Genesis details

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grannymh said:
Because this thread pertains to “Genesis details…” I can return to studying Adam and Eve as described by an author who may have been a philosopher or theologian….
In my humble opinion, in this thread, we should use the framework of those famous chapters in Genesis. What is fascinating to me is that I can read a passage over and over again, put it down, and the next time I find a deeper meaning in it. I am willing to bet that you, and many readers, experience the same thing…. The Catholic Church has defined specific doctrines which flow from Genesis.
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Though not a Catholic myself, I’ve learned a lot from wonderful Catholic scholarship. Here’s something I recommend on the topic of this thread:
Some Lessons from Genesis by Father Bruce Vawter, C.M.:
kofc.org/un/en/resources/cis/cis321.pdf
 
cfauster said:
Here’s another by the same author, called God’s Story of Creation.
kofc.org/un/en/resources/cis/cis348.pdf
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In regard to the links in post 101-102, I could not immediately find a reference to the *current *natural science theories regarding the origin of the human species as a population and not from a single set of parents. Even if I missed the reference, which is a possibility, it is not important to this thread – since that reference is not a Genesis detail.

The date of the links reminded me that it is time for me to take a break from CAF and continue scientific and theological research for Adam and Eve. I am sincerely grateful to CAF for all the information members have provided, including links, some of which need further attention on my part. When practical, I will return to CAF with more information and/or different ways to look at the information we already have. Until then, may God give all of you, Members, Guests, Moderators, Administration, including Tech Support, many, many blessings.
 
cfauster said:
. . . Some Lessons from Genesis by Father Bruce Vawter, C.M.:
kofc.org/un/en/resources/cis/cis321.pdf
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Thank you for the link. It had been some time since I had read this.

With regards to one early paragraph:
Thus, though the story of the first chapter of Genesis is “adapted to the understanding of a less developed people,” it is adapted to our own understanding as well. It still tells its simple yet profound truths in language that all can understand, quite independently of whatever may be their degree of scientific knowledge.
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I laughed to myself about this, thinking that perhaps it was written for people far more advanced scientifically than we are.
Take for example the idea that God created the world in six days. This sounds absurd given our perception and understanding of time. We see things happen distinctly when they occur at at a rate of less than 30 per second. That is why videos, movies go at that rate; slow things down and one sees individual pictures. A mongoose on the other hand lives life at a far faster pace; we are slow plodding creatures in its experiential world. At any rate we have a concept of time traditionally based on the movement of celestial bodies in space and more recently the breakdown of radioactive materials. As people have noted, God’s time frame is not ours. Perhaps in the universe itself, space-time actually was divided into sectors not strictly conforming to our concept of time as some sort of uniform entity based on our scale of measurement. We could be now in the seventh day of universal time - really.
 
grannymh said:
In regard to the links in post 101-102, I could not immediately find a reference to the *current *natural science theories regarding the origin of the human species as a population and not from a single set of parents.
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In Some Lessons from Genesis on page 19 there is the following:
To say that the Biblical authors presupposed that
mankind began from a single man and woman, however, is not
the same thing as to say that the Bible teaches this. It had no
obvious purpose in doing so, and it would be difficult to show
that it does indeed intend to teach such a detail concerning the
origin of the human race.What it does teach, however, as we
shall see in a moment, is that sin and evil have been introduced
into the world through man’s free will, contrary to the intention
of God in creating him. Furthermore, not only in Genesis but
also throughout the Bible it is taught that all mankind has been
caught up in sin (see Gn 8:21; Rom 3:9), and that one man is
responsible for the fact that all men have been constituted
sinners (Rom 5:12). This is the revealed doctrine of “original
sin.”Theologians have always understood this to mean that sin
has been transmitted from one generation to another, and that
revelation therefore presupposes that all of sinful mankind is
descended from that one “through whom sin entered into the
world.” Whatever may have been its beginnings in creation,
therefore, it would seem that the present human race at least
has a common ancestor. This is the conclusion that Pope Pius
XII presented to us in an encyclical letter to the Church in
1950.
That seems to cohere with your position as I understand it, grannymh.

God’s blessings on your scientific and theological research for Adam and Eve. I too am sincerely grateful to you and others on CAF, and I’m sure many of us look forward to your return.
 
Any Catholic interested in what the Church teaches, should obviously go to the source.
The Church rejects polygenism.This has been discussed at nauseum in the forums, but there are people who will continue to try and undermine your faith.
 
cfauster said:
Mark Shea is trying to undermine your faith? Really? He just wrote By What Authority as a rousing defense of the Roman Catholic Church, that’s all.
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I was referring to you.
The Church teaches monogenism. There is no issue other than that you and others do not believe this.
If you are going to challenge official church dogma, say so, that you do not believe the Church is teaching what is true with regards to Adam and Eve.
People would then have a greater awareness of what they are doing following your links.
 
I appreciate your concern.

I’m not sure you understand what I am trying to accomplish, however.

Perhaps you think I am trying to undermine Catholic teaching regarding Adam and Eve by posting links to Catholic teaching regarding Adam and Eve.

Granted, you might choose different links.

But again, Mark Shea refers to precisely the same links you use!

He is going to the same source you are recommending (Humani Generis, for example).

You can disagree with his comments and reflections. You can wish he were not among the apologists on Catholic Answers.

What you will not find, however, is any specific condemnation from official sources of current Catholic theologians who are prepared to distinguish between biological and theological monogenism.
 
God created heaven and earth - that which is of the spirit and that which is material.
Out of this earth He brought forth plants, animals and ultimately man.
God breathed on what He had formed and we came into existence - a unity of spirit and matter.

Breath is life. As trees wave in the unseen wind, we move, perceive, think and feel by virtue of this life, this being, which we are, which is given to us by God.

Man is the whereby God enters into creation bringing us to Him in loving union.
We could have entered into the Beatific Vision at the beginning, but we chose ourselves.
The Word emptied Himself, becoming one of us, taking up our sins, conquering death and thereby offering us the hope of eternal life in Him.

This is the ontological truth of our existence.
Each one of us a unique incarnation of the humanity of which we are all distinct members: His holy Church.
Christ is the Way. This path that we walk is alive, a person; as we proceed, we grow in Christ towards final communion with God.
Surrendering ourselves to Him, our bodies become His house. Participating in thought, spirit and action, as members of His Church, we become ever more Christ-like.
In Adam, we are all sinners. In Christ, the one true vine, we are redeemed.
This is the reality of who we are. Through Christ’s descent into hell upon His death in time, freeing all the prisoners, this becomes an eternal reality encompassing all who have and will exist since we sinned in the Garden.

This reality of human nature that clearly exists now, had a beginning in time.
Scripture and the official teachings of the Church assert how this started with one man.
It had to.

What we can know here and now is mainly about this fallen world that we perceive through our senses and limited intellect.
The world has as its Foundation, the Word of God. Matter and its workings are not the final determinants of what has, does and will occur.
Perhaps how we were formed physically, at some point in the future may be explainable using the language of the sciences, possibly (I think probably) not.

When science puts together a scenario of man’s past on this earth, it does so based on data collected now.
The data is limited in its nature (morphological features in bones, DNA and such).
That information has to be plugged into some sort of analytical model or simulation.
These models are based on assumptions.
One assumption that you will never see is that God created man and He is all powerful. You can tell right off the bat that there can be problems.
Another assumption is that man now = man then.
Yet another is that genetic changes occur randomly, without influence from outside, particularly supernatural sources.
Science will say, if asked for an opinion, that the immaculate conception is a false belief and that the Eucharist is not the body of Christ.
Bear all this in mind when listening to apologists for the scientific view of man’s creation.

Man’s existence seen in the context of all life on earth is like a giant redwood among bushes and grasses.
The same people who are promoting polygenism, would have you believe that this magnificent tree reaching into the heavens spontaneously came into being from the seeds of the brush around it. Nonsense.
 
grannymh said:
In regard to the links in post 101-102, I could not immediately find a reference to the *current *natural science theories regarding the origin of the human species as a population and not from a single set of parents. Even if I missed the reference, which is a possibility, it is not important to this thread – since that reference is not a Genesis detail.

The date of the links reminded me that it is time for me to take a break from CAF and continue scientific and theological research for Adam and Eve. I am sincerely grateful to CAF for all the information members have provided, including links, some of which need further attention on my part. When practical, I will return to CAF with more information and/or different ways to look at the information we already have. Until then, may God give all of you, Members, Guests, Moderators, Administration, including Tech Support, many, many blessings.
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Thank you granny. Your posts have always been rational and interesting to read.

Be well
 
Aloysium said:
God created heaven and earth - that which is of the spirit and that which is material.
Out of this earth He brought forth plants, animals and ultimately man.
God breathed on what He had formed and we came into existence - a unity of spirit and matter.

Breath is life. As trees wave in the unseen wind, we move, perceive, think and feel by virtue of this life, this being, which we are, which is given to us by God.

Man is the whereby God enters into creation bringing us to Him in loving union.
We could have entered into the Beatific Vision at the beginning, but we chose ourselves.
The Word emptied Himself, becoming one of us, taking up our sins, conquering death and thereby offering us the hope of eternal life in Him.

This is the ontological truth of our existence.
Each one of us a unique incarnation of the humanity of which we are all distinct members: His holy Church.
Christ is the Way. This path that we walk is alive, a person; as we proceed, we grow in Christ towards final communion with God.
Surrendering ourselves to Him, our bodies become His house. Participating in thought, spirit and action, as members of His Church, we become ever more Christ-like.
In Adam, we are all sinners. In Christ, the one true vine, we are redeemed.
This is the reality of who we are. Through Christ’s descent into hell upon His death in time, freeing all the prisoners, this becomes an eternal reality encompassing all who have and will exist since we sinned in the Garden.

This reality of human nature that clearly exists now, had a beginning in time.
Scripture and the official teachings of the Church assert how this started with one man.
It had to.

What we can know here and now is mainly about this fallen world that we perceive through our senses and limited intellect.
The world has as its Foundation, the Word of God. Matter and its workings are not the final determinants of what has, does and will occur.
Perhaps how we were formed physically, at some point in the future may be explainable using the language of the sciences, possibly (I think probably) not.

When science puts together a scenario of man’s past on this earth, it does so based on data collected now.
The data is limited in its nature (morphological features in bones, DNA and such).
That information has to be plugged into some sort of analytical model or simulation.
These models are based on assumptions.
One assumption that you will never see is that God created man and He is all powerful. You can tell right off the bat that there can be problems.
Another assumption is that man now = man then.
Yet another is that genetic changes occur randomly, without influence from outside, particularly supernatural sources.
Science will say, if asked for an opinion, that the immaculate conception is a false belief and that the Eucharist is not the body of Christ.
Bear all this in mind when listening to apologists for the scientific view of man’s creation.

Man’s existence seen in the context of all life on earth is like a giant redwood among bushes and grasses.
The same people who are promoting polygenism, would have you believe that this magnificent tree reaching into the heavens spontaneously came into being from the seeds of the brush around it. Nonsense.
Click to expand...
I appreciate the quality of dialogue on this forum. The above post is another great example of thoughtful clarity and obvious faith and love for the Lord.

Please know that if I disagree with you on some things, I nonetheless agree on many things, including the significance and reality of sin, and the need for salvation through Jesus Christ. I too think it important that Christian theology not lose sight of those things. I happen to think that theological monogenism retains those essentials. If I understand you correctly, you think that biological monogenism is also required to retain those essentials of the faith. I disagree, but I do so with complete respect and appreciation.

I try to help Christians, whatever their denomination, reconcile their faith with science. The mainline denominations, including Catholicism, have wonderful leaders who have published excellent documents that can guide members of those denominations in strengthening their faith and in viewing science as an ally, not an enemy, in the search for truth.

All mainline denominations, including Catholicism, have a diversity of viewpoints when it comes to relating certain scientific theories to the faith. I do not see that as a negative, necessarily. As long as the dialogue is loving and as long as we keep our eyes on the prize (saving faith in Christ), I do not think the dialogue itself necessarily undermines faith.

I hope you do not see my efforts as somehow duplicitous or harmful. In any case (for what’s it’s worth), I certainly appreciate your contributions, Aloysium.
 
Aloysium said:
Any Catholic interested in what the Church teaches, should obviously go to the source.
The Church rejects polygenism.This has been discussed at nauseum in the forums, but there are people who will continue to try and undermine your faith.
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Good post. I cannot understand for a second where this is coming from. First: “The Bible is not a science text.” followed by: “Let’s treat the Bible like a science text.” Those are two completely opposed positions.

And God. He has God-like powers, like raising the dead, for example, minus science.

I fail to see how people miss that. Or miracles that are still happening.

Peace,
Ed
 
Pope Benedict XVI puts it well, I think:

“But our question today is does it make sense in the age of science and technology, to still speak of creation? How should we understand the narratives of Genesis? The Bible is not intended as a manual of the natural sciences; it wants to help us understand the authentic and profound truth of things. The fundamental truth that the stories of Genesis reveal is that the world is not a collection of contrasting forces, but has its origin and its stability in the Logos, the eternal reason of God, who continues to sustain the universe. There is a design of the world that is born from this Reason, the Spirit Creator. Believing that this is at the basis of all things, illuminates every aspect of life and gives us the courage to face the adventure of life with confidence and hope. So the Scripture tells us that the origin of the world, our origin is not irrational or out of necessity, but reason and love and freedom. And this is the alternative: the priority of the irrational, of necessity or the priority of reason, freedom and love. We believe in this position.”

The above paragraph is just part of an enlightening address, available at:
news.va/en/news/audience-god-creation-and-free-will
 
"Monod nonetheless finds the possibility for evolution in the fact that in the very propagation of the project there can be mistakes in the act of transmission. Because nature is conservative, these mistakes, once having come into existence, are carried on. Such mistakes can add up, and from the adding up of mistakes something new can arise. Now an astonishing conclusion follows: It was in this way that the whole world of living creatures, and human beings themselves, came into existence. We are the product of “haphazard mistakes.” [5]

“What response shall we make to this view? It is the affair of the natural sciences to explain how the tree of life in particular continues to grow and how new branches shoot out from it. This is not a matter for faith. But we must have the audacity to say that the great projects of the living creation are not the products of chance and error. Nor are they the products of a selective process to which divine predicates can be attributed in illogical, unscientific, and even mythic fashion. The great projects of the living creation point to a creating Reason and show us a creating Intelligence, and they do so more luminously and radiantly today than ever before. Thus we can say today with a new certitude and joyousness that the human being is indeed a divine project, which only the creating Intelligence was strong and great and audacious enough to conceive of. Human beings are not a mistake but something willed; they are the fruit of love. They can disclose in themselves, in the bold project that they are, the language of the creating Intelligence that speaks to them and that moves them to say: Yes, Father, you have willed me.”

Excerpt from: In the Beginning–: A Catholic Understanding of the Story of Creation and the Fall.
By Pope Benedict XVI

books.google.com/books?id=a47neDIBaSkC&pg=PT67&lpg=PT67&dq=%22Monod+nonetheless+finds+the+possibility+for+evolution+in+the+fact+that+in+the+very%22&source=bl&ots=Y5iPVQ19Yv&sig=PsAM0HA5yE9JZPnAoY7i9qazdc0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=otSZU5qXA8ShyASLloLoCQ&ved=0CB0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22Monod%20nonetheless%20finds%20the%20possibility%20for%20evolution%20in%20the%20fact%20that%20in%20the%20very%22&f=false

Peace,
Ed
 
cfauster said:
. . . The Bible is not intended as a manual of the natural sciences; it wants to help us understand the authentic and profound truth of things. The fundamental truth that the stories of Genesis reveal is that the world is not a collection of contrasting forces, but has its origin and its stability in the Logos, the eternal reason of God, who continues to sustain the universe. There is a design of the world that is born from this Reason, the Spirit Creator. Believing that this is at the basis of all things, illuminates every aspect of life and gives us the courage to face the adventure of life with confidence and hope. So the Scripture tells us that the origin of the world, our origin is not irrational or out of necessity, but reason and love and freedom. And this is the alternative: the priority of the irrational, of necessity or the priority of reason, freedom and love. We believe in this position." . . . ]
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👍
 
Indeed. Whether science detects it or not, God as Creator guides.

I like the clarity obtained by the use of the words “contingent” and “contingency” rather than “random” or randomness" in the following:

“But it is important to note that, according to the Catholic understanding of divine causality, true contingency in the created order is not incompatible with a purposeful divine providence. Divine causality and created causality radically differ in kind and not only in degree. Thus, even the outcome of a truly contingent natural process can nonetheless fall within God’s providential plan for creation…In the Catholic perspective, neo-Darwinians who adduce random genetic variation and natural selection as evidence that the process of evolution is absolutely unguided are straying beyond what can be demonstrated by science. Divine causality can be active in a process that is both contingent and guided.”

As many will recognize (it’s appeared on CAF many times), this is from the International Theological Commission’s Communion and Stewardship: Human Persons Created in the Image of God available (among other places) from:
philvaz.com/apologetics/p80.htm
 
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