Geneology/excommunication help

[MercyMia]

Hey guys, does anybody know where I would be able to find information regarding a relative’s excommunication? This would have taken place in Italy either before or after World World II. The family member it involves is dead. Does anybody know of any resources I could use to find out information? In addition, do you know of any good geneology sources for searching for old news papers/ and or information regarding marriages?
Thanks in advance!

 

[1ke]

Sacramental and ecclesial court records are not public. So, no.

 

[Castello]

Decrees of Excommunication, if they were issued by the Vatican, will be on the Vatican website. For example:

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20020805_decreto-scomunica_en.html

If this person was part of a notorious group who was excommunicated, such may have come from the Vatican.

If the excommunication was over a local matter, done by a Bishop, there would not have been need for a public record.

Most times what people think was an excommunication was simply a person putting themselves in a state of sin and being unable to partake of communion, for example “my great grandma was deserted by her husband who had seven girlfriends and my poor granny was excommunicated because she remarried”. You may want to see if there are local newspaper articles about some serious thing your relative did against the Church that would be reason for excommunication.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Hey guys, does anybody know where I would be able to find information regarding a relative’s excommunication? This would have taken place in Italy either before or after World World II. The family member it involves is dead. Does anybody know of any resources I could use to find out information? In addition, do you know of any good geneology sources for searching for old news papers/ and or information regarding marriages?
Thanks in advance!

I would say to try and talk to the first-degree relatives for further information, but tread carefully. You may find out information you’d rather not have known. This can give you doubts about your own heritage. My curiosity about my maternal great grandfather led me to discover information about the man that I really wish I hadn’t.



As for genealogy sources, in a foreign country, you either go there, to the village or town and dig through the records, or you hire someone to do it for you. You aren’t going to find newspapers in Italy having online archives from the 1930’s and 1940’s. Unless your family was notorious, you will probably find no mention of them in any newspaper.

 

[1ke]

Decrees of Excommunication, if they were issued by the Vatican, will be on the Vatican website. For example:

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20020805_decreto-scomunica_en.html

Maybe. The items on the Vatican website deal with **current **situations, such as specific Bishops and women attempting “ordination”. There is no comprehensive list on the Vatican website. And, the subject the OP is inquiring about is dead.

Most times what people think was an excommunication was simply a person putting themselves in a state of sin and being unable to partake of communion, for example “my great grandma was deserted by her husband who had seven girlfriends and my poor granny was excommunicated because she remarried”.

Well, under the 1917 code of canon law, in effect until 1983, remarriage without annulment **did **incur excommunication. So, Granny knew what she was talking about.

 

[MercyMia]

Thanks for the replies so far guys.

One question, for any of you versed in marriage traditions in Italy… if a couple celebrated their wedding anniversary on a day that means their actualy wedding fell on a Monday, is that an indicator that the wedding could not have taken place in a church? The era is the 1940’s.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Thanks for the replies so far guys.

One question, for any of you versed in marriage traditions in Italy… if a couple celebrated their wedding anniversary on a day that means their actualy wedding fell on a Monday, is that an indicator that the wedding could not have taken place in a church? The era is the 1940’s.

People in Italy did not necessarily marry on a weekend, like we do in the US.

Often, a village would have just one priest and the weekends were too busy with Mass and Confession.

BUT the Church record for the wedding should still be available, and the Civil record for the wedding should still be available.

Do you have any relatives you can speak to in the Italian town? They could go to the “anagrafe” (hall of records) of the town and pull the record.

Are you curious if someone was divorced and remarried? Divorce was not legalized in Italy until I beleive the 1970’s.

 

[MercyMia]

People in Italy did not necessarily marry on a weekend, like we do in the US.

Often, a village would have just one priest and the weekends were too busy with Mass and Confession.

BUT the Church record for the wedding should still be available, and the Civil record for the wedding should still be available.

Do you have any relatives you can speak to in the Italian town? They could go to the “anagrafe” (hall of records) of the town and pull the record.

Are you curious if someone was divorced and remarried? Divorce was not legalized in Italy until I beleive the 1970’s.

Yes Mary Gail, I am curious about a particular couple in my lineage…they left the Church and it has been said they were excommunicated, but I’m not sure. I’ve wondered if the husband, perhaps, had a prior marriage… they joined an evangelical church (which was a rare thing to do at the time), so I wondered if wanting to be remarried was the issue. These people are dead, so I don’t want to overly speculate, yet the man who I am discussing went on to do some very horrible things to his children…so I wonder…

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Yes Mary Gail, I am curious about a particular couple in my lineage…they left the Church and it has been said they were excommunicated, but I’m not sure. I’ve wondered if the husband, perhaps, had a prior marriage… they joined an evangelical church (which was a rare thing to do at the time), so I wondered if wanting to be remarried was the issue. These people are dead, so I don’t want to overly speculate, yet the man who I am discussing went on to do some very horrible things to his children…so I wonder…

Well, sometimes a man would come to the US alone to send money back to Italy and never go back, or stay away for years at a time.

My Grandmother’s brother disappeared in 1906 circa.

No one ever saw or heard from him. We don’t know if he died and the body was not found (alone in the countryside) if he was killed, or if he left Italy for the US or south America,or Australia.

Also in southern Italy a type of Common law marriage was popular They were not considered married by the state or the Church, but would cohabitate usually until they could get married (lack of money, lack of priest in the town, family objections)

In Sicily, the “fuitina” was common.

A couple would want to marry, but could not due to some reason (often parental objection) but would “elope”. This elopement would consist of running off together and making it known that she had spent alone time or overnight time without chaperones. Then the parents would agree to let the couple marry, in order to save face and reputation. A couple after a “fuitina” would be considered socially married…so they were not considered available to marry another.

BTW some towns have updated their records department, and you might find the record online.

This seems like a very interesting piece of family history for you.