Generalizations of Protestants

[marywarfield]

I always assumed the Church is the bride and therefore referred to as such; I had no idea it had to do with Mary.

And any “attack” on the Church shouldn’t really be presented as an attack imo. I think dialogue is important in that if I am concerned over how Catholics venerate Mary I should be allowed to present my position contrary to that of Catholics. How I view Mary is different than how Catholics do, but I certainly think she was wonderful; no doubt.

Here maybe the first paragraph will help to explain it.
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p6.htm

Simplistically this is all through adoption. We are the
adopted sons and daughters of the Father through His Son
our brother and Mary is our Mother- by adoption.
So when we pray to Mary it is not because she IS God.
We know fully who God is. We pray to her cause she
is our Mother, and the Mother of Christ. And the Mother
of the Church itself.

 

[marywarfield]

I always assumed the Church is the bride and therefore referred to as such; I had no idea it had to do with Mary.

And any “attack” on the Church shouldn’t really be presented as an attack imo. I think dialogue is important in that if I am concerned over how Catholics venerate Mary I should be allowed to present my position contrary to that of Catholics. How I view Mary is different than how Catholics do, but I certainly think she was wonderful; no doubt.

And another case in point. You say you think she
WAS wonderful. We say she IS wonderful as we say
she is alive now in Heaven with God the Father and
God the Son and the Holy Spirit in the Communion of Saints. Communion
of Saints = living not dead people lol. To us when we
pray to Mary and the saints we are praying to living
souls in the Kingdom of God- Heaven.

So it is quite a serious matter for many of us.

 

[Peter_J]

I always assumed the Church is the bride and therefore referred to as such; I had no idea it had to do with Mary.

And any “attack” on the Church shouldn’t really be presented as an attack imo. I think dialogue is important in that if I am concerned over how Catholics venerate Mary I should be allowed to present my position contrary to that of Catholics. How I view Mary is different than how Catholics do, but I certainly think she was wonderful; no doubt.

It’s getting late tonight, and I’ll probably have relatively little time to post tomorrow; but I want to say that a big problem is the Evangelical protestant view of the church. All catholics – whether Roman Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran, Anglican etc – despite our different view concerning what the church is and where her boundaries lies, would each say “I’m in the church” (notwithstanding the fact that other catholics might respond “No your not.”).

 

[dronald]

Here maybe the first paragraph will help to explain it.
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p6.htm

Simplistically this is all through adoption. We are the
adopted sons and daughters of the Father through His Son
our brother and Mary is our Mother- by adoption.
So when we pray to Mary it is not because she IS God.
We know fully who God is. We pray to her cause she
is our Mother, and the Mother of Christ. And the Mother
of the Church itself.

So fascinating. Especially considering how many Catholics here have consistently told me, “we just ask her to pray for us; kind of like how you ask your friend to pray for you.” But it seems as if it’s much, much more than that to Catholics.

I feel like the topic of Mary has derailed this thread, but I must ask one more question because I always thought it was a rumor of some sorts. The term “mediatrix” I thought was not an official label given to Mary, but I found it in the article you showed me:

969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation . ... Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."

Is this her official title (among many)? And if so, is she the only mediatrix or are there others?

 

[marywarfield]

So fascinating. Especially considering how many Catholics here have consistently told me, “we just ask her to pray for us; kind of like how you ask your friend to pray for you.” But it seems as if it’s much, much more than that to Catholics.

I feel like the topic of Mary has derailed this thread, but I must ask one more question because I always thought it was a rumor of some sorts. The term “mediatrix” I thought was not an official label given to Mary, but I found it in the article you showed me:

969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation . ... Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."

Is this her official title (among many)? And if so, is she the only mediatrix or are there others?

I think it’s appropriate to discuss Mary in this thread
although not exclusively because she IS a huge sticking
point for many Protestants- some more than others.
And even among the Big Three, if you will, Catholic
Churches- Orthodox, Roman and Eastern- there are
differences. I’m a Roman Catholic brought up by an
Eastern Catholic mother so my view of Mary may be a
bit more extreme, I don’t know.

Mary is our Mother. Just like at the Wedding at Cana
when the stewards told her of their wine needs, we also
can ask her to pray for us to her Son and to our
Father.
I think you were on another thread where I pointed that
out maybe? That’s exactly what she was at Cana. The
mediatrix between Jesus and the bridal party. We do not
always presume to be in the Son’s good graces. We sometimes
go like little kids and say " mommy, can you ask Dad?"
“Mommy can you ask Jesus?” you ever do that
with your own mom when you were a kid?
It’s kind of like that.

 

[dronald]

I think it’s appropriate to discuss Mary in this thread
although not exclusively because she IS a huge sticking
point for many Protestants- some more than others.
And even among the Big Three, if you will, Catholic
Churches- Orthodox, Roman and Eastern- there are
differences. I’m a Roman Catholic brought up by an
Eastern Catholic mother so my view of Mary may be a
bit more extreme, I don’t know.

I don’t know either. To be honest, I respect that you do not sugar coat or beat around the bush with your answers. On the other hand, they do make me not feel so good about becoming Catholic. It’s this kind of devotion and adoration I just can’t grasp; and I think you need to make sure you don’t take that personally. I certainly love Mary, just not the same way you do. I feel like it’s over the top and my conscience would never allow me to venerate her in the way that you do.

Mary is our Mother. Just like at the Wedding at Cana
when the stewards told her of their wine needs, we also
can ask her to pray for us to her Son and to our
Father.
I think you were on another thread where I pointed that
out maybe? That’s exactly what she was at Cana. The
media trip between Jesus and the bridal party.

Yes, and that’s acceptable. But can’t anyone tell someone to listen to Christ or to pray for others? Does that make others mediator’s/Mediatrix’s in the same way as Mary? Or is it different?

 

[marywarfield]

I don’t know either. To be honest, I respect that you do not sugar coat or beat around the bush with your answers. On the other hand, they do make me not feel so good about becoming Catholic. It’s this kind of devotion and adoration I just can’t grasp; and I think you need to make sure you don’t take that personally. I certainly love Mary, just not the same way you do. I feel like it’s over the top and my conscience would never allow me to venerate her in the way that you do.

Yes, and that’s acceptable. But can’t anyone tell someone to listen to Christ or to pray for others? Does that make others mediator’s/Mediatrix’s in the same way as Mary? Or is it different?

Any of the saints. However and quite frankly I’m not
sure of exactly why but the saints, even the Little
Flower, do not have quite the “clout” so to speak.

Lol. I know it’s overwhelming. But we are an incredibly
literal group of people. If Jesus is our brother than Mary
Must be our mother etc etc. and if we eat His Flesh and drink
His Blood we will never die in spirit therefore obviously
our mother is very much alive in Heaven.
And my human mother too. I pray to her all the time to.
She would kill me if I didn’t call her once a week lol.

 

[DAML72]

This is a continuation from another thread but it is worth discussing. Just to play catch up, some of our Protestant friends on CAF do feel that too many times Protestantism is too often lumped all together, especially by Catholic Apologists. As a former Protestant myself that grew up in a liberal United Methodist Church, left that and then spent a number of years in Charismatic non-denominational Churches, I’ve been around the block. For our Protestant friends on CAF, do you think too many times Protestantism is too often generalized? do you think that Catholic apologists spend too much time with evangelical or fundamentalist issues? Do you think you can even generalize Protestantism at all? Do Catholic apologists answer your questions based on your faith background? I don’t want this to turn into lets bash our Protestant brothers and sisters, I hope that our Protestant friends on CAF will answer.

Yes, yes, and YES - I think too many times Protestantism is too over-generalized. Absolutely. I don’t spend much time on the apologists boards, so I can’t answer your second question, but I do see a lot of comments on here that lump all Protestants in the more evangelical and/or fundamentalist categories.

I do not think that you can generalize Protestantism - the more I learn about Catholicism and the various Protestant denominations, the more I realize how many differences there are - fundamental differences.

I haven’t asked questions of apologists. And, honestly, sometimes I read about the tenets of the tradition in which I was raised (Reformed Church in America, formerly Dutch Reformed Church), and I don’t have the same understanding of its theology as it seems I should have after being confirmed. (I’m thinking specifically with regard to the Real Presence and Once Saved always Saved.)

I do find it frustrating to be lumped together with other denominations. During the RCIA process I did get a bit offended at times. Only once did an RCIA teacher comment about ‘what Protestants believe’, but the whole process of having my Baptism recognized was frustrating. I felt like the RCIA director didn’t see the difference between me (coming from a church established in America in 1628 that has an agreement with the Catholic Church with regard to the recognition of baptism), and the guy whose grandfather baptized him in the kitchen sink. I understood the need to make sure it was done properly, but I resented that nobody took the time to understand about the tradition in which I was raised. (Which really formed the basis of my faith.) On the other hand, I understand that it is impossible to keep on top of the 30,000 different denominations that are out there.

 

[DAML72]

thank-you for your reply. One type a generalization that keep cropping up on CAF which does bother me is about church services and worship. Usually, it’s on threads that are questions about something with the Mass. All too often, someone that has a more “traditional” Catholic bent will say that this is some “protestant” import. I wonder which so called Protestant service are they thinking of which run the gamut from liturgical such as Anglican or Lutheran and even some Methodist or Baptist or even Charismatic which really has no form. I think too many ideas about a “protestant” service come from watching TV preachers like Joel Osteen which does give an appearnce of a giant pep rally.
But to blame things one dislikes about what is happening at their local Church in Mass on some mythical un-named Protestant import boarders on ignorance than real information.

Agree! I have to say, I think when I was growing up in the 70s and 80s, my church seemed much more traditional than the Catholic church down the street. Lol!

 

[DAML72]

I don’t know any Pentecostals but the of Protestants I know, some go so far to reduce the Mother of God so far and literally call her just a vessel. You wouldn’t even call your own mother just a vessel! Mark Shea goes into his journey into Catholicism in Mary Mother of the Son and he says a lot of Protestants find Mary weird and creepy. If you watch the Journey Home Mary is always the last stumbling block or hurdle for a lot of Protestants coming into the Church.

Yes, Mary is often a stumbling block, and there are reasons for that way beyond just seeing her as a ‘vessel’. Just to name a few - there is the perception of Idolatry, and there is the lack of understanding of the Communion of Saints. But to assume all Protestants have a had time with her just because they find her ‘creepy’ is just silly.

 

[DAML72]

I think it’s appropriate to discuss Mary in this thread
although not exclusively because she IS a huge sticking
point for many Protestants- some more than others.
And even among the Big Three, if you will, Catholic
Churches- Orthodox, Roman and Eastern- there are
differences. I’m a Roman Catholic brought up by an
Eastern Catholic mother so my view of Mary may be a
bit more extreme, I don’t know.

Mary is our Mother. Just like at the Wedding at Cana
when the stewards told her of their wine needs, we also
can ask her to pray for us to her Son and to our
Father.
I think you were on another thread where I pointed that
out maybe? That’s exactly what she was at Cana. The
mediatrix between Jesus and the bridal party. We do not
always presume to be in the Son’s good graces. We sometimes
go like little kids and say " mommy, can you ask Dad?"
“Mommy can you ask Jesus?” you ever do that
with your own mom when you were a kid?
It’s kind of like that.

No, the Mary discussion has totally derailed the thread, and it has gone on and on ad nauseum. This was not a thread about Protestant sticking points - it was about whether those of us with Protestant backgrounds feel lumped together by Catholics on this board and elsewhere.

 

[marywarfield]

No, the Mary discussion has totally derailed the thread, and it has gone on and on ad nauseum. This was not a thread about Protestant sticking points - it was about whether those of us with Protestant backgrounds feel lumped together by Catholics on this board and elsewhere.

Well sort yourselves out and let us know what you want
Catholics to call you. I’m sure I don’t know. Never been
in a Protestant church in my life. With the kazillions
of denominations all claiming to have the real take on
God it would take the rest of my life to figure it out what each
one believes.
So wouldnt it make more sense for you to tell us?

 

[Darryl_B]

I have no problem generalizing Protestants because the one underlying factor is not Mary, it is actually the authority of the Catholic Church (always has been always will be) (Mary is just a convenient side-track).

While many seem to think that protest against the Catholic Church authority on earth entrusted by Jesus Christ was someone else’s historical fight and they therefore personally cannot be held accountable for that rebellion, the simple fact remains, either the Catholic Church is given the authority from Jesus Christ and we can submit to it (trusting Jesus Christ), or we can go off and do our own thing (wherever we are lead). It is still though just rebellion from the familial covenant.

Put quite simply, the bottom line is, we tend not to like authority over us, that is the grand summation of the Protestant.

 

[marywarfield]

I have no problem generalizing Protestants because the one underlying factor is not Mary, it is actually the authority of the Catholic Church (always has been always will be) (Mary is just a convenient side-track).

While many seem to think that protest against the Catholic Church authority on earth entrusted by Jesus Christ was someone else’s historical fight and they therefore personally cannot be held accountable for that rebellion, the simple fact remains, either the Catholic Church is given the authority from Jesus Christ and we can submit to it (trusting Jesus Christ), or we can go off and do our own thing (wherever we are lead). It is still though just rebellion from the familial covenant.

Put quite simply, the bottom line is, we tend not to like authority over us, that is the grand summation of the Protestant.

That’s what I said earlier. The only common denominator among
non Catholic Christian religions is rejection of the
Catholic Church. Other than that the field is wide open
in theology, practices, beliefs, to a point that Protestants
don’t know what each other believe.
So I think Catholics lump everyone under the
heading of Protestant that rejects the Catholic Church
because hey, that is the only thing you all agree on?
I’m not sure what the alternative could be?
Wayside Church that rejects Catholic Church as opposed
to Lighthouse Evangelical that rejects the Church vs First
Presbyterian that yada, yada, yada?

 

[Darryl_B]

That’s what I said earlier. The only common denominator among
non Catholic Christian religions is rejection of the
Catholic Church. Other than that the field is wide open
in theology, practices, beliefs, to a point that Protestants
don’t know what each other believe.
So I think Catholics lump everyone under the
heading of Protestant that rejects the Catholic Church
because hey, that is the only thing you all agree on?
I’m not sure what the alternative could be?
Wayside Church that rejects Catholic Church as opposed
to Lighthouse Evangelical that rejects the Church vs First
Presbyterian that yada, yada, yada?

Sometimes I would like to go back in time and be the Ghost of Christmas future, bring those original protestants forward to today, show them the large number of churches in my walkable neighborhood, names they have never heard before, small congregations having nothing to do with each other, all in the name of Jesus Christ, and tell them “this is your work”, and then wonder whether they would instead choose to come home.

 

[benjohnson]

show them the large number of churches in my walkable neighborhood

I certainly understand what you’re saying as there’s a lot of bad doctrine and even the sacraments are being forgotten.

But food for thought - in Europe where Lutherans and Catholics are the ‘state’ church (or almost the state church) church attendance is abysmal.

Kierkegaard spoke about this often - assumed and easy christianity it’s death, and we can see that in Europe. Having to fight for our faith here in America can be tiresome, but it also has it’s virtues.

 

[Darryl_B]

I certainly understand what you’re saying as there’s a lot of bad doctrine and even the sacraments are being forgotten.

But food for thought - in Europe where Lutherans and Catholics are the ‘state’ church (or almost the state church) church attendance is abysmal.

Kierkegaard spoke about this often - assumed and easy christianity it’s death, and we can see that in Europe. Having to fight for our faith here in America can be tiresome, but it also has it’s virtues.

A kingdom divided against itself, my friend, a kingdom divided against itself.

 

[Peter_J]

That’s what I said earlier. The only common denominator among
non Catholic Christian religions is rejection of the
Catholic Church.

Exactly. Like if someone asked what the “common denominator” among non-Calvinist churches is, the answer would be rejection of Calvinism.

 

[Peter_J]

Yes, yes, and YES - I think too many times Protestantism is too over-generalized. Absolutely. I don’t spend much time on the apologists boards, so I can’t answer your second question, but I do see a lot of comments on here that lump all Protestants in the more evangelical and/or fundamentalist categories.

I do not think that you can generalize Protestantism - the more I learn about Catholicism and the various Protestant denominations, the more I realize how many differences there are - fundamental differences.

I haven’t asked questions of apologists. And, honestly, sometimes I read about the tenets of the tradition in which I was raised (Reformed Church in America, formerly Dutch Reformed Church), and I don’t have the same understanding of its theology as it seems I should have after being confirmed. (I’m thinking specifically with regard to the Real Presence and Once Saved always Saved.)

I do find it frustrating to be lumped together with other denominations. During the RCIA process I did get a bit offended at times. Only once did an RCIA teacher comment about ‘what Protestants believe’, but the whole process of having my Baptism recognized was frustrating. I felt like the RCIA director didn’t see the difference between me (coming from a church established in America in 1628 that has an agreement with the Catholic Church with regard to the recognition of baptism), and the guy whose grandfather baptized him in the kitchen sink. I understood the need to make sure it was done properly, but I resented that nobody took the time to understand about the tradition in which I was raised. (Which really formed the basis of my faith.) On the other hand, I understand that it is impossible to keep on top of the 30,000 different denominations that are out there.

Good post. At the same time I think it needs to be stressed that the fault isn’t entirely on the side of us Catholic posters. Specifically, I have found that a lot of protestants come to CAF with a kind of “victimy” stance, almost like they’re wearing a “kick me” sign.

 

[steido01]

Well **sort yourselves out **and let us know what you want
Catholics to call you. I’m sure I don’t know. Never been
in a Protestant church in my life. With the kazillions
of denominations all claiming to have the real take on
God it would take the rest of my life to figure it out what each
one believes.
So wouldnt it make more sense for you to tell us?

Mary, “Protestant” is a created word whose objective meaning has been misapplied to other groups. Some non-Roman Catholics are Protestant, some not. Calling all of them Protestant is inaccurate. It’s like calling all the world’s governments “dictatorships” because they don’t use the same form of democracy found in the United States. Some non-United States counties are dictatorships, but not all.

The ‘only’ common denominator isn’t “rejection” of the Roman Church (after all, Lutherans and Anglicans and others consider y’all to be part of the one, holy, catholic and apostolic church), but Christ- even if their understanding of Him might be obscured by false or mistaken doctrine.

Wanna know what to call us? What we are: Christians. If you must be specific, Lutheran. Or Methodist. Or Anglican. Or whatever specific denomination they belong to. Or Non-Roman Catholic, if you insist on defining the world in relation to yourself.