Genesis details

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“here are the scientific errors in your Bible.” There is zero science to back up that last statement. Ed
True. Why? There can’t be scientific errors in the Bible if the Bible is not making scientific claims.

For example, if the truth claims in the Bible about Adam and Eve are preserved without error in both versions of monogenism that have been discussed in this thread - theological monogenism (without biological monogenism) as well as the version that requires both theological and biological monogenism - then neither is finding any scientific error in the Bible.
 
I just stumbled (re-stumbled?) across this thread, and saw Granny’s and Aloysium’s posts and the link to the video clip. Good stuff…
"Aloysium:
I watched it a few times myself, granny. I can’t say I got much out of it.
I have watched the video more than once, and I still do not completely understand it.
To my ears, it sounds like he’s reiterating the thesis of the Pontifical Biblical Commission’s document on how the Catholic Church approaches the Bible. That is, she realizes that it’s a collection of books, and that there are a variety of genres of literature found within the Bible (and within individual books, as well!).
It starts off badly with some weird comment that the focus of the crucifixion is Jesus’ pain and then saying that is wrong.
It seemed to me that Tilling is asserting that we, as 21st-century readers of the Gospels, look at the crucifixion accounts and see – primarily – an account of the painful aspect of the event. We, as westerners in the 21st century, see an account that details the brutal nature of the passion and death of Jesus. Tilling suggests, however, that this isn’t what the Gospel writers had in mind; rather, they are focused on the shame of the event. That is, everyone in their day knew that crucifixion was a nasty business, and was a way that Roman authorities used to browbeat populations into submission. So, for that audience, just to say ‘crucifixion’ would already presume what they knew – torture, suffering, death. However, Tilling seems to be saying, what the Gospel writers are really showing us is the shame associated with a crucifixion: we see that Jesus is mocked; we see that Jesus is stripped and physically exposed; we see that Jesus is berated by Jews and Gentiles and fellow convicts alike. This ‘shame’ aspect is huge in that society; when one experiences shame, he gets knocked down a peg, in the culture of the day. Tilling is pointing out to us that, when we read the Gospels, we bring in our own context and our own perspectives, and in doing so, we can miss critical messages that are part of the Gospel stories.

(Let’s look at another one that’s commonly recognized: the Samaritan woman at the well. As 21st-century readers, we’d completely miss some critical details: Jesus is talking to a woman (a huge cultural taboo); He is talking to a Samaritan (likewise, verboten); He is talking to a woman who is an outcast (since she is not filling her water jugs in the morning, when all do so, but in the mid-day, because she is not part of her community’s ‘proper ladies’); He is offering salvation to someone who is not a Jew (gasp!). If we see only what our 21st-century perspective allows us to see, then we only see that Jesus has insight into the woman’s life, and that He incents her to be an apostle of sorts, and that His invitation is efficacious. We miss, therefore, a ton of relevant information… which is what Tilling’s point is.
He talks of theological truth as distinct from modern historical and biological truth; there was clearly something that the author was trying to say, but he did not manage to reach me.
I could tell you the story of a Super Bowl victory by the Steelers. My point might be that, through their victory, a city was energized and revitalized. My story might have nothing to do about ‘historical’ and ‘biological’ truth, depending on how I tell it: but, it might speak to the nobility of the human spirit, and the ways in which a community draws upon strengths that it didn’t know it had. Depending on the way I tell the story, you might not be able to point to a particular historical event that is the basis of my narrative; however, in telling my story, I’ve said something that is particularly true and notably filled with theological impact. The fact that my story cannot be corroborated with historical ‘truth’, however, doesn’t mean that my story isn’t likewise ‘true’. That’s his point. Truth isn’t found only in history books and science texts; it’s found where we tell truths about theology and about human dignity.
It does not stir the soul. Does anyone feel closer to God listening to those words?
Yep. It tell me that God teaches us the truth; it tells me that, even if we’re not hearing Walter Cronkite telling us the way it is, we’re still hearing God telling us the way it is!
I can say truthfully that I bring a number of presuppositions to the first three chapters of Genesis.
I think that all of us ‘cradle Catholics’ can make that claim. The question, though, is whether we allow ourselves to be stuck in an approach that is accessible to grade-schoolers, or whether we allow ourselves to see that God isn’t limited to particular modes of expression.
My presuppositions are based on Catholic doctrines
Fair enough. However, that doesn’t mean that one’s presuppositions are, likewise, doctrinally true. 😉
 
True. Why? There can’t be scientific errors in the Bible if the Bible is not making scientific claims.

For example, if the truth claims in the Bible about Adam and Eve are preserved without error in both versions of monogenism that have been discussed in this thread - theological monogenism (without biological monogenism) as well as the version that requires both theological and biological monogenism - then neither is finding any scientific error in the Bible.
I’m only pointing out three things.
  1. Science cannot, by definition, investigate the supernatural.
  2. Numerous threads over the years have been started here that mostly focus on Genesis. For example: “Did XYZ literally and actually happen or not?”
  3. If the answers is: “Yes, it literally happened.” then the reply is often that this contradicts science in some way.
Best,
Ed
 
I just stumbled (re-stumbled?) across this thread, and saw Granny’s and Aloysium’s posts and the link to the video clip. Good stuff…

(Let’s look at another one that’s commonly recognized: the Samaritan woman at the well. As 21st-century readers, we’d completely miss some critical details: Jesus is talking to a woman (a huge cultural taboo); He is talking to a Samaritan (likewise, verboten); He is talking to a woman who is an outcast (since she is not filling her water jugs in the morning, when all do so, but in the mid-day, because she is not part of her community’s ‘proper ladies’); He is offering salvation to someone who is not a Jew (gasp!). If we see only what our 21st-century perspective allows us to see, then we only see that Jesus has insight into the woman’s life, and that He incents her to be an apostle of sorts, and that His invitation is efficacious. We miss, therefore, a ton of relevant information… which is what Tilling’s point is.

I could tell you the story of a Super Bowl victory by the Steelers. My point might be that, through their victory, a city was energized and revitalized. My story might have nothing to do about ‘historical’ and ‘biological’ truth, depending on how I tell it: but, it might speak to the nobility of the human spirit, and the ways in which a community draws upon strengths that it didn’t know it had. Depending on the way I tell the story, you might not be able to point to a particular historical event that is the basis of my narrative; however, in telling my story, I’ve said something that is particularly true and notably filled with theological impact. The fact that my story cannot be corroborated with historical ‘truth’, however, doesn’t mean that my story isn’t likewise ‘true’. That’s his point. Truth isn’t found only in history books and science texts; it’s found where we tell truths about theology and about human dignity.

Yep. It tell me that God teaches us the truth; it tells me that, even if we’re not hearing Walter Cronkite telling us the way it is, we’re still hearing God telling us the way it is!

I think that all of us ‘cradle Catholics’ can make that claim. The question, though, is whether we allow ourselves to be stuck in an approach that is accessible to grade-schoolers, or whether we allow ourselves to see that God isn’t limited to particular modes of expression.

Fair enough. However, that doesn’t mean that one’s presuppositions are, likewise, doctrinally true. 😉
Regarding the final two sentences:
Code:
The Doctrine of Revelation Regarding Man or "Christian Anthropology"



The first man was created by God. (De fide.)
The whole human race stems from one single human pair. (Sent. certa.)
Man consists of two essential parts--a material body and a spiritual soul. (De fide.)
The rational soul is per se the essential form of the body. (De fide.)
Every human being possesses an individual soul. (De fide.)
Every individual soul was immediately created out of nothing by God. (Sent. Certa.)
A creature has the capacity to receive supernatural gifts. (Sent. communis.)
The Supernatural presupposes Nature. (Sent communis.)
God has conferred on man a supernatural Destiny. (De fide.)
Our first parents, before the Fall, were endowed with sanctifying grace. (De fide.)
The donum rectitudinis or integritatis in the narrower sense, i.e., the freedom from irregular desire. (Sent. fidei proxima.)
The donum immortalitatis, i.e.,bodily immortality. (De fide.)
The donum impassibilitatis, i.e., the freedom from suffering. (Sent. communis.)
The donum scientiae, i.e., a knowledge of natural and supernatural truths infused by God. (Sent. communis.)
Adam received sanctifying grace not merely for himself, but for all his posterity. (Sent. certa.)
Our first parents in paradise sinned grievously through transgression of the Divine probationary commandment. (De fide.)
Through the sin our first parents lost sanctifying grace and provoked the anger and the indignation of God. (De fide.)
Our first parents became subject to death and to the dominion of the Devil. (De fide.) D788.
Adam's sin is transmitted to his posterity, not by imitation, but by descent. (De fide.)
Original Sin consists in the deprivation of grace caused by the free act of sin committed by the head of the race. (Sent. communis.)
Original sin is transmitted by natural generation. (De fide.)
In the state of original sin man is deprived of sanctifying grace and all that this implies, as well as of the preternatural gifts of integrity. (De fide in regard to Sanctifying Grace and the Donum Immortalitatus. D788 et seq.)
Souls who depart this life in the state of original sin are excluded from the Beatific Vision of God. (De fide.)
(Thanks to buffalo for the above.)

Ed
 
Numerous threads over the years have been started here that mostly focus on Genesis. For example: “Did XYZ literally and actually happen or not?” … If the answers is: “Yes, it literally happened.” then the reply is often that this contradicts science in some way.
I don’t know if this example has appeared on CAF, but sometimes I’ve seen atheists scoff at the talking snake in Genesis 3, and then believers defend a literalist interpretation (yes, an actual snake spoke …), and I think (sigh) that both are missing the point.

You Catholics are so blessed to have your top prelate help you interpret the Bible in a manner that is both very scholarly and sound theologically. For example, here’s some more of the Feb 6 2013 address by Pope Benedict XVI from which I quoted in an earlier post (see news.va/en/news/audience-god-creation-and-free-will ):

“In the first Chapters of the Book of Genesis we find two important images: the garden, with the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and the serpent … the serpent is a symbol that comes from the Oriental fertility cults that fascinated Israel and were a constant temptation to abandon the mysterious covenant with God. In this light Sacred Scripture presents the temptation of Adam and Eve as the core of temptation and sin. What, in fact, did the serpent say? He did not deny God but insinuated a subtle question: “Did God say, ‘you shall not eat of any tree of the garden’?” (Gen 3:1). This is how the serpent awoke in them the suspicion that the covenant with God was nothing but a chain that bound them, that deprived them of freedom and of the most beautiful and precious things of life. Their temptation became the temptation to build by themselves the world in which to live, to refuse to accept the limitations of being creatures, the limitations of good and evil, of morality; they saw their dependence on the love of God the Creator as a burden of which to free themselves. This is always the essence of temptation. But when the relationship with God is falsified, with a lie, putting ourselves in his place, all other relationships are altered.”

Notice what Benedict XVI does there. He eruditely informs a bit about why the sacred author inspired by God (but also influenced by his contemporary human context) would employ the snake (serpent) symbol, but then he address the important meaning that the story conveys. The temptation itself portrayed in Genesis 3 really happened, and it really happened at the very start of humanity (and continues today), and our earliest ancestors really did fail to resist the temptation (as we still do today). Benedict XVI clearly teaches this - as I think Catholic doctrine has always done - even though he also refers to the serpent as symbolic.

I would think that Benedict XVI would see no problem if a Catholic chose to believe that the talking snake was also historical fact, but likewise I think it’s clear that he has no problem with believing that the snake is a symbol. He might even sigh, with some sadness, if he witnessed Catholics (or any Christians) arguing about whether or not there really was a talking snake, whether that would be scientific or not, etc.

Be thankful that you have such great scholar-leaders as your popes. In my lifetime, at least, they all have been awesomely outstanding servants of God, in my opinion. And I’m not even Catholic.
 
Regarding the final two sentences:
Code:
The Doctrine of Revelation Regarding Man or "Christian Anthropology"
Ed,

I’m not certain why you posted the list of doctrinal statements of the Church. After all, Granny wasn’t saying that she was confused about Church doctrine, just that she had made presuppositions based on doctrine, and these presuppositions were the things she was concerned about… 🤷
 
I don’t know if this example has appeared on CAF, but sometimes I’ve seen atheists scoff at the talking snake in Genesis 3, and then believers defend a literalist interpretation (yes, an actual snake spoke …), and I think (sigh) that both are missing the point.

You Catholics are so blessed to have your top prelate help you interpret the Bible in a manner that is both very scholarly and sound theologically. For example, here’s some more of the Feb 6 2013 address by Pope Benedict XVI from which I quoted in an earlier post (see news.va/en/news/audience-god-creation-and-free-will ):

“In the first Chapters of the Book of Genesis we find two important images: the garden, with the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and the serpent … the serpent is a symbol that comes from the Oriental fertility cults that fascinated Israel and were a constant temptation to abandon the mysterious covenant with God. In this light Sacred Scripture presents the temptation of Adam and Eve as the core of temptation and sin. What, in fact, did the serpent say? He did not deny God but insinuated a subtle question: “Did God say, ‘you shall not eat of any tree of the garden’?” (Gen 3:1). This is how the serpent awoke in them the suspicion that the covenant with God was nothing but a chain that bound them, that deprived them of freedom and of the most beautiful and precious things of life. Their temptation became the temptation to build by themselves the world in which to live, to refuse to accept the limitations of being creatures, the limitations of good and evil, of morality; they saw their dependence on the love of God the Creator as a burden of which to free themselves. This is always the essence of temptation. But when the relationship with God is falsified, with a lie, putting ourselves in his place, all other relationships are altered.”

Notice what Benedict XVI does there. He eruditely informs a bit about why the sacred author inspired by God (but also influenced by his contemporary human context) would employ the snake (serpent) symbol, but then he address the important meaning that the story conveys. The temptation itself portrayed in Genesis 3 really happened, and it really happened at the very start of humanity (and continues today), and our earliest ancestors really did fail to resist the temptation (as we still do today). Benedict XVI clearly teaches this - as I think Catholic doctrine has always done - even though he also refers to the serpent as symbolic.

I would think that Benedict XVI would see no problem if a Catholic chose to believe that the talking snake was also historical fact, but likewise I think it’s clear that he has no problem with believing that the snake is a symbol. He might even sigh, with some sadness, if he witnessed Catholics (or any Christians) arguing about whether or not there really was a talking snake, whether that would be scientific or not, etc.

Be thankful that you have such great scholar-leaders as your popes. In my lifetime, at least, they all have been awesomely outstanding servants of God, in my opinion. And I’m not even Catholic.
Your post is very well written and points out important truths. What Catholics need to be on guard about is the denial of certain realities. It is my considered opinion, after reading many posts, especially about Genesis, that there is a desire by some to remove actual, literal things and replace them with valid, but also incomplete views that render, in the present, certain actual events that some think should should be viewed in only one dimension: as symbols or lessons taught by these symbols.

Who was Jesus tempted by in the wilderness? A symbol?

biblehub.com/matthew/4-10.htm

Is Hell a real place?

catholicnewsagency.com/news/what_the_pope_really_said_about_hell/

Demonic possession, today? Ridiculous, right?

catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1101298.htm

People do well to show the spiritual truths in the Bible but should never leave out the actual truths.

Peace,
Ed
 
. . . It seemed to me that Tilling is asserting that we, as 21st-century readers of the Gospels, look at the crucifixion accounts and see – primarily – an account of the painful aspect of the event. We, as westerners in the 21st century, see an account that details the brutal nature of the passion and death of Jesus. Tilling suggests, however, that this isn’t what the Gospel writers had in mind; rather, they are focused on the shame of the event. . . . Tilling is pointing out to us that, when we read the Gospels, we bring in our own context and our own perspectives, and in doing so, we can miss critical messages that are part of the Gospel stories… . . .
I knew I was out of step, but I didn’t think it was by 2000 years.
Everything else is pretty much done in this life, all I have is my good name; and, even that will fade from collective memory.
Left in this world, is only the good we will have done, indistinct but providing a rich cultural loam for the growth and enrichment of later generations.

I am not sure where he got his idea that modern man seems focussed on physical vs moral pain, but it is probably right on:
  • In a world where good and evil are seen as relative, shame has no meaning other than referring to some contravention of society’s laws, in place to maintain the rich and powerful, and ourselves with them, in our wealth and place in the hierarchy.
  • If modern man is fixated on pleasure, it is clear that he will be horrified at the physical pain Jesus suffered on the cross.
At first glance, it would appear that discussing the crucifixion is a derailment of a thread about Genesis, but it is central. I hope to get a chance to comment further on this later.
 
This moment is real. There is a yesterday and many others before, countless for all intents and purposes. At some point mankind came into being, each an individual person, possessing the ability to understand the goodness, beauty and truth that constitutes existence. Endowed with these qualities, we are at the same time, comprised of the same stuff as everything that we can perceive. We were created participants in a garden, which we are to tend.

We came into being in right relationship with the world, with each other, and especially with God. This harmony was then as it is now, broken by sin - placing ourselves and our will above God and His love.
Our capacity for love, and consequently, to sin lies at the centre of our garden, of who we are in the world. We, having turned our hearts from God, our once flourishing world becomes empty, inhospitable, a frigid, purposeless, wasteland filled with dangers.

Although banished, having severed our connection with what is sacred, God calls us back to Him. Through faith, personified in Abraham and the following of His commandments revealed to us through Moses, we come ever closer to Him. In Christ, God Himself becomes the Centre of our Garden, here and in eternity. Where there was the wood of the two trees, there is that of the cross. With open eyes, we see the consequences of sin; and, through His mercy, in His sacrifice on the cross, we are redeemed. Jesus, His very flesh - the new fruit which offers eternal life.

Jesus: a man alone, abandoned and betrayed, having everything, his very life taken from Him, humiliated and condemned for doing the Father’s will, telling the truth, that He is the Word of God:
This is the symbol of Christian transcendence that leads us through the darkness of our ignorance and into His light.

As asserted in the CCC:
1851 It is precisely in the Passion, when the mercy of Christ is about to vanquish it, that sin most clearly manifests its violence and its many forms: unbelief, murderous hatred, shunning and mockery by the leaders and the people, Pilate’s cowardice and the cruelty of the soldiers, Judas’ betrayal - so bitter to Jesus, Peter’s denial and the disciples’ flight. However, at the very hour of darkness, the hour of the prince of this world,126 the sacrifice of Christ secretly becomes the source from which the forgiveness of our sins will pour forth inexhaustibly.
Although scripture, Genesis in this case, relies on symbolism to communicate meaning, this is all real stuff.
 
Amen to the recent posts by Aloysium and edwest2. We have the same challenge in the Lutheran church: to hold fast to spiritual realities even as we recognize that some of those realities are taught by the use of symbols in sacred scripture. Truths taught with symbols can be just as important and real as those taught in other ways.

By the way, the common Lutheran-Catholic understanding of these things is articulated in the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification.

In that declaration, the paragraphs that begin “We confess together that …” say (in part):

“All persons depend completely on the saving grace of God for their salvation … as sinners they stand under God’s judgment and are incapable of turning by themselves to God to seek deliverance, of meriting their justification before God, or of attaining salvation by their own abilities.”

“God forgives sin by grace and at the same time frees human beings from sin’s enslaving power and imparts the gift of new life in Christ.”

“Sinners are justified by faith in the saving action of God in Christ.”

“In baptism the Holy Spirit unites one with Christ, justifies, and truly renews the person. But the justified must all through life constantly look to God’s unconditional justifying grace. They also are continuously exposed to the power of sin still pressing its attacks (cf. Rom 6:12-14) and are not exempt from a lifelong struggle against the contradiction to God within the selfish desires of the old Adam (cf. Gal 5:16; Rom 7:7-10). The justified also must ask God daily for forgiveness as in the Lord’s Prayer (Mt. 6:12; 1 Jn 1:9), are ever again called to conversion and penance, and are ever again granted forgiveness.”

“Christ has fulfilled the law and by his death and resurrection has overcome it as a way to salvation.”
 
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