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dronald
Guest
Yeah… I’m gonna have to go with Itwin here; no Protestant sees Mary as creepy. I’m sure you’re correct that some Protestants see her as “just a vessel” but no one ever says she’s creepy.
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marywarfield
Guest
In my experience, watching A of G people literally
scream, become violent and vomit when confronted
with a picture of Mary in my home I would agree
some are turned off by the very sight of the woman
herself.
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KP3243
Guest
I agree with the fact I don’t think it is Mary herself but what they mistakenly think the Church teaches. When you talk about Mary they are uncomfortable mainly because this mistakenly believe we treat her like we do God which isn’t true and getting over that hurdle is huge. There is also a difference between taking issue with the veneration of the saints and statues and Marian dogma. If you are Catholic you believe the Church has the fullness of truth, Marian dogma is truth then and nothing to be creeped out about. The rejection of Mary as your spiritual mother is like saying to Christ, she isn’t good enough for me.
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ltwin
Guest
Protestants who say Mary is “just a vessel” may seem to Catholics as radically reducing Mary to a test tube, and Catholics may have a point that saying Mary was “just” a vessel is inarticulate. Yet, Protestants who say that are underscoring the belief that we are all vessels. Mary is not different from other women, except that by God’s grace she was chosen to be the mother of God. That is certainly not something that should be treated lightly.
Mary is esteemed and honored by (low church) Protestants not because she is some sort of cosmic Queen of Heaven but because of her very humanness. In a situation that had to be terribly lonely and uncertain, she was obedient. She put her trust in God, and throughout her life she was consistently teaching us to “do whatever he tells you.”
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marywarfield
Guest
I disagree. The hostility at times is almost pathological.
This link from Landover Baptist pretty much exemplifies
what I’m talking about and it way crosses the line
of mere objections to dogma.
For instance their denigration of Catholics focusing
on holy vaginas. I don’t believe I have ever heard one
Catholic in my 58 years even mention Mary’s
vagina!
landoverbaptist.org/news0504/mothersday.html
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GKC
Guest
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ltwin
Guest
Yeah, you got me. How can I dispute the overwhelming evidence displayed on a website owned by a corporate entity named Antichrist Ltd.
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marywarfield
Guest
Well it does it’s job. Considering Westboro Baptist, jack Chick and
the others follow the same line?
I’m sorry. If you as a Catholic
, make the determination that hatred toward
Mary herself does NOT exist, you are wide open to deception.
Does this mean all “Protestants” think this way? No.
But to perversely deny that some find Mary “creepy” herself
is just delusional and adenial that evil exists.
It’s like saying Satan just “misunderstood dogma” and if we just
educate he will be a great guy.
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ltwin
Guest
This has nothing to do with being creeped out by Mary. No one is denying that many Protestants disagree with Catholic Marian dogma. You as a Catholic are fully justified in condemning those Protestants for rejecting what you believe to be true doctrine.
What you are not justified in doing is shifting focus from how Protestants feel about Mariology to how Protestants feel about Mary. Just because a Protestant dislikes what Catholics say about Mary does not mean that Protestant dislikes Mary. To try to make it into that is uncharitable.
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marywarfield
Guest
jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/mary_worship.htm
This is not a parody site. Yes you can SAY he is
merely objecting to dogma. That’s polite.
I say the guy is overboard.
Hail Mary Hail Satan? Really? A polite rejection
of dogma?
At least he had the good sense to lump the Lutherans
in with Catholics. In fact Lutherans are apparently
worse in his book lol
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GKC
Guest
I have no doubt that some form of hatred, and certainly some form of misunderstanding, for some things relative to Mary, exist some places in the expanse of non Catholics. But Westboro ain;t among them.
GKC
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marywarfield
Guest
The reality is many Catholics today are unarmed
just swept up into the feel goodedness of some
sort of ecumenicalism and ignore actual Catholic
teaching as “low church” or popular religion.
The reality is that the hatred of Mary herself is wide
spread and increasing. Which is why the Church is
increasing the number of trained exorcists.
When claiming Catholic devotion to Mary we can’t
just accept the roses and sweet stuff- you have to
deal with the whole burrito.
So yes there are Protestants who misunderstand dogma.
And then there are those who understand it
too well so to speak. in any case it’s unwise to
ever be dismissive of it.
This links to an official Catholic exorcist who explains
why some actually DO hate Mary, yes.
womenofgrace.com/blog/?p=27579
just swept up into the feel goodedness of some
sort of ecumenicalism and ignore actual Catholic
teaching as “low church” or popular religion.
The reality is that the hatred of Mary herself is wide
spread and increasing. Which is why the Church is
increasing the number of trained exorcists.
When claiming Catholic devotion to Mary we can’t
just accept the roses and sweet stuff- you have to
deal with the whole burrito.
So yes there are Protestants who misunderstand dogma.
And then there are those who understand it
too well so to speak. in any case it’s unwise to
ever be dismissive of it.
This links to an official Catholic exorcist who explains
why some actually DO hate Mary, yes.
womenofgrace.com/blog/?p=27579
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ltwin
Guest
You will not find me defending the author. His way of handling the issue seems counter productive to me. But, if I were to put myself into his shoes, I don’t see him insulting Mary as much as being insulted by what he considers Catholic idolatry.
He views what Catholics and Lutherans do as idolatry. He views it as Mary worship, which is not really worship of the real Mary at all. It’s worship of demonic spirits posing as Mary, just as demonic spirits pose as other deities. So, “Hail Mary” as he sees it is essentially “Hail Satan.”
As a Catholic you see this as an affront to Mary, the real Mary.
The author sees what Catholics do as an affront to Christ. The author would also probably think that the real Mary would be horrified and grieved that Catholics venerated her at all.
So, in reality, both of you are coming from the same perspective. Each of you considers the other party to be insulting/grieving both Christ and Mary.
And therefore accusations that Protestants are “creeped out” by Mary serve no purpose. What Catholics perceive as being “creeped out” is really Protestants feeling that Mary’s name is being malevolently used for evil purposes.
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KP3243
Guest
What other woman fits into Revelation narrative then if Mary isn’t the woman with the crown of stars. You can’t pick and choose what verses you want to include and exclude you have to take the whole Bible into account. You would have to agree that Mary is the Ark of the Covenant if you choose to go the route of the vessel.
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marywarfield
Guest
Yes and that is the deception many Catholics fall for.
But in Catholic terms Satan hates Mary, the demons hate
Mary primarily as she is the woman in Revelation. And
they use people to further hatred, mistrust, and rejection
against her. Which is why, as I said earlier, exorcism
is on the increase.
So when confronted by Protestants who tell me
Mary is no more than an incubator, I have to ask
myself what’s at play here? Occult or simple misunderstanding?
When a former Catholic turned A of G entered my home
and taking one look at the Virgin of Vladimir
icon becomes violent and vomits- I can’t rightly say
it is because he “misunderstands.” he was an adult
when he left the Church.
When the priest arrived he made to attack the priest
as well. Don’t know what the priest said to him but
the guy left meekly enough after the priest stepped
on his foot.
We can’t always know what’s at play but I do know
Mary is a subject that can swiftly sort a room full of
people.
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ltwin
Guest
No, I would not. The use of vessel imagery is not exclusive to Mary. All Christians are likened to vessels: “But we have this treasure in jars of clay, to show that the surpassing power belongs to God and not to us.” 2 Corinthians 4:7.
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KP3243
Guest
Then why did God exalt her above all other creatures by making her his own mother? God made Adam from clay, do you not think God could have made Jesus human without using a woman to give birth to Him, no self-respecting Christian or Jew would put a limit on God, so why did He give himself a mother?
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KP3243
Guest
What did the Ark of the Covenant have in it? The Word of God, Aaron the High Priests robes and the manna from Heaven. What did Mary carry in her womb? The Word Made Flesh, the Great High Priest and the Living Bread from Heaven. That’s why the Ark of the Covenant shows up in Revelation followed by a description of a woman with a crown of stars on her head.
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ltwin
Guest
The Bible said that she was favored.
Because that’s the way that he did it. He’s God.
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Stilldreamn
Guest
I stumbled across that site a while back. I was strangely comforted to be “lumped in” with the Catholics. We must be doing something right
But yeah, he’s gone 'round the bend IMO.
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