Genesis of social justice

[royal_archer]

Genesis Chapter 3:
17 To the man he said, ‘Because you listened to the voice of your wife and ate from the tree of which I had forbidden you to eat, Accursed be the soil because of you! Painfully will you get your food from it as long as you live.
18 It will yield you brambles and thistles, as you eat the produce of the land.
19 By the sweat of your face will you earn your food, until you return to the ground, as you were taken from it. For dust you are and to dust you shall return.’

My interpretation: God Will provide but we will have to make an effort and it will not be easy. Today many want something for nothing and think that somehow they are owed it.

 

[cdeterma]

I nearly left the church last week at confirmation class. I’m older and am taking classes to get confirmed since I have returned to the church. The issue was social justice. The class leader said that their Faith Formation Minister class put on by the diocese said that social and distributive justice is necessary to live the christian life. That class she was tought in said, “as wealth accumulates in a community it is the government’s job to equitably distribute that wealth.” This is communism! Wealth doesn’t accumulate, it is earned and created through effort and work. If the catholic church is about that then either I’ll find a new church or some changes need to be made.

 

[portarica]

I nearly left the church last week at confirmation class. I’m older and am taking classes to get confirmed since I have returned to the church. The issue was social justice. The class leader said that their Faith Formation Minister class put on by the diocese said that social and distributive justice is necessary to live the christian life. That class she was tought in said, “as wealth accumulates in a community it is the government’s job to equitably distribute that wealth.” This is communism! Wealth doesn’t accumulate, it is earned and created through effort and work. If the catholic church is about that then either I’ll find a new church or some changes need to be made.

Actually some wealth does accumulate, that’s why on your taxes there are unearned portions and gains made from investments with no risk.

Sort of like when Goldman takes money from the Fed at 0% and buys treasuries that pay 3% and Goldman pockets the difference and pays the best and brightest bonuses for figuring out how to take our money and make money at no risk. That is corporate welfare, but that is the republican , conservative and way so it is generally considered by many to be OK.

I’m also sure you have that quote on some sort of document that you can cite.

Peace

 

[tafan]

I nearly left the church last week at confirmation class. I’m older and am taking classes to get confirmed since I have returned to the church. The issue was social justice. The class leader said that their Faith Formation Minister class put on by the diocese said that social and distributive justice is necessary to live the christian life. That class she was tought in said, “as wealth accumulates in a community it is the government’s job to equitably distribute that wealth.” This is communism! Wealth doesn’t accumulate, it is earned and created through effort and work. If the catholic church is about that then either I’ll find a new church or some changes need to be made.

I would be careful about the specific of hearsay arguments. I have made very sound, catholic statements on distribution of wealth and have been interpretted the same way. Fair distribution of wealth is a perfectly Catholic concept, I would refer you to Chestertons’s “What’s Wrong with the World” or Leo XIII’s “Rerum Novarum” . Communism is not the equitable distribution of wealth by the government, it is the ownership of all wealth by the government. While I whole heartedly agree with you that we do NOT want the government to directly redistribute the wealth under most scenarios, there are exceptions. There have been very sensible land reform in European history and elsewhere that did this successfully and were inline with Catholic social justice thinking. The breakup of some big ranches in parts of the US west in favor of small farmers during the late 19th century would be another example.
But in general, it is the function of the state to administer and regulate an economic system such that wealth is not overlly concentrated, “Every man should be allowed to own three acres and a cow”. Do not fall into the trap that of thinking that “distribution of wealth” is sometype of evil concept. It is a matter of the means, not the ends. In late 19th century in parts of American and most or Europe wealth was horribly concentrated to the detriment of society. America solved this problem in sensible way, in general Europe did not (excepting some, but not all, land reform movements).

There is a reason why Belloc, in the early 20th century, said that communism and capitalism were two sides of the same coin. In one system you have the state owning and controlling everything, in the other you have an oligarchy of a few capitalists, owning and controlling everything.

The statement that social and distributive justice is necessary for a Christian life does not seem unreasonable to me at all. The part about the government redistributing it is dangerous, but that could be hearsay and/or misinterpretation.

"You prosecute the man or woman Who steals the goose from off the common, But leave the larger felon loose Who steals the common from the goose. " Chesterton at his best.

 

[puzzleannie]

I That class she was tought in said, “as wealth accumulates in a community it is the government’s job to equitably distribute that wealth.” This is communism! .

my guess is this was not the first and won’t be last time she totally mis-states Catholic social justice teaching. If she is this far wrong here, I don’t place much faith on the rest of what she says. my advice continue the class, receive Confirmation, and let the Holy Spirit take over your formation, which he will do in his gifts of wisdom, knowledge and understanding. You are doing pretty well wading through the fluff to get to the truth, keep it up, and gently guide others in your position so sources for the true teaching.

 

[portarica]

Genesis Chapter 3:
17 To the man he said, ‘Because you listened to the voice of your wife and ate from the tree of which I had forbidden you to eat, Accursed be the soil because of you! Painfully will you get your food from it as long as you live.
18 It will yield you brambles and thistles, as you eat the produce of the land.
19 By the sweat of your face will you earn your food, until you return to the ground, as you were taken from it. For dust you are and to dust you shall return.’

My interpretation: God Will provide but we will have to make an effort and it will not be easy. Today many want something for nothing and think that somehow they are owed it.

When I was hungry did you feed me? And then they asked Jesus when was it that He came to them hungry?

Peace

 

[tafan]

When I was hungry did you feed me? And then they asked Jesus when was it that He came to them hungry?

Peace

Notice how Jesus did not address that to the Roman government. Not to say the government should not provide a social safety net, rather the point is we have an individual responsibility to take care of the poor. Simply relying on the government is both a cop-out and ineffective, IMO.

 

[catharina]

I nearly left the church last week at confirmation class. I’m older and am taking classes to get confirmed since I have returned to the church. The issue was social justice. The class leader said that their Faith Formation Minister class put on by the diocese said that social and distributive justice is necessary to live the christian life. That class she was tought in said, “as wealth accumulates in a community it is the government’s job to equitably distribute that wealth.” This is communism! Wealth doesn’t accumulate, it is earned and created through effort and work. If the catholic church is about that then either I’ll find a new church or some changes need to be made.

Please correct her or report her.
You’re a baptized Catholic so you can easily correct her, if you will.

It is not the “job” of govt.
It’s the job of Christians to insure that the poor get a break.
That means we can influence our govts in many ways.

She might have been trying to convey this (from the Catechism):

ARTICLE 3 - **SOCIAL JUSTICE **
1928 Society ensures social justice when it provides the conditions that allow associations or individuals to obtain what is their due, according to their nature and their vocation. Social justice is linked to the common good and the exercise of authority.

I. **RESPECT FOR THE HUMAN PERSON **
1929 Social justice can be obtained only in respecting the transcendent dignity of man. The person represents the ultimate end of society, which is ordered to him: What is at stake is the dignity of the human person, whose defense and promotion have been entrusted to us by the Creator, and to whom the men and women at every moment of history are strictly and responsibly in debt.[35]

1930 Respect for the human person entails respect for the rights that flow from his dignity as a creature. These rights are prior to society and must be recognized by it. They are the basis of the moral legitimacy of every authority: by flouting them, or refusing to recognize them in its positive legislation, a society undermines its own moral legitimacy.[36] If it does not respect them, authority can rely only on force or violence to obtain obedience from its subjects. **It is the Church’s role to remind men of good will of these rights and to distinguish them from unwarranted or false claims. **

webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:4BX99PGSkgsJ:www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/commune.html+catholic+catechism+social+justice&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Welcome back to the Faith.

 

[catharina]

my guess is this was not the first and won’t be last time she totally mis-states Catholic social justice teaching. If she is this far wrong here, I don’t place much faith on the rest of what she says. my advice continue the class, receive Confirmation, and let the Holy Spirit take over your formation, which he will do in his gifts of wisdom, knowledge and understanding. You are doing pretty well wading through the fluff to get to the truth, keep it up, and gently guide others in your position so sources for the true teaching.

As usual, puzzleannie’s response is far more patient and practical than mine was. Still because that teacher will continue to “teach” it would be good (very good) if you would correct her. It’s no small thing, her error. Maybe wait until you’re confirmed? Maybe correct her in writing - and keep a copy of the note. The teacher’s response to your note should tell you if she learned something from you. If not - go higher with your note.

 

[portarica]

Notice how Jesus did not address that to the Roman government. Not to say the government should not provide a social safety net, rather the point is we have an individual responsibility to take care of the poor. Simply relying on the government is both a cop-out and ineffective, IMO.

I agree, simply relying on the government is ineffective, we must advocate that the government do the work of Jesus in the best and most effective ways.

Peace

 

[tafan]

I agree, simply relying on the government is ineffective, we must advocate that the government do the work of Jesus in the best and most effective ways.

Peace

My primary point was that we needed to solve the problem of caring for the poor on a more individual basis. I think this is a little bit of thread drift from the original subject of distribution of wealth.

 

[portarica]

My primary point was that we needed to solve the problem of caring for the poor on a more individual basis. I think this is a little bit of thread drift from the original subject of distribution of wealth.

Actually it is right on point, Jesus didn’t say to restrict our reliance on his teachings to only those instances in which we are involved on a man to man basis. It is a big “when” as to the timing of “when” we didn’t feed Him “when” He was hungry.

It is easy to search for reasons that make it OK to accumulate lots of wealth while many of the least are dying because of the absence of few dollars.

That’s the awesomeness of Jesus’ teachings about treating the least like they may be Him. It is as simple as holding a door open for someone or as complicated as figuring out how our spending affects people in places on the other side of the world.

It also so encompassing that it makes us question things like our sense of property rights and patriotism. Is it better to save the job of a guy that works down the street in our town or put many people to work in China?

Should we give healthcare to the guy that looses his job in town? Or do we provide funding for clean water so people can just live in a drought stricken place?

This whole believing in Jesus thing can get really scary if we think Jesus really wanted us to live like He taught.

Peace

 

[humblelurker]

My primary point was that we needed to solve the problem of caring for the poor on a more individual basis. I think this is a little bit of thread drift from the original subject of distribution of wealth.

True.
This may help. Individual responsibility I believe is the link between subsidiarity and social justice. As Pope Benedict XVI has stated to the Board of Directors, Personnel and Volunteers of the Italian National Civil Defense on March 6 2010 (on the Gospel passage about the Good Samaritan), “As this Gospel passage teaches us, love for neighbor cannot be delegated: the State and politics, even with the necessary concern for welfare, cannot replace it.” And in Caritas in Veritate, 38, “Solidarity is first and foremost a sense of responsibility on the part of everyone with regard to everyone, and it cannot therefore be merely delegated to the State.” Others here are smarter than me, but this helps me keep thinks in perspective.

 

[portarica]

True.
This may help. Individual responsibility I believe is the link between subsidiarity and social justice. As Pope Benedict XVI has stated to the Board of Directors, Personnel and Volunteers of the Italian National Civil Defense on March 6 2010 (on the Gospel passage about the Good Samaritan), “As this Gospel passage teaches us, love for neighbor cannot be delegated: the State and politics, even with the necessary concern for welfare, cannot replace it.” And in Caritas in Veritate, 38, “Solidarity is first and foremost a sense of responsibility on the part of everyone with regard to everyone, and it cannot therefore be merely delegated to the State.” Others here are smarter than me, but this helps me keep thinks in perspective.

What that says is that we can’t shuffle off our responsibility to help the least on to the government.

We still must act in a personally responsible manner. And that may require that we see that our tax dollars are spent responsibly and toward the ends of Jesus and not just to please the special interests that care about nothing except money.

Peace

 

[tafan]

portarica:

Actually it is right on point, Jesus didn’t say to restrict our reliance on his teachings to only those instances in which we are involved on a man to man basis. It is a big “when” as to the timing of “when” we didn’t feed Him “when” He was hungry.

Well, a couple of thoughts come to mind. First of all, I never said anything about restricting our individual help to the poor to instances when we are involved on a man-to-man basis. There are lots of private charities that solve that problem for us. But make no mistake about it, we can lobby and participate in politics towards social programs that are just, as we should, but it does nothing to fulfill our moral obligation of charity towards the poor. That is an individual respobsibility. Collectivizing the responsibility through the state may make us feel better, but it does not address Jesus’s commands.

Secondly, I don’t think think charity towards the poor, in the form of “feeding me when I was hungry” is really related to the distribution of wealth, which is the issue this thread was originally directed towards. You can say what you want about government safety-net programs, eg foodstamps, but you cannot say they have done anything with regards to more equitable distribution of wealth.
See my original post on this topic. Governement does have a role to play in equitable distribution of wealth. Government has a role to play with a social safety net. But don’t confuse the two or you will be forever disappointed with the results.

 

[humblelurker]

Portarica said
What that says is that we can’t shuffle off our responsibility to help the least on to the government.

Amen.

Portarica said
We still must act in a personally responsible manner.

True, so no irresponsible behavior now. :dts:

Portarica said
And that may require that we see that our tax dollars are spent responsibly and toward the ends of Jesus and not just to please the special interests that care about nothing except money.

Not just care about nothing except money, but special interests that promote immorality. I know off topic.

 

[humblelurker]

Well, a couple of thoughts come to mind. First of all, I never said anything about restricting our individual help to the poor to instances when we are involved on a man-to-man basis. There are lots of private charities that solve that problem for us. But make no mistake about it, we can lobby and participate in politics towards social programs that are just, as we should, but it does nothing to fulfill our moral obligation of charity towards the poor. That is an individual respobsibility. Collectivizing the responsibility through the state may make us feel better, but it does not address Jesus’s commands.

True.
I feel that I am contributing to the derailing of the thread.
I think I will stop posting now. Sorry.

 

[cdeterma]

First , thank you for all of your replies. This concept is a huge struggle for me.

Secondly, the reason it is a huge struggle is that the social justice I read about in the catechism is about ending abuse and hatred. Where as the social justice that political and now my faith formation group is talking about is redistribution of wealth by the government. That kind of social justice only leads to a totalitarian state. That’s not acceptable.

I think the best distribution of wealth happens when people work for it, risk their fortunes, and otherwise make an effort for it. Then when they are successful a voluntary charitable donation to help others. There should be no reward for laziness, or bad choices as some continue to make. There should be help for those who want to change or begin a new life. The gov’t never makes that distinction.

 

[catharina]

First , thank you for all of your replies. This concept is a huge struggle for me.

Secondly, the reason it is a huge struggle is that the social justice I read about in the catechism is about ending abuse and hatred. Where as the social justice that political and now my faith formation group is talking about is redistribution of wealth by the government. That kind of social justice only leads to a totalitarian state. That’s not acceptable.

I think the best distribution of wealth happens when people work for it, risk their fortunes, and otherwise make an effort for it. Then when they are successful a voluntary charitable donation to help others. There should be no reward for laziness, or bad choices as some continue to make. There should be help for those who want to change or begin a new life. The gov’t never makes that distinction.

Please know for certain that your teacher’s statement was wrong!

Moving on, it’s also important to accept that some folks never learned
how to make good decisions for themselves or for their children.
We are to support good programs that result in better lives for those in need.

 

[humblelurker]

First , thank you for all of your replies. This concept is a huge struggle for me.

Secondly, the reason it is a huge struggle is that the social justice I read about in the catechism is about ending abuse and hatred. Where as the social justice that political and now my faith formation group is talking about is redistribution of wealth by the government. That kind of social justice only leads to a totalitarian state. That’s not acceptable.

I think the best distribution of wealth happens when people work for it, risk their fortunes, and otherwise make an effort for it. Then when they are successful a voluntary charitable donation to help others. There should be no reward for laziness, or bad choices as some continue to make. There should be help for those who want to change or begin a new life. The gov’t never makes that distinction.

One last post:
The Pastor of our Church told the Social Justice Group here to read the Catechism and the Papal Documents, and to stay away from contemporary literature because contemporary literature can distort the Church’s Teaching about Social Justice towards something that opposes Church Teaching. Read the truth for yourself from the source then witness to those around you in the Church. You may teach them a thing or two about true Catholic Social Justice.

Along with the Catechism you may start with something contemporary like Caritas In Veritate Encyclical of Pope Benedict XVI on Integral Human Development In Charity And Truth