Genesis 3:14-15

[BobCatholic]

The Garden of Eden was only for Adam and Eve.

No, it was for man (as in mankind). This was supposed to be our home on earth.

God said “be fruitful and multiply” well, where do you think he intended that to happen? He intended that to be IN the garden of eden.

We are held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors.

 

[Vico]

No, it was for man (as in mankind). This was supposed to be our home on earth.

God said “be fruitful and multiply” well, where do you think he intended that to happen? He intended that to be IN the garden of eden.

We are held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors.

God always knew what would happen so knew that Adam and Eve would choose to sin, even though giving sanctifying grace sufficient for them to avoid it. Therefore Adam and Eve were never destined to continue to live in the Garden of Eden, and the descendants were never destined to live in the Garden of Eden (i.e., to receive the preternatural gift of physical immortality).

 

[BobCatholic]

God always knew what would happen so knew that Adam and Eve would choose to sin, even though giving sanctifying grace sufficient for them to avoid it. Therefore Adam and Eve were never destined to continue to live in the Garden of Eden, and the descendants were never destined to live in the Garden of Eden (i.e., to receive the preternatural gift of physical immortality).

I don’t care about physical immortality on earth, I just want to be able to live in Paradise with only one rule. But we are temporally held responsible for the sins of our ancestors, so no Garden for us.

 

[Vico]

I don’t care about physical immortality on earth, I just want to be able to live in Paradise with only one rule. But we are temporally held responsible for the sins of our ancestors, so no Garden for us.

It was never a possibility that we would be in the Garden of Eden. You seem to be thinking that the Garden of Eden is not terrestrial. We are destined for eternal heaven or hell, but not the Garden of Eden. Catholic Encyclopedia has:
According to Catholic theology based on the Biblical account, the original condition of our first parents was one of perfect innocence and integrity. By the latter is meant that they were endowed with many prerogatives which, while pertaining to the natural order, were not due to human nature as such–hence they are sometimes termed preternatural. Principal among these were a high degree of infused knowledge, bodily immortality and freedom from pain, and immunity from evil impulses or inclinations. In other words, the lower or animal nature in man was perfectly subjected to the control of reason and the will. Besides this, our first parents were also endowed with sanctifying grace by which they were elevated to the supernatural order. But all these gratuitous endowments were forfeited through the disobedience of Adam “in whom all have sinned”, and who was “a figure of Him who was to come” (Romans 5) and restore fallen man, not to an earthly, but to a heavenly paradise.
Driscoll, J.F. (1912). Terrestrial Paradise. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. newadvent.org/cathen/14519a.htm

 

[BobCatholic]

It was never a possibility that we would be in the Garden of Eden.

That is false.

The Garden of Eden was meant to be our temporary holding place until we get to our final destination.

Otherwise, God would never have told Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply. Clearly God intended to have Adam and Eve’s children in the Garden. Otherwise, his command makes no sense and is just a cruel joke. “HA HA I’m just trolling you Adam!”: No, that’s not God’s way.

You seem to be thinking that the Garden of Eden is not terrestrial.

I don’t.

It was here on earth. There was a particular location, an address.

I ask this question frequently:

If we are not held temporally responsible for the sin of Adam and Eve, please tell me what time is the next flight to the Garden of Eden?

Nobody answers that question. And clearly I believe it is terrestrial.

There would be flights to the Garden of Eden if were still open to us on earth.

Now, do I care about the Garden of Eden once I’m in heaven? Of course not. I know heaven is supposed to be our permanent home. The Garden Of Eden was meant to be our TEMPORARY home, prior to the final trip to heaven.

 

[Vico]

That is false.

The Garden of Eden was meant to be our temporary holding place until we get to our final destination.

Otherwise, God would never have told Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply. Clearly God intended to have Adam and Eve’s children in the Garden. Otherwise, his command makes no sense and is just a cruel joke. “HA HA I’m just trolling you Adam!”: No, that’s not God’s way.

I don’t.

It was here on earth. There was a particular location, an address.

I ask this question frequently:

If we are not held temporally responsible for the sin of Adam and Eve, please tell me what time is the next flight to the Garden of Eden?

Nobody answers that question. And clearly I believe it is terrestrial.

There would be flights to the Garden of Eden if were still open to us on earth.

Now, do I care about the Garden of Eden once I’m in heaven? Of course not. I know heaven is supposed to be our permanent home. The Garden Of Eden was meant to be our TEMPORARY home, prior to the final trip to heaven.

God planned redemption from the start of creation, knowing all things. He also knew that only Adam and Eve would live temporarily in the Garden of Eden. So the idea that mankind could live there is only said as a potential, for God did give Adam and Eve sufficient grace not to fall, but knew that they would.

Glad to hear you are thinking it is terrestrial.

Being fruitful and multiplying was after the fall.

Genesis 3:20 The man gave his wife the name “Eve,” because she was the mother of all the living.*.

• [3:20] The man gives his wife a more specific name than “woman” (2:23). The Hebrew name hawwa (“Eve”) is related to the Hebrew word hay (“living”); “mother of all the living” points forward to the next episode involving her sons Cain and Abel.

Genesis 4:1 The man had intercourse with his wife Eve, and she conceived and gave birth to Cain, saying, “I have produced a male child with the help of the LORD.”*

• [4:1] The Hebrew name qayin (“Cain”) and the term qaniti (“I have produced”) present a wordplay that refers to metalworking; such wordplays are frequent in Genesis.

 

[BobCatholic]

God planned redemption from the start of creation, knowing all things. He also knew that only Adam and Eve would live temporarily in the Garden of Eden. So the idea that mankind could live there is only said as a potential, for God did give Adam and Eve sufficient grace not to fall, but knew that they would.

God intended one thing, man did another, so redemption planned before the fact. God knew Adam and Eve would fail because they were imperfect.

Being fruitful and multiplying was after the fall.

But the command was given BEFORE the fall. Thus he intended it to be in the garden - until the fall happened. If it was not intended to be done in the garden, then God was just trolling our ancestors - NOT something I believe.

Are you saying God purposely gives us commands that we cannot fulfill? Talk about setting up people to fail!

 

[Vico]

God intended one thing, man did another, so redemption planned before the fact. God knew Adam and Eve would fail because they were imperfect.

But the command was given BEFORE the fall. Thus he intended it to be in the garden - until the fall happened. If it was not intended to be done in the garden, then God was just trolling our ancestors - NOT something I believe.

Are you saying God purposely gives us commands that we cannot fulfill? Talk about setting up people to fail!

I think you do not understand the Catholic teaching about predestination. God knows all that will occur, but gives grace to overcome the natural human imperfections. When the grace that is given is rejected it is called merely sufficient, but when it is cooperated with it is called efficacious.

Adam and Eve could fulfill all commands given (that was their potential). God knew they would fail so knew he would not give to mankind what Adam and Eve had.

 

[BobCatholic]

I think you do not understand the Catholic teaching about predestination. God knows all that will occur, but gives grace to overcome the natural human imperfections.

God clearly didn’t give Adam and Eve that grace, because they fell.

Adam and Eve could fulfill all commands given (that was their potential). God knew they would fail so knew he would not give to mankind what Adam and Eve had.

If they COULD they WOULD have.

But they had imperfections.

I’m going to add another to the list of imperfections: Ignorance. They didn’t know that the snake was untrustworthy. They didn’t know a lot of things, that they needed to know. They didn’t know what God meant “you will die” - that it was a spiritual death and that would lead them to be kicked out of the garden. God did not communicate these things.

God expected man to read his mind. So I’ll add lack of mind reading ability as another imperfection.

I’m surprised Adam and Eve could even breathe properly, because their software was so buggy.

 

[Vico]

God clearly didn’t give Adam and Eve that grace, because they fell.

If they COULD they WOULD have.

But they had imperfections.

I’m going to add another to the list of imperfections: Ignorance. They didn’t know that the snake was untrustworthy. They didn’t know a lot of things, that they needed to know. They didn’t know what God meant “you will die” - that it was a spiritual death and that would lead them to be kicked out of the garden. God did not communicate these things.

God expected man to read his mind. So I’ll add lack of mind reading ability as another imperfection.

I’m surprised Adam and Eve could even breathe properly, because their software was so buggy.

They did have that grace. It is a Catholic dogma of faith from the Council of Trent, that:

• Our first parents, before the Fall, were endowed with sanctifying grace. (De fide.)

See Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott, p. 103

 

[BobCatholic]

They did have that grace. It is a Catholic dogma of faith from the Council of Trent, that:

• Our first parents, before the Fall, were endowed with sanctifying grace. (De fide.)

See Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott, p. 103

Yes, but WHICH grace?

Did he give them the grace of having their imperfections disappear? No.
Did he give them the grace of allowing Adam and Eve ask for forgiveness? No.
Did he give them the grace of fixing the mistake they made and staying in the garden? No.

 

[Vico]

Yes, but WHICH grace?

Did he give them the grace of having their imperfections disappear? No.
Did he give them the grace of allowing Adam and Eve ask for forgiveness? No.
Did he give them the grace of fixing the mistake they made and staying in the garden? No.

The Catholic Church uses the word grace to refer to charisms, actual grace, and habitual (sanctifying) grace.

2024 Sanctifying grace makes us “pleasing to God.” Charisms, special graces of the Holy Spirit, are oriented to sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. God also acts through many actual graces, to be distinguished from habitual grace which is permanent in us.

You are referring to gifts but not all gifts are supernatural.

For the first gift, it is achieved through actual and sanctifying grace in a lifelong journey.

For the second gift, Adam and Eve may have actually repented during their lives, and be saved, for Christ descended to the underworld and released all the just after his death on the cross.

The first two are derived from supernatural graces.

For the third gift, the preternatural gift of bodily immortality was not ever actualized since they did not eat of the tree of live in the Garden but of the tree of knowledge of good and evil instead. The preternatural gifts of bodily immortality, integrity and infused knowledge are not due to human nature but do not surpass the potential of created nature. So Adam and Eve could not remain in the Garden of Eden with the tree of life, by forfeit. It is in love that God did this.

 

[BobCatholic]

For the first gift, it is achieved through actual and sanctifying grace in a lifelong journey.

So Adam & Eve never had this gift, and never had this grace.

For the second gift, Adam and Eve may have actually repented during their lives, and be saved, for Christ descended to the underworld and released all the just after his death on the cross.

and if they did repent, God apparently didn’t forgive them temporally since they were still outside of the Garden of Eden. This grace was denied.

The third comment does not address my comment.

 

[goout]

Yes, but WHICH grace?

Did he give them the grace of having their imperfections disappear? No.

In a “magical” sense? No of course not.
We are not merely material creatures, we are a unity of body and soul. Bodily imperfections amount to nothing in the grand scheme of things because they cannot kill the soul. We have the hope of living forever in a communion of love with God. God simply gives us the grace to love him, and that is the highest good.

Did he give them the grace of allowing Adam and Eve ask for forgiveness? No.

Yes he did. We always have the grace to ask forgiveness.

Did he give them the grace of fixing the mistake they made and staying in the garden? No.

God gave A&E the grace to return to him. And gives us the grace of returning to him, which means returning his love.
Expecting to stay in the garden denies that sin has consequences.
Consequences do not disprove God’s love.

 

[Vico]

So Adam & Eve never had this gift, and never had this grace.

and if they did repent, God apparently didn’t forgive them temporally since they were still outside of the Garden of Eden. This grace was denied.

The third comment does not address my comment.

Adam and Eve were given sanctifying grace and lost it. The Bible does not comment on their actual final state, so they could be saved. Genesis states that Adam lived 930 years. Temporal punishment for sin is a normal result and may not all be removed when the sin is forgiven.

Your third was: “Did he give them the grace of fixing the mistake they made and staying in the garden? No.”

It does address it. They could not remain there. Being in Eden was a gift but not due to supernatural grace.

 

[BobCatholic]

In a “magical” sense? No of course not.

Not a “magical sense”

More like when someone has gotten their last DUI, sitting in a jail cell getting raped by an inmate, while suffering a hangover from last night’s drinking - will be enough for someone to swear off alcohol forever. This is a natural example. God’s grace SHOULD be able to do this as well - a supernatural thing that God could do for us so we would not have to go through horrific suffering but still have the same result.

God COULD choose to be merciful and make it easier to do the right thing. But that is never the case.

Bodily imperfections amount to nothing in the grand scheme of things because they cannot kill the soul.

They help cause sin which kill the soul, so you are wrong on that.

Expecting to stay in the garden denies that sin has consequences.
Consequences do not disprove God’s love.

Consequences and punishment are the same thing.

Do something wrong, something bad happens. The “something bad” whether you call it “consequences” or “punishment” - it is the same thing.

God imposed the consequences, so it is part of his punishment.

 

[BobCatholic]

Temporal punishment for sin is a normal result and may not all be removed when the sin is forgiven.

Precisely. We are never forgiven for the temporal punishment for Adam and Eve’s sin. God held back. Christ held back.

They could not remain there. Being in Eden was a gift but not due to supernatural grace.

They could not remain there because that was part of the punishment.

Being in Eden was a supernatural grace. Paradise. Communion with God. No suffering. You think that is not supernatural?

 

[Vico]

Precisely. We are never forgiven for the temporal punishment for Adam and Eve’s sin. God held back. Christ held back.

They could not remain there because that was part of the punishment.

Being in Eden was a supernatural grace. Paradise. Communion with God. No suffering. You think that is not supernatural?

Each persons temporal punishment results from each persons actual sin. What the descendants experience from their conception is called consequences not punishments. We do not have any real temporal punishment from Adam and Eve. Any such statement is analogical.

Catechism

404 How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam “as one body of one man”. 293 By this “unity of the human race” all men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as all are implicated in Christ’s justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state. 294 It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called “sin” only in an analogical sense: it is a sin “contracted” and not “committed” - a state and not an act.

The Garden of Eden is not supernatural but natural. Adam and Eve were given two types of gifts: supernatural grace and preternatural gifts. They personally lost those gifts.

Modern Catholic Dictionary

PRETERNATURAL. That which is beyond the natural but is not strictly supernatural. It is preternatural either because natural forces are used by God to produce effects beyond their native capacity, or because above-human forces, angelic or demonic, are active in the world of space and time. (Etym. Latin praeter, beyond + natura, nature.)

 

[BobCatholic]

Each persons temporal punishment results from each persons actual sin. What the descendants experience from their conception is called consequences not punishments. We do not have any real temporal punishment from Adam and Eve. Any such statement is analogical.

There is no difference between punishment and consequences. God imposed both because of the sin of Adam and Eve.

We are held temporally responsible for their sins.

If what you say is true, please tell me when is the next flight to the Garden of Eden, so I can get tickets for me and my family.

The Garden of Eden is not supernatural but natural. Adam and Eve were given two types of gifts: supernatural grace and preternatural gifts. They personally lost those gifts.

Impossible.

An angel was placed at the gate of the garden, that’s supernatural.
The Tree of Life was not a natural tree.
The Garden was a place of paradise without any suffering, this is not natural.
The Garden allowed man to live in the presence of God and have a personal relationship with him.

All of this points to the Garden having supernatural characteristics, in addition to the obvious natural characteristics.

Think of the burning bush in the desert. The bush was natural. The fire was natural. The cause of the fire was supernatural.

Think of human beings - flesh and spirit. Natural and supernatural.

Just like Christ - natural and supernatural.

Did you not know the Garden is also metaphor to how we relate to God (in addition to a real place)? Both natural and supernatural. If what you say is true, we can only relate to God on a natural way, and that idea makes null the wonderful actions of Christ.

 

[Vico]

There is no difference between punishment and consequences. God imposed both because of the sin of Adam and Eve.

We are held temporally responsible for their sins.

If what you say is true, please tell me when is the next flight to the Garden of Eden, so I can get tickets for me and my family.

Impossible.

An angel was placed at the gate of the garden, that’s supernatural.
The Tree of Life was not a natural tree.
The Garden was a place of paradise without any suffering, this is not natural.
The Garden allowed man to live in the presence of God and have a personal relationship with him.

All of this points to the Garden having supernatural characteristics, in addition to the obvious natural characteristics.

Think of the burning bush in the desert. The bush was natural. The fire was natural. The cause of the fire was supernatural.

Think of human beings - flesh and spirit. Natural and supernatural.

Just like Christ - natural and supernatural.

Did you not know the Garden is also metaphor to how we relate to God (in addition to a real place)? Both natural and supernatural. If what you say is true, we can only relate to God on a natural way, and that idea makes null the wonderful actions of Christ.

We agreed earlier that the Garden of Eden was terrestrial not heavenly. Only Adam and Eve were given Eden and descendants were never destined to live there.

I gave you the Catechism items that show what the Church teaches, especially that original sin is analogical (not actual) sin, in descendants. The Church describes consequences not punishment for actual sin, for the descendants.