Genesis 18: God Appearing as Three Men

[ethereality]

I’m speaking with an Egyptian Muslim, and tried to convince him that Jacob wrestled with an angel, not with God, in Genesis 32. I began speaking off the top of my head:
myself:

Nasr, the reason you cannot read literally the phrase “I have seen God” is because it contradicts the proper understanding of the passage’s context.
Verses 25-29 make it clear that it was some being from heaven who assumed a human form. Understanding the Old Testament as a whole, the spiritual knowledge of the Israelites, etc., make it clear that it was common knowledge that messengers of God appeared under the guise of being human. Read the book of Tobit as a good example of these kinds of stories.
We can turn also to where God visited Abraham on his way to Sodom, and look at how the context of that passage is different, where it actually WAS God, and not God’s messengers.
usccb.org/nab/bible/genesis/genesis18.htm
Genesis chapter 18. Right at the very beginning, verse 1: “The LORD appeared”.
God’s presence is clearly identified. If Jacob were wrestling with God, it would have been obvious.
Note here, by the way, that Abraham saw “three men”
God appears as three persons yet one being.
One being, verse 1, “The LORD appeared to Abraham” – one being, God is one.
Verse 2: “Looking up, [Abraham] saw three men standing nearby” – Three persons, God existing as three persons.
See also verse 22 “While the two men walked on farther toward Sodom, the LORD remained standing before Abraham” – I am not an expert theologian, so I can’t tell you which person is identified as “the LORD” – I am inclined to think that it is the Father. Anyway, this verse can be taken to signify that God is not one person who presents himself in three different forms.
I will ask at forums.catholic-questions.org about this chapter

I realized that I was on shaky ground: The fact that only one of the men appears to speak to Abraham could in fact suggest that the LORD is only one person, and that the other two men were simply images or angels, since neither of them talk to Abraham. Or, perhaps the person speaking with Abraham is Jesus, being the mediator between God and man, but I’m sure that contradicts the Old Testament: Every encounter the Israelites had with God, the LORD, was always with God the Father; that Exodus 3:14 explicitly identifies the First Person of the Trinity, from whom everything else comes. Thus St. Paul, speaking as a Jew, refers to the Father simply as “God”, and refers to Jesus as Lord. This point sticks so strongly with me that I tend to disagree with the statement, “Jesus is God” – if ‘God’ names the Father, as St. Paul does, then the statement “Jesus is God” logically means “Jesus is the Father”, which is not true, by virtue of their being two distinct persons.

So, who are each of the three men in Genesis 18? What do each of their actions signify Why would only the Father speak with Abraham if Abraham made a covenant with God, i.e. with all three persons of God?

What can we understand about God and about the Trinity from Genesis 18? Reading one verse further into Genesis 19, it begins “The two angels reached Sodom in the evening”. This appears to identify the other two men not as God but as in fact angels. I recall “The Witness of Isaiah 7:14” by Mark Shea. Two paragraphs that I think apply here:

…] Christ fulfilled, brought to fruition, and was that toward which all the Old Testament was straining and pointing. They mean he was the one toward whom the Law and prophets were being pointed by the Spirit though when the sacred writers themselves did not know quite what they were pointing toward (1 Pet. 1:10–11). This is why the early Church never had difficulty with an issue that vexes modern minds: why the New Testament often takes Old Testament texts out of their immediate context and sees them as applicable to Christ. The early Church does not see the Old Testament as talking about something different from Christ but rather sees it in relationship to him. What appear to us to be separate themes and events in the Old Testament appear to the New Testament writers as so many spokes on a wheel all connected to the hub who is Christ.

For instance, Hebrews 2:13 quotes Isaiah 8:18: “Here I am, and the children God has given me.” In its original context, Isaiah is speaking about his own disciples with no hint of messianic intent behind these words. Yet the author of Hebrews sees Christ, not Isaiah, fulfilling the text anyway. Why? Because Christ and his Church are, most fully, what Isaiah and his disciples were foreshadowing. Isaiah and his disciples do fulfill the passage in an immediate sense, but the early Church sees no particular reason why this forbids the God whom Isaiah worshiped from fulfilling it even more profoundly when he becomes incarnate and establishes the Church. The author of Hebrews, reading the Isaiah passage through the lens of the entire life and ministry of Christ, sees something hidden in it, something Isaiah himself perhaps knew nothing about.

I had thought of the three men as being a sign of the Trinity because our pastor said so one homily a while back. So, am I correct in understanding that the first (literal) meaning of this passage’s three men, Genesis 18:1-19:29, is “God and two angels”? Then, after the divine revelation given to us by Jesus, we may see the three men appearing to Abraham as a sign of the Trinity? (After all, God could have accomplished his will with one powerful angel, rather than two powerful angels, and appeared to Abraham simply with one other, or with seven, etc.)

I think I’ve reasoned through this passage properly (we must not confuse the original meaning with what the passage signifies), but I would like to hear what you have to say: I am a novice apologist, and a physics student, not a theologian.

 

[VetA]

I’m speaking with an Egyptian Muslim, and tried to convince him that Jacob wrestled with an angel, not with God, in Genesis 32. I began speaking off the top of my head:
I realized that I was on shaky ground: The fact that only one of the men appears to speak to Abraham could in fact suggest that the LORD is only one person, and that the other two men were simply images or angels, since neither of them talk to Abraham. Or, perhaps the person speaking with Abraham is Jesus, being the mediator between God and man, but I’m sure that contradicts the Old Testament: Every encounter the Israelites had with God, the LORD, was always with God the Father; that Exodus 3:14 explicitly identifies the First Person of the Trinity, from whom everything else comes. Thus St. Paul, speaking as a Jew, refers to the Father simply as “God”, and refers to Jesus as Lord. This point sticks so strongly with me that I tend to disagree with the statement, “Jesus is God” – if ‘God’ names the Father, as St. Paul does, then the statement “Jesus is God” logically means “Jesus is the Father”, which is not true, by virtue of their being two distinct persons.

So, who are each of the three men in Genesis 18? What do each of their actions signify Why would only the Father speak with Abraham if Abraham made a covenant with God, i.e. with all three persons of God?

What can we understand about God and about the Trinity from Genesis 18? Reading one verse further into Genesis 19, it begins “The two angels reached Sodom in the evening”. This appears to identify the other two men not as God but as in fact angels. I recall “The Witness of Isaiah 7:14” by Mark Shea. Two paragraphs that I think apply here:
I had thought of the three men as being a sign of the Trinity because our pastor said so one homily a while back. So, am I correct in understanding that the first (literal) meaning of this passage’s three men, Genesis 18:1-19:29, is “God and two angels”? Then, after the divine revelation given to us by Jesus, we may see the three men appearing to Abraham as a sign of the Trinity? (After all, God could have accomplished his will with one powerful angel, rather than two powerful angels, and appeared to Abraham simply with one other, or with seven, etc.)

I think I’ve reasoned through this passage properly (we must not confuse the original meaning with what the passage signifies), but I would like to hear what you have to say: I am a novice apologist, and a physics student, not a theologian.

A priest at a parish i go to for a TLM gave a homily about this and he expressly said that they prefigure the trinity

 

[thistle]

The three men in Genesis 18 were ANGELS and not God.

D-R Bible, Haydock Commentary:

Ver. 2.** Men in outward appearance, but angels indeed**. (Hebrews xiii. 2; St. Augustine, City of God xvi. chap. 29.) Some have supposed, that one of them was the Son of God, whom Abraham adored, and who bears throughout the chief authority. Tres vidit et unum adoravit. He saw three and adored one, as we read in the Church office. In the former supposition, which is generally adopted, this adoration was only a civil ceremony, if Abraham considered them as mere men; or it might be mixed with a degree of religious, though inferior veneration, if he imagined they were angels; or in fine, he adored God in his representatives. (Haydock)

The OP is correct about Jacob wrestling with an Angel.

D-R Bible, Hatdock Commentary:

Ver. 24. A man, &c. This was an angel in human shape, as we learn from Osee xii. 4. He is called God, ver. 28 and 30, because he represented the person of the Son of God. This wrestling, in which Jacob, assisted by God, was a match for an angel, was so ordered, (Ver. 28.) that he might learn by this experiment of the divine assistance, that neither Esau, nor any other man, should have power to hurt him. It was also spiritual, as appeareth by his earnest prayer, urging, and at last obtaining the angel’s blessing. (Challoner) — The father will not refuse a good gift to those who ask him with fervour and humility. Jacob had before set us an excellent pattern how to pray, placing his confidence in God, and distrusting himself, ver. 9, &c. (Haydock) — It is not certain, whether Jacob remained alone on the northern or on the southern banks of Jaboc. (Calmet)

 

[DPMartin]

I’m speaking with an Egyptian Muslim, and tried to convince him that Jacob wrestled with an angel, not with God, in Genesis 32. I began speaking off the top of my head:
I realized that I was on shaky ground: The fact that only one of the men appears to speak to Abraham could in fact suggest that the LORD is only one person, and that the other two men were simply images or angels, since neither of them talk to Abraham. Or, perhaps the person speaking with Abraham is Jesus, being the mediator between God and man, but I’m sure that contradicts the Old Testament: Every encounter the Israelites had with God, the LORD, was always with God the Father; that Exodus 3:14 explicitly identifies the First Person of the Trinity, from whom everything else comes. Thus St. Paul, speaking as a Jew, refers to the Father simply as “God”, and refers to Jesus as Lord. This point sticks so strongly with me that I tend to disagree with the statement, “Jesus is God” – if ‘God’ names the Father, as St. Paul does, then the statement “Jesus is God” logically means “Jesus is the Father”, which is not true, by virtue of their being two distinct persons.

So, who are each of the three men in Genesis 18? What do each of their actions signify Why would only the Father speak with Abraham if Abraham made a covenant with God, i.e. with all three persons of God?

What can we understand about God and about the Trinity from Genesis 18? Reading one verse further into Genesis 19, it begins “The two angels reached Sodom in the evening”. This appears to identify the other two men not as God but as in fact angels. I recall “The Witness of Isaiah 7:14” by Mark Shea. Two paragraphs that I think apply here:
I had thought of the three men as being a sign of the Trinity because our pastor said so one homily a while back. So, am I correct in understanding that the first (literal) meaning of this passage’s three men, Genesis 18:1-19:29, is “God and two angels”? Then, after the divine revelation given to us by Jesus, we may see the three men appearing to Abraham as a sign of the Trinity? (After all, God could have accomplished his will with one powerful angel, rather than two powerful angels, and appeared to Abraham simply with one other, or with seven, etc.)

I think I’ve reasoned through this passage properly (we must not confuse the original meaning with what the passage signifies), but I would like to hear what you have to say: I am a novice apologist, and a physics student, not a theologian.

Ethereality

You might take this in to consideration:

The Lord was on his way to examine the situation for himself in Sodom and Gomorrah and communicated that to Abraham who had previously went to battle to save his brother Lot when Lot was captured in the attack of Sodom. And when Lot was rescued from the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah wasn’t it two angels that visited him to take him and his family out of there.

You might be taking one thing and trying to make it fit another. The transfiguration that Peter, John and James saw had nothing to do with the Trinity. But they saw two others with the Lord.

The Trinity is revealed in the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob, (The Father, the Chosen and Sacrificed Son and the Holy Spirit) hence the Apostles born of Holy Spirit just as the twelve sons of Jacob who was renamed by The Lord God (Israel) and the Lord referring to the Israelites as Children of Israel. Those born in the Spirit of God.

Many not all Muslims, are actually descendants of Abraham. Through women other than Sarah. Of which takes some homework to figure out. But that does not mean that they should not know the Lord God. It was Israel that God chose to be priests, and priests of the Most High God dwell in the Home or Place of Righteousness. In the order of Melchizedek.

Gen:14:18: And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.

Hence when Jesus returns it shall be at Jerusalem. Jesus has established His Kingdom in the world in Spirit, and shall come to establish His Kingdom in the world physically starting at Jerusalem. And to the Israelite Jerusalem is the home of Righteousness.

 

[James924]

They are three Angels. Two of them later walk away to Sodom to grab Lot and his Family. They are not the Trinity.

Regarding whether these three Angels were meant to “signifiy” the Triune Nature of God, I suppose that is theoretically possible but I seem to remember reading on the Faith Database that some of the Church Fathers did not believe this to be the case. If I have time today I’ll check it out and post my findings here.

 

[James924]

They are three Angels. Two of them later walk away to Sodom to grab Lot and his Family. They are not the Trinity.

Regarding whether these three Angels were meant to “signifiy” the Triune Nature of God, I suppose that is theoretically possible but I seem to remember reading on the Faith Database that some of the Church Fathers did not believe this to be the case. If I have time today I’ll check it out and post my findings here.

I should stress that this also depends entirely on what you mean by the word “signify.”

 

[DPMartin]

They are three Angels. Two of them later walk away to Sodom to grab Lot and his Family. They are not the Trinity.

Regarding whether these three Angels were meant to “signifiy” the Triune Nature of God, I suppose that is theoretically possible but I seem to remember reading on the Faith Database that some of the Church Fathers did not believe this to be the case. If I have time today I’ll check it out and post my findings here.

James

The Lord not an angle was amongst the three:

20: And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
21: I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

So at lest One was the Lord. He examined for Himself the situation in Sodom and Gomorrah. And common sense would tell you the other two where sent to do His Will according to His Judgement.

 

[twinc]

imho anyone reading Gen.18 carefully can only conclude that here we have the trinity.Abraham recognised what was being disclosed to him viz that God could be incarnate and was even previously and elsewhere - what we have is not that He was just incarnate but that HE dwelt amongst us[Abraham rejoiced to see my day,he saw it and was glad],Abraham bowed down and adored all three as one,addressed all three as one,and was addressed by all three as one.The Jews did not know and neither do most Christians that the one they were presuming was Father was in fact the son e,g.every word presumed to have been spoken by God was spoken by the son[the word of God]including the ten commandments given to Moses etc - more later - twinc

 

[DPMartin]

imho anyone reading Gen.18 carefully can only conclude that here we have the trinity.Abraham recognised what was being disclosed to him viz that God could be incarnate and was even previously and elsewhere - what we have is not that He was just incarnate but that HE dwelt amongst us[Abraham rejoiced to see my day,he saw it and was glad],Abraham bowed down and adored all three as one,addressed all three as one,and was addressed by all three as one.The Jews did not know and neither do most Christians that the one they were presuming was Father was in fact the son e,g.every word presumed to have been spoken by God was spoken by the son[the word of God]including the ten commandments given to Moses etc - more later - twinc

Twinc

Though your point is interesting, I don’t believe there is merit therein.

Just because there are three members involved, does not mean it refers to the Trinity. No more then the seven heads of the dragon in revelations refers to the Seven Lamps or even Churches, mentioned in the same book, does it? The interpretation is in the fulfillment thereof. Three persons, came to Abraham One made Abraham aware of what One was to look upon and decide what to do. Giving Abraham opportunity to plead his case before the Lord in the Presence of the Lord, for the Lord knew Abraham had genuine concern for Lot. Note the fulfillment of this revelation, two went to do the will decided. If it were the Trinity, One would not be without the other. and three would have went, to get Lot.

But it takes one body to present the Father Son and Holy Ghost as One. It doesn’t take three bodies to present one dwelling place. For the Trinity dwells as One. One not without nor separate from the other. The Truth and fulfillment of that, is shown in Jesus Christ, and taught and proven in Jesus Christ of Nazareth. God is Spirit, not body, therefore Father Son and Holy Ghost are One. Otherwise your statement implying, One and the same would not be true. If One and the same, why three different dwelling places (bodies)?

But of the Father through the Son (Word of God) is the Presence of God (Holy Spirit) known.

Just as your will is known, by your expression thereof in your presence. This doesn’t require three bodies, does it?

But the characteristics revealed in Abraham Isaac and Jacob of the three are revealed in the three as God revealing Himself through them just as He revealed the twelve Children of Israel as the twelve born of Spirit. That are of the Three in One, revealed in the Son of Man, Jesus Christ.

Did three speak to Abraham? Or did One speak? Therefore One dwelling place of God. There is one Tabernacle one Temple and one Christ Jesus, One dwelling place of God. Though He has many that have the power to become son’s of God, in the Holy Spirit, through the Son (God’s Word).

In Him are we, He being the core of our existance. He is the same always, hence we are the ones that move in subjection to Him. The Holy One of Isreal.

 

[twinc]

Twinc

Though your point is interesting, I don’t believe there is merit therein.

Just because there are three members involved, does not mean it refers to the Trinity. No more then the seven heads of the dragon in revelations refers to the Seven Lamps or even Churches, mentioned in the same book, does it? The interpretation is in the fulfillment thereof. Three persons, came to Abraham One made Abraham aware of what One was to look upon and decide what to do. Giving Abraham opportunity to plead his case before the Lord in the Presence of the Lord, for the Lord knew Abraham had genuine concern for Lot. Note the fulfillment of this revelation, two went to do the will decided. If it were the Trinity, One would not be without the other. and three would have went, to get Lot.

But it takes one body to present the Father Son and Holy Ghost as One. It doesn’t take three bodies to present one dwelling place. For the Trinity dwells as One. One not without nor separate from the other. The Truth and fulfillment of that, is shown in Jesus Christ, and taught and proven in Jesus Christ of Nazareth. God is Spirit, not body, therefore Father Son and Holy Ghost are One. Otherwise your statement implying, One and the same would not be true. If One and the same, why three different dwelling places (bodies)?

But of the Father through the Son (Word of God) is the Presence of God (Holy Spirit) known.

Just as your will is known, by your expression thereof in your presence. This doesn’t require three bodies, does it?

But the characteristics revealed in Abraham Isaac and Jacob of the three are revealed in the three as God revealing Himself through them just as He revealed the twelve Children of Israel as the twelve born of Spirit. That are of the Three in One, revealed in the Son of Man, Jesus Christ.

Did three speak to Abraham? Or did One speak? Therefore One dwelling place of God. There is one Tabernacle one Temple and one Christ Jesus, One dwelling place of God. Though He has many that have the power to become son’s of God, in the Holy Spirit, through the Son (God’s Word).

In Him are we, He being the core of our existance. He is the same always, hence we are the ones that move in subjection to Him. The Holy One of Isreal.

Abraham rejoiced to see God as trinity and God as incarnate and bowed down and adored God as human - God in His divine nature can just as easily be three as man in his human nature can be three seperate individuals but all three just as human as each other

 

[twinc]

Twinc

Though your point is interesting, I don’t believe there is merit therein.

Just because there are three members involved, does not mean it refers to the Trinity. No more then the seven heads of the dragon in revelations refers to the Seven Lamps or even Churches, mentioned in the same book, does it? The interpretation is in the fulfillment thereof. Three persons, came to Abraham One made Abraham aware of what One was to look upon and decide what to do. Giving Abraham opportunity to plead his case before the Lord in the Presence of the Lord, for the Lord knew Abraham had genuine concern for Lot. Note the fulfillment of this revelation, two went to do the will decided. If it were the Trinity, One would not be without the other. and three would have went, to get Lot.

But it takes one body to present the Father Son and Holy Ghost as One. It doesn’t take three bodies to present one dwelling place. For the Trinity dwells as One. One not without nor separate from the other. The Truth and fulfillment of that, is shown in Jesus Christ, and taught and proven in Jesus Christ of Nazareth. God is Spirit, not body, therefore Father Son and Holy Ghost are One. Otherwise your statement implying, One and the same would not be true. If One and the same, why three different dwelling places (bodies)?

But of the Father through the Son (Word of God) is the Presence of God (Holy Spirit) known.

Just as your will is known, by your expression thereof in your presence. This doesn’t require three bodies, does it?

But the characteristics revealed in Abraham Isaac and Jacob of the three are revealed in the three as God revealing Himself through them just as He revealed the twelve Children of Israel as the twelve born of Spirit. That are of the Three in One, revealed in the Son of Man, Jesus Christ.

Did three speak to Abraham? Or did One speak? Therefore One dwelling place of God. There is one Tabernacle one Temple and one Christ Jesus, One dwelling place of God. Though He has many that have the power to become son’s of God, in the Holy Spirit, through the Son (God’s Word).

In Him are we, He being the core of our existance. He is the same always, hence we are the ones that move in subjection to Him. The Holy One of Isreal.

so who is or was the one you are supposedly calling or naming as the Lord was it the Father or the ison doing all the visiting and promosing etc - who was Abraham preferably talking to etc - btw was it God the Father or God the son[as the word of God] that spoke to Abraham re the sacrifice of his son Isaac and later on to Moses face to face etc - twinc

 

[thistle]

so who is or was the one you are supposedly calling or naming as the Lord was it the Father or the ison doing all the visiting and promosing etc - who was Abraham preferably talking to etc - btw was it God the Father or God the son[as the word of God] that spoke to Abraham re the sacrifice of his son Isaac and later on to Moses face to face etc - twinc

You are digressing. Get back on topic.
The three who appeared was not God in human form.
They were three angels who appeared as representatives of God.

 

[twinc]

You are digressing. Get back on topic.
The three who appeared was not God in human form.
They were three angels who appeared as representatives of God.

three angels were they "thou shalt not adore them nor serve them"for I am the Lord thy God - I am the Lord thy God that spoke to Moses face to face - twinc

 

[thistle]

three angels were they "thou shalt not adore them nor serve them"for I am the Lord thy God - I am the Lord thy God that spoke to Moses face to face - twinc

Interesting that the other posters and even St Augustine disagrees with you but of course as usual you know better than everyone.

See post #3.

 

[twinc]

Interesting that the other posters and even St Augustine disagrees with you but of course as usual you know better than everyone.

See post #3.

everyone except you of course - even the great Augustine is not infallible and has made unacceptable statements - twinc

 

[DPMartin]

Thistle

I don’t see where all three are the Trinity, but the man has a point. Would Abraham bow to any one other then the Lord?

Gen 18:

1: And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
2: And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,
3: And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:

He ran to meet them and said My Lord.
Since the Lord Himself declared that Abraham was His Friend, would Abraham who had such a relationship with the Lord God Almighty recognize when he (Abraham) was in the Presence of the Lord his God? And the Scripture plainly states that the Lord appeared unto Abraham.

So whether the Lord was there or not is not the question in this case it is whether the three was a revelation of “Trinity” or not.

 

[DPMartin]

Twinc

Thanks for the reply

I don’t get your insistence that the three men are the Trinity, facts are facts, and the Scriptures read out to describe other then your view, as far as I can see.

Do angles make decisions, or carry out commands, then why would Abraham who knows his God ask an angle to make a decision, of Judgement. Abraham sot the Lord to agree, for Abraham knew that once the Lord God agreed it was done. Abraham is not a fool, he knew who he was talking to. But two carried out the Judgement of the One who agreed with Abraham. And which One of three Abraham got agreement from must of been the Lord. And your question of which one, I wasn’t there, nor were you, and there is no ref. declaring the three as one, there in the Scripture nor anywhere else in the OT, and the NT that I am aware of, nor heard of anyone using to verify that the three are revelation of the Trinity.

 

[ethereality]

Thistle,

The footnote you referenced declaring them angels refers to the two ‘men’ with the Lord, not to all three. The literal understanding of the text is that “the LORD appeared to Abraham” with two angels, who continue on to do the Lord’s bidding.

 

[DPMartin]

Twinc

The only place in Scripture where there might be fulfillment (that I can find) of the three persons visiting Abraham, is that the Lord also made Abraham and Sarah aware of the time of the birth of the chosen heir that they hoped for. Note: God’s chosen, they, Abraham and Sarah, sot to fulfill this themselves, earlier. And the three men from afar that made Herod and his court aware of the time of the birth of the Chosen Heir (King of Israel) by their asking where He was. Of which, if my memory serves, Jerusalem was all a buzz about after recieving that news.

 

[twinc]

Twinc

The only place in Scripture where there might be fulfillment (that I can find) of the three persons visiting Abraham, is that the Lord also made Abraham and Sarah aware of the time of the birth of the chosen heir that they hoped for. Note: God’s chosen, they, Abraham and Sarah, sot to fulfill this themselves, earlier. And the three men from afar that made Herod and his court aware of the time of the birth of the Chosen Heir (King of Israel) by their asking where He was. Of which, if my memory serves, Jerusalem was all a buzz about after recieving that news.

Yes but it must be asked why three - just before the Lord had appeared to Abraham on his ownand elsewhere only one angelwas sent.Do we not also here have an incarnation before the word was made flesh and dwelt amongst us.Was the one who. is seen as the Lord the Father or the son - twinc