Genesis 3:14-15

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Vico said:
Only Adam and Eve were given Eden and descendants were never destined to live there.
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You never explained why God, while both Adam and Eve were in the Garden, told them to “be fruitful and multiply”

This order took place IN the Garden.

Was God just trolling them saying “suckers, your kids will never be here hahahaha”? I doubt that.

God CLEARLY intended to have Adam and Eve’s children in the Garden. Adam and Eve sinned and God changed his plan.
The Church describes consequences not punishment for actual sin, for the descendants.
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I know but how is it the cawse?

Both “consequences” and “punishment” are imposed by God and have suffering involved.

Who do you think wrote the consequences? Adam And Eve didn’t. I think they’d want to be back in the Garden. I definitely do!
 
BobCatholic said:
You never explained why God, while both Adam and Eve were in the Garden, told them to “be fruitful and multiply”

This order took place IN the Garden.

Was God just trolling them saying “suckers, your kids will never be here hahahaha”? I doubt that.

God CLEARLY intended to have Adam and Eve’s children in the Garden. Adam and Eve sinned and God changed his plan.

I know but how is it the cause?

Both “consequences” and “punishment” are imposed by God and have suffering involved.

Who do you think wrote the consequences? Adam And Eve didn’t. I think they’d want to be back in the Garden. I definitely do!
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I answered that question in post 141. God know what will happen so has planned redemption since the beginning of creation. Only Adam and Eve are predestined to live in the Garden of Eden until their fall, even though commanded to be fruitful and multiply. When they will actually be fruitful is know to God.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=14410349&postcount=141

Here in the Catechism the Church talks about the mystery of how the sin of Adam became original sin (analogical sin) for all his descendants. Original sin is “transmitted by propagation to all mankind”.

404 How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam “as one body of one man”.293 By this “unity of the human race” all men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as all are implicated in Christ’s justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state.294 It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called “sin” only in an analogical sense: it is a sin “contracted” and not “committed” - a state and not an act.
 
Vico said:
I answered that question in post 141. God know what will happen so has planned redemption since the beginning of creation. Only Adam and Eve are predestined to live in the Garden of Eden until their fall, even though commanded to be fruitful and multiply. When they will actually be fruitful is know to God.
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So when God said to them to be fruitful and multiply while in the garden, he never intended for Adam’s children to be in the Garden. You’re saying God was trolling them basically.
404 How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam “as one body of one man”.293 By this “unity of the human race” all men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as all are implicated in Christ’s justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state.294 It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called “sin” only in an analogical sense: it is a sin “contracted” and not “committed” - a state and not an act.
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If we are implicated in Adam’s sin and thus we are held temporally responsible for Adam’s sin. No mystery there. We’re not in the Garden of Eden.

I believe that because God makes it horrifically difficult for someone to become acceptable to him by participating in his grace, but it is ridiculously easy to offend God and fail him - our free will is seriously degraded if not eliminated. Sometimes I question if we have free will.
 
BobCatholic said:
So when God said to them to be fruitful and multiply while in the garden, he never intended for Adam’s children to be in the Garden. You’re saying God was trolling them basically.

If we are implicated in Adam’s sin and thus we are held temporally responsible for Adam’s sin. No mystery there. We’re not in the Garden of Eden.

I believe that because God makes it horrifically difficult for someone to become acceptable to him by participating in his grace, but it is ridiculously easy to offend God and fail him - our free will is seriously degraded if not eliminated. Sometimes I question if we have free will.
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Being held temporally responsible can only be an* analogy *since the sin for us is only an analogy (contracted not committed), but the most important teaching of the Church is that we are born with original sin, so that we need baptism to remove it, then being capable of merit and of giving glory to God in heaven.

It is a dogma of faith that we have been given free will (Council of Trent). From Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, p. 246, 247, 256:
  • The Human Will remains free under the influence of efficacious grace, which is not irresistible. (De fide.)
  • There is a grace which is truly sufficient and yet remains inefficacious (gratia vere et mere sufficiens). (De fide.)
  • Supernatural grace is a participation in the divine nature. (Sent. certa.)
 
Vico said:
Being held temporally responsible can only be an* analogy *since the sin for us is only an analogy (contracted not committed),
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It is not just an analogy. It is also reality.

You will notice there are no plane tickets available to the Garden of Eden.

God holds us temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors.
It is a dogma of faith that we have been given free will (Council of Trent). From Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, p. 246, 247, 256:
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  • The Human Will remains free under the influence of efficacious grace, which is not irresistible. (De fide.)
  • There is a grace which is truly sufficient and yet remains inefficacious (gratia vere et mere sufficiens). (De fide.)
  • Supernatural grace is a participation in the divine nature. (Sent. certa.)
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But does God’s grace operate to remove imperfections? If not, those imperfections remain and keep the will from being truly free.

An alcoholic that doesn’t have his alcoholism cured by the grace of God will never conquer that sin.
 
BobCatholic said:
It is not just an analogy. It is also reality.

You will notice there are no plane tickets available to the Garden of Eden.

God holds us temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors.

But does God’s grace operate to remove imperfections? If not, those imperfections remain and keep the will from being truly free.

An alcoholic that doesn’t have his alcoholism cured by the grace of God will never conquer that sin.
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We are not liable to be called to account as the primary cause, motive, or agent for original sin of Adam and Eve, so that is why it is analogy. The descendants were predestined to experience this world with death.

Yes, God always makes the first move to save us and we cannot save ourselves without the grace of God. If we reject it, then we are lost for a time, perhaps forever, as God will not overcome our will, but perhaps we will cooperate with grace later.
 
Vico said:
We are not liable to be called to account as the primary cause, motive, or agent for original sin of Adam and Eve, so that is why it is analogy. The descendants were predestined to experience this world with death.
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I agree. We are not responsible, temporally or spiritually or in any way for the sins of our ancestors. Deuteronomy 24.

Yet here we are. We are held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors. I canot find any flights to the Garden of Eden.
Yes, God always makes the first move to save us and we cannot save ourselves without the grace of God. If we reject it, then we are lost for a time, perhaps forever, as God will not overcome our will, but perhaps we will cooperate with grace later.
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And if God doesn’t move (remember, I’ve been trying to get closer to him and failing miserably all my life), then what can I do?

If I ask for help in removing my imperfections and God says “no” then I’m pretty much doomed to fail.
 
BobCatholic said:
I agree. We are not responsible, temporally or spiritually or in any way for the sins of our ancestors. Deuteronomy 24.

Yet here we are. We are held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors. I canot find any flights to the Garden of Eden.

And if God doesn’t move (remember, I’ve been trying to get closer to him and failing miserably all my life), then what can I do?

If I ask for help in removing my imperfections and God says “no” then I’m pretty much doomed to fail.
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God gives the grace even before conversion and you must cooperate with it. If one is so far into habits of sin that the sin cannot be stopped, then the culpability is changed. This is a lifelong task for some.

Catechism

1735 Imputability and responsibility for an action can be diminished or even nullified by ignorance, inadvertence, duress, fear, habit, inordinate attachments, and other psychological or social factors.

Catechism 2352 has:

To form an equitable judgment about the subjects’ moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety or other psychological or social factors that lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability.

Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, p. 222

Gratia Gratum Faciens or the grace of sanctification is for all men, and its purpose is the personal sanctification of him who receives it. It makes the receiver pleasing to God (gratum) either by formally sanctifying him (sanctifying grace) or by preparing him for sanctification, or by preserving and increasing his sanctification (actual grace). Gratia gratis data is given to secure for men gratia gratum faciens. This latter then is more sublime and more valuable than the former. Cf. 1 Cor. 12, 31 et seq.
 
Vico said:
God gives the grace even before conversion and you must cooperate with it. If one is so far into habits of sin that the sin cannot be stopped, then the culpability is changed. This is a lifelong task for some.
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I can’t afford to wait a lifetime, I need healing of my imperfections now. Otherwise, my entire life is useless, worthless and it was better if I never was born.
 
BobCatholic said:
… remember, I’ve been trying to get closer to him and failing miserably all my life … If I ask for help in removing my imperfections and God says “no” then I’m pretty much doomed to fail.
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To err is human, to forgive is divine (and, God calls us to forgive one another as well).

St. Paul writes eloquently in his letters (epistles) about God not removing imperfections despite Paul’s repeated pleas to God to do so.

Paul also writes about the dilemma of knowing the perfect good that he should do, yet being unable to do it. For example, see Romans Ch. 7, beginning with verse 14:

We know that the law is spiritual; but I am carnal, sold into slavery to sin. What I do, I do not understand. For I do not do what I want, but I do what I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I concur that the law is good. So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that good does not dwell in me, that is, in my flesh. The willing is ready at hand, but doing the good is not. For I do not do the good I want, but I do the evil I do not want. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. So, then, I discover the principle that when I want to do right, evil is at hand. For I take delight in the law of God, in my inner self, l but I see in my members another principle at war with the law of my mind, taking me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Miserable one that I am! Who will deliver me from this mortal body? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Therefore, I myself, with my mind, serve the law of God but, with my flesh, the law of sin.
 
BobCatholic said:
I can’t do anything on my own. I don’t have the strength to work. Too weak. Without him, I am nothing.
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Nobody can gain any merit without the grace of God. Work is using the will to cooperate with the graces given by God. Without exerting the will there is no action and we must act.
 
Vico said:
Nobody can gain any merit without the grace of God. Work is using the will to cooperate with the graces given by God. Without exerting the will there is no action and we must act.
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And how do I cooperate with the grace of God - and here’s the key red alert question - and make sure that God is pleased with me?

I’ve tried all my life to get closer to God and failed. I only have a corporate relationship with God, not a personal one.
 
BobCatholic said:
And how do I cooperate with the grace of God - and here’s the key red alert question - and make sure that God is pleased with me?

I’ve tried all my life to get closer to God and failed. I only have a corporate relationship with God, not a personal one.
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One participates through sanctifying grace. Catechism.

1990 Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon God’s merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God. It frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals.
 
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