of His divinity altogether. Mormonism accepts the full divinity of Jesus Christ. Mormonism teaches that Jesus is divine, but subordinate to the Father, not a “lesser God” than the Father. The subordination of the Son to the Father is suggested in many New Testament passages. The Father sends the Son, the Son does not send the Father; the Son came to do the will of the Father, the Father did not come to do the will of the Son; the Son prayed to the Father, the Father did not pray to the Son; the Father is greater than the Son; the Son is not greater than the Father; the Son ascended to the Father, the Father did not ascend to the Son; the Son called the Father His God, the Father did not call the Son his God. The subordination of the Son to the Father is suggested in all of those scriptural passages. I don’t see how anyone can deny that.

Continued … /
 
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