General Tendency among anti-Trad posters

[SanJudas]

Yes, they cut and paste and cut and paste and cut and paste…the attacks never subside. It is a quite blatant yet shallow approach that is easily recognized if you spend any time here at all…

I really don’t like arguing with all of these liberals and modernists. I ridded myself of the last vestiges of those heresies a while ago. (I hope!) No, the only way to deal with these people is to follow the advice of Our Lord in Mark 9:29: “This kind can only come out through prayer and fasting.”

What bothers me is that a sincere person who comes to the Traditional forum seeking for truth could easily grow frustrated by having to slog through post after post of mushy modern theology, or become confused as to what really is the Truth. To any one in that situation, I recommend TAN Books as an antidote to the flabby post-VII thinking we so often see here. Reading a book from one, two, five, or fifteen hundred years ago and then comparing it to what we hear from these flaccid feel-good “Peace and Love” types will straighten a person right out.

 

[PrayforMallory]

I’m no theologian, so when we’ve discussed doctrine, my main goal has been to understand, rather than to argue.

I love the traditional liturgy so much. I just want to see it spread all over the world and become a “regular” thing again. Basically, I want all the stumbling blocks removed by the progressivists and the clarity of the traditional way of life reinvigorated.

That’s just how I feel. Nothing against anyone.

As for the SSPX, there are some things I’ve read about that seem sound (some of their more refined doctrinal arguments) and things that are off-putting (like Williamson calling the Pope “objectively insane”)/ I don’t want any part of the extreme. I just want to be able to go to the Traditional Mass, no matter where I travel. I want my friends to be able to go, and unfortunately, there are only SSPX chapels where they live, so they have to suffer through some really protestantized liturgies (I’m mean really protestantized, with protestant music, etc. I’m not taking a crack at the OF here. I also wish they could go to a more traditional OF. Sadly, “Lord of the Dance,” and “On Eagles’ Wings” remains the norm for them).

As for the women idea, there are more women than men at trad Masses.Some women embrace the chapel veil.

Also, I’m a former protestant. When I converted I wanted to be Catholic to the max. I rejected protestantism and wanted to be Catholic. I can’t stand protestant liturgical culture. Of course, I was raised with really banal pentecostal “liturgies,” where insanity and banality prevails.

Just my thoughts. I’m fine with the OF. I just don’t understand preferring it, and I don’t think I ever will, but if it brings someone closer to God and strengthens them in the Catholic faith, well, more power to them. I just want the TLM to spread and revitalize!

 

[GerardP]

What “traditions”? I think the Tridentine Mass was largely suppressed for many years so as NOT to placate schismatics/heretics/apostates/whatever like the SSPX.

If that were true, the kind of mentality and the lack of holiness on the part of those in power would be beastly.

What you are proposing is pure evil on the part of the bishops and the Popes. Pure, rancid destroy for the sake of destruction evil.

Also, you obviously don’t have a clue about what schism, heresy or apostasy is.

Part of being traditional is to have a good grasp of the Catholic faith.

 

[SanJudas]

I’m no theologian…I just want the TLM to spread and revitalize!

Thank you, PrayforMallory. That’s the kind of thoughtful and considerate response I was hoping to get.

 

[JuanCarlos]

Spiller, aren’t you an extraordinary minister of Holy Communion? And haven’t you posted in the past that you prefer the Novus Ordo over the Traditional Latin Mass, and the CCC over the Baltimore and Roman Catechisms? These definitely aren’t the traits of a traditional minded Catholic… not to say a dissident or unorthodox Catholic, but simply not a “traditional minded” one. Thats like saying you are an “Eastern minded” Catholic who prefers Latin worship over Eastern one, prefers Latin traditions over Eastern ones, and prefers Latin theological texts over Eastern ones. But, of course, you would still be be an Eastern Catholic and anathema sit to anyone who challenges that.

 

[preV2tradcath]

Spiller, aren’t you an extraordinary minister of Holy Communion? And haven’t you posted in the past that you prefer the Novus Ordo over the Traditional Latin Mass, and the CCC over the Baltimore and Roman Catechisms? These definitely aren’t the traits of a traditional minded Catholic… not to say a dissident or unorthodox Catholic, but simply not a “traditional minded” one. Thats like saying you are an “Eastern minded” Catholic who prefers Latin worship over Eastern one, prefers Latin traditions over Eastern ones, and prefers Latin theological texts over Eastern ones. But, of course, you would still be be an Eastern Catholic and anathema sit to anyone who challenges that.

JuanCarlos, excellent post. Thank you.

 

[Spiller]

Another one of your “ad SSPX” attacks. Do you simply cut and paste them from one thread to another?

Have you ever added any value to a thread? You cannot defend your postings so you retort to ad hominem attacks. That’s very poor form.

 

[SanJudas]

Spiller, aren’t you an extraordinary minister of Holy Communion?

Good heavens! Have I ever actually received Holy Communion from a person like this? No wonder almost 80% of American Catholics don’t believe in the Real Presence any more!

 

[Spiller]

Spiller, aren’t you an extraordinary minister of Holy Communion? And haven’t you posted in the past that you prefer the Novus Ordo over the Traditional Latin Mass, and the CCC over the Baltimore and Roman Catechisms? These definitely aren’t the traits of a traditional minded Catholic… not to say a dissident or unorthodox Catholic, but simply not a “traditional minded” one. Thats like saying you are an “Eastern minded” Catholic who prefers Latin worship over Eastern one, prefers Latin traditions over Eastern ones, and prefers Latin theological texts over Eastern ones. But, of course, you would still be be an Eastern Catholic and anathema sit to anyone who challenges that.

First knock-off the ad hominem attacks. Postings #6, #15 and #17 are nothing but personal attacks because you cannot respond. This posting is really no better.

1.) Being a commissioned EMHC in no way precludes one from being a traditionally-minded Catholic – so long as the Church’s instructions are follow. So you’re wrong.

2.) I do much prefer the OF of the Mass over the EF but it in no way precludes me from being a traditionally-minded Catholic. Although it probably does preclude me from being a “Traditional Catholic”, thanks be to God.

3.) ALL Catholics should prefer the CCC over the BC and other dated/unofficial works! Your comments on this one simply make me shake my head.

4.) Your eastern analogy is ludicrous. Your definition of what is “traditional” is extremely shallow and bigoted. It’s something I would never adhere to, and again, thanks be to God.

Get as nasty as you want – I’m used to it. It’s not Church traditional that people like me eschew – it’s shallow and bigoted “definitions” that people like you brew up in your own minds and then try to defend – usually ending in frustration.

 

[Spiller]

Come on, pnewton…how can you have “not one anti-traditionalist bone” in your body and oppose the SSPX? Had it not been for the SSPX, the modern church would of swallowed up tradition long ago…the SSPX is the biggest fear that the conciliar church has today…why else would they be working so hard to erase tradition from the radar screen?

The SSPX has nothing to do with Church tradition.

 

[Spiller]

I really don’t like arguing with all of these liberals and modernists. I ridded myself of the last vestiges of those heresies a while ago. (I hope!) No, the only way to deal with these people is to follow the advice of Our Lord in Mark 9:29: “This kind can only come out through prayer and fasting.”

What bothers me is that a sincere person who comes to the Traditional forum seeking for truth could easily grow frustrated by having to slog through post after post of mushy modern theology, or become confused as to what really is the Truth. To any one in that situation, I recommend TAN Books as an antidote to the flabby post-VII thinking we so often see here. Reading a book from one, two, five, or fifteen hundred years ago and then comparing it to what we hear from these flaccid feel-good “Peace and Love” types will straighten a person right out.

In all sincerity, do you have any idea just how abjectly ignorant your first dozen or so words sounds? I don’t mean this as an attack, but after reading what I emboldened above I didn’t read any further. The same thing happens in real life. When someone approaches me with an opening line like that, I just walk away shaking my head. Anyone who says something like that is clearly telegraphing their ignorance and worse, the fact they have received some bad programming somewhere. It’s a waste trying to engage them.

 

[KathleenElsie]

Has anyone else noticed that the most vehement anti-Traditionalist and SSPX-hating posters on this forum seem to be either women or former non-Catholics? Is it possible that some of their animosity towards Traditional Catholicism may come from their fear of a return to some former era during which they imagine women, Protestants, Jews, etc. were mistreated or persecuted? Is this the main stumbling block in the way of them either accepting Traditionalism, or at least not coming onto this forum and constantly attacking it? Is there some way that we can allay their fears and reassure them that Traditionalists are not the Catholic answer to the Taleban?

I find that the anger is pointed at other women mostly. People just can’t seem to understand that some of us women believe that we are different then a man. Other women see our stance as being “unenlightened” or “misinformed” and that we need to become more like society is. Sorry, but, I do not intend to “blend” in and follow society to its demise.

 

[GerardP]

1.) Being a commissioned EMHC in no way precludes one from being a traditionally-minded Catholic – so long as the Church’s instructions are follow. So you’re wrong.

Actually this was an abuse tolerated by the Holy See. But it’s on its way out.

2.) I do much prefer the OF of the Mass over the EF but it in no way precludes me from being a traditionally-minded Catholic. Although it probably does preclude me from being a “Traditional Catholic”, thanks be to God.

Actually it does. You probably simply don’t have enough good Catechesis to know what’s wrong with the Novus Ordo. (example: Why did the Kyrie get cut from 9 invocations to 6?)

3.) ALL Catholics should prefer the CCC over the BC and other dated/unofficial works! Your comments on this one simply make me shake my head.

The CCC is terrible. It’s been revised numerous times. Multiple compendiums have had to be published to try and straighten out all of the confusion in it’s commentaries. Cardinal Schonborn even recommended that people continue to read the Catechism of the Council of Trent. And the Baltimore Catechism is not “unofficial”

 

[SanJudas]

Nope. It sounds more like nothing more than a veiled attack by you on those you disagree with or do not understand…The quality of your comments paint a fairly troubling picture of Catholicism.

Judging others now? Is that a “Traditional Catholic” trait? It’s frowned upon in actual Catholicism you know.

Have you ever added any value to a thread? You cannot defend your postings so you retort to ad hominem attacks. That’s very poor form.

In all sincerity, do you have any idea just how abjectly ignorant that sounds?

I think you answered the questions I asked in my opening post.

 

[Spiller]

Actually this was an abuse tolerated by the Holy See. But it’s on its way out.

Actually you’re wrong. It’s allowed by the Church as needed under specific circumstances. I hope one day we have enough ordained/instituted men to never need EMSHC but your comments are just incorrect.

Actually it does. You probably simply don’t have enough good Catechesis to know what’s wrong with the Novus Ordo. (example: Why did the Kyrie get cut from 9 invocations to 6?)

LOL! Are you serious? After reading your first two paragraphs I’m wondering what gives you the nerve to critique the catechesis I have received? LOL!

The CCC is terrible. It’s been revised numerous times. Multiple compendiums have had to be published to try and straighten out all of the confusion in it’s commentaries. Cardinal Schonborn even recommended that people continue to read the Catechism of the Council of Trent. And the Baltimore Catechism is not “unofficial”

The CCC is not only wonderful it’s an official document of the Church. The BC is a very dated national catechism. Your comments are the sort that really make me wonder about some who claim to be “Traditional Catholics.”

 

[Spiller]

Good heavens! Have I ever actually received Holy Communion from a person like this? No wonder almost 80% of American Catholics don’t believe in the Real Presence any more!

Yet another ad hominem attack. Very bad form. The non-truths your and people like you spread do far more damage to the faith then those you so ardently hate…

 

[JuanCarlos]

Spiller, I never said you were any less Catholic than I was. Please drop the “Jesus crucified” mindset, especially when you counter your arguments with labels like “shallow”, “bigot”, and “Thank God I am not a Traditional Catholic”. Look at my post. Did I ever once resort to a personal insult to bolster my claim Not in the slightest.

To reiterate- and I will try to make this as simple as possible-

1)Traditional Catholic- a Catholic who enjoys “traditional” Catholic practices- Latin Masses, no meat on fridays, cassocks, receiving on the tongue kneeling, no EMHCs (There were no EMHC’s in traditional Catholicism; thus there are none in the modern Trad Cath spiritual experience), and traditional Catechisms

1. You do not enjoy the EF in the sense Trad Caths do (if you even attend at all). It is impossible to divorce the Traditioanl Catholic movement from the TRADITIONAL Latin Mass. As well, you look down upon traditional Catechisms (“obsolete”?), and in fact you look down on Trad Caths! The cherry on top is that you are a Eucharistic minister- Trad Caths NEVER touch the Host!!!

You. are. not. a. Traditional. Catholic! Its very simple! You are no more a Traditional Catholic than I am a Maronite- not even remotely. Yes, I love and respect that particular Church but I do not use icons as the center of my home prayer life, I follow the Latin calender, I prefer the TLM over the Maronite Liturgy, and I prefer Latin Catechisms over Maronite ones. Its not an insult for me to be called a non-Maronite- its common sense!!!

 

[GerardP]

Actually you’re wrong. It’s allowed by the Church as needed under specific circumstances. I hope one day we have enough ordained/instituted men to never need EMSHC but your comments are just incorrect.

Actually I’m not wrong. The circumstances that actually warrant EHMC’s (something totally unique in the history of the Church) virtually never exist. And the abuse of EHMC’s is prevalent. In 1987 the Pontifical Commission ruled that “When Ordinary Ministers (Bishops And Priests) Are Present At The Eucharist Whether Celebrating Or Not And Are In Sufficient Number And Are Not Prevented From Doing So By Other Ministers, The Extraordinary Ministers Of The Eucharist Are Not Allowed To Distribute Communion Either To Themselves Or To The Faithful.”

LOL! Are you serious? After reading your first two paragraphs I’m wondering what gives you the nerve to critique the catechesis I have received? LOL!

The fact that you haven’t backed up any of your statements. Now, why did the Kyrie get changed from 9 to six invocations?

The CCC is not only wonderful it’s an official document of the Church.

It’s official but that doesn’t make it 100% correct.

The BC is a very dated national catechism.

But it contains more clarity than the CCC. You can actually learn the faith without being terribly confused. You’ll be confused by the CCC.

Your comments are the sort that really make me wonder about some who claim to be “Traditional Catholics.”

I seriously doubt that.

 

[VivatJesus]

Good heavens! Have I ever actually received Holy Communion from a person like this? No wonder almost 80% of American Catholics don’t believe in the Real Presence any more!

I’m a little worried about the fact that this person claims to be a “Eucharistic Minister” and his screen name is Spiller !

 

[VivatJesus]

Actually you’re wrong. It’s allowed by the Church as needed under specific circumstances. I hope one day we have enough ordained/instituted men to never need EMSHC but your comments are just incorrect.

We don’t need them, Spiller! The Church functioned perfectly fine for about 1,300 years when only the priest distributed the Holy Eucharist…and this was when nearly all Catholics believed in the Real Presence, as opposed to <20% nowadays.