Genesis of social justice

[tpw]

Ummm…the Roman government was not comprised of Jews, Christianity was in its embryonic stages. Why exactly would Jesus ask a government which was utterly indifferent to his message let alone his religious heritage to accept responsibilities which were completely foreign to it?

Please do not take biblical materials out of their historical and cultural contexts. More harm and suffering has been caused by those who want to quote “biblical principles” to deny any form of personal or political responsibility to assist people in need.

An today - should governments have no role in places like Haiti? What about countries suffering from drought or famine - should government have no role in addressing the needs of their people?

In an ideal world - you are right - individual donations and assistance would cover all needs. Unfortunately, history teaches us time and time again - while individual responses are necessary and important - government has a role…the question is how large and in what areas? And the questions aren’t easy to sort through.

tpw

Notice how Jesus did not address that to the Roman government. Not to say the government should not provide a social safety net, rather the point is we have an individual responsibility to take care of the poor. Simply relying on the government is both a cop-out and ineffective, IMO.

 

[portarica]

*Hi, Portarica,

Maybe we are just not being clear here - no one has tried to justify ‘sweat shops’ or outrageous CEO salaries/bonuses - what is trying to be justified is wealth re-distribution in and effor to be socially just. The problem with what you are proposing is that what Christ said in Matt 25:45 had nothing to do with income re-distribuiton. What was addressed was caring for the poor, hungry and neglected. Providing charity, education, work and areas where all can be the best they can be - through encouragement and their own initiative - is what is being addressed. No head of a socialist (hard or ‘soft’) government has been declared a saint for any reason - much less their economic policies or view to wealth re-distribuiton. *

I am not suggesting socialism, I am just suggesting that the “when” in did you feed me when I was hungry? is pretty inclusive and the withholding from some who are too least is pretty exclusive.

Doesn’t matter if you are rightist ,leftist, tea party or pinko, still got to treat the least like they might be He. Its being Christian not socialist .

That part of Jesus frequently gets lost when we say we are against the real least getting help.

Peace

 

[tpw]

Why is it that a child in China makes our shoes? Oh, yes, Nike, et al couldn’t find anyone to make shoes at say .50 an hour. Until those who vent against social justice teachings in the church take seriously the destructive character of globalization to local economies…and get beyond this “blame the poor” for not working hard enough, then no real discussion can be had.

The poor or those on unemployment did not cause banks to crash, play games (derivatives) with mortgages, disinvest in manufacturing, continue absurd business practices (the automobile companies) and a host of others.

I also wonder if you royal archer has worked in the fields? You seem so interested in telling us what God would have others do, have you taken your own advise?

tpw

The reason we have so many immigrant workers is that too many Americans are not willing to take those jobs. Americans are not willing to take those jobs because they get more money from the government to do nothing and collect wellfare or unemployment. This relates back to the orriginal post in that we need to recognize that God intends us to work not sit around collecting a check from the government while some illegal alien works our fields and some child in China makes our shoes.

 

[Lypher]

Why is it that a child in China makes our shoes? Oh, yes, Nike, et al couldn’t find anyone to make shoes at say .50 an hour. Until those who vent against social justice teachings in the church take seriously the destructive character of globalization to local economies…and get beyond this “blame the poor” for not working hard enough, then no real discussion can be had.

The poor or those on unemployment did not cause banks to crash, play games (derivatives) with mortgages, disinvest in manufacturing, continue absurd business practices (the automobile companies) and a host of others.

I also wonder if you royal archer has worked in the fields? You seem so interested in telling us what God would have others do, have you taken your own advise?

tpw

I have worked in the fields as a teenager. I could not do it now, as it is physically too demanding. Well I could do it, but it would not pay enough to raise my family. we would have to charge a LOT more for the food. A lot of people would go hungry if food was priced so that US workers would do the labor.

I guess you could find social justice in terms whereby each society makes its own serf. Currently we have imported serfs, under this definition we would need to create a US serf class. Unfortunately I think it is coming, although not out of choice…

 

[cdeterma]

What would you have said?if you were told to go out and purchase a property, then find a hardworking American to pay rent , that covers mortgage re/payments, insurance ,taxes and repairs, that ensures your pleasurable lifestyle is paid for by a tenant,

Wealth is created-- not out of hard work/sweat/tears,

CREATED OUT OF THIN AIR equity on property is not worked for , equity is created because greedy landlords force rents up, this forces up property values benefiting those people blinded by greed… tenants do not get exta comforts when rents increase, high rents ensure a high price on the investment property, I suggest you search the net to find out the top ten richest property owners in the world,

You should not take for granted what is said by a individual in a class,

Communism is no different than Capitalism when it comes to sharing, the people from the top end of town always come out on top,

This is completely wrong. You cannot create wealth out of thin air. What if I was told to buy an appartment building…? The money I would use comes from my hard work. What if the landlords do raise the rent…? Often there are significant factors that go into determining the price of rent. For instance the amount of repairs the landlord has to do on a property, the amount taxes the landlord has to pay, the cost of living, the price of the interest on the money used to buy or renovate the property, New cost imposed by government on the property to comply with regulations, all these things and more go into the cost of an appartment. Think of that next time you think “there ought to be a law”, or the landlord is just greedy.

 

[cdeterma]

Why is it that a child in China makes our shoes? Oh, yes, Nike, et al couldn’t find anyone to make shoes at say .50 an hour. Until those who vent against social justice teachings in the church take seriously the destructive character of globalization to local economies…and get beyond this “blame the poor” for not working hard enough, then no real discussion can be had.

The poor or those on unemployment did not cause banks to crash, play games (derivatives) with mortgages, disinvest in manufacturing, continue absurd business practices (the automobile companies) and a host of others.

I also wonder if you royal archer has worked in the fields? You seem so interested in telling us what God would have others do, have you taken your own advise?

tpw

This exportation of jobs is in part a response to the distributive justice imposed by the gov’t. The Gov’t created the problem of a high cost to do business in America and then we complain about business finding a solution to the problem. That said, I would like to see the importation of cheap goods from unfair labor markets stopped. I think a two fold solution would work best. Our costs to do business have to go down and the importing countries need to have a tarrif until the work practices in that country are more fair.

 

[Tom_Qualey]

Hi, Athair_siochain,

It sounds like either you have confused magic for reality, or are just not happy with your landlord…

What would you have said?if you were told to go out and purchase a property, then find a hardworking American to pay rent , that covers mortgage re/payments, insurance ,taxes and repairs, that ensures your pleasurable lifestyle is paid for by a tenant,

Let me be up front about this: I am a a landlord! Yep! My wife and I had a mortgage, paid it off and then moved to another state. At the time, I tried to sell the house - but, could not find a buyer…so, we rented it out. Now, maybe you have some idealized version of tenants taking care of property that does not belong to them … but, have you considered punching holes in walls that must be repaired, not replacing a/c filters as required in the lease and, of course, being late or even evading rent payments? There is another side to renting that may come as a surprise to you. Ultimately, people rent property out to make a profit - because it is a business that is taxed by both federal and state governments. Expenses such as insurance, repairs, taxes and a profit must be considered when determining a fair rent. When something breaks, the tenant just has to call the landlord to get it fixed - and the money to pay for the repairs must come from somewhere.

If you don’t like your landlord, or just don’t like being a tenant - fine! Here is a chance to do something positive about it - and, the time probably could not be better. Right now, throughtout the US there are many houses that people no longer live in - and banks are looking for new owners. Look into home ownership as a realistic alternative to your current living arrangement. Yes, this means a mortgage payment every month rather then a lease payment … and mortgages last for years as opposed to leases which are usually measured in months. The good news is that the end of the mortgage period - you OWN the house, while at the end of the lease period, you re-negotiate for another lease. Oh, and those repair bills, and taxes that the wealthy landlord somehow made money on - well, you will have a first hand opportunity to see how that is done! Negotiate your best price - make the best deal you can on a downpayment and monthly payments - and then take the opportunity that is out there.

Wealth is created-- not out of hard work/sweat/tears, CREATED OUT OF THIN AIR equity on property is not worked for , equity is created because greedy landlords force rents up, this forces up property values benefiting those people blinded by greed… tenants do not get exta comforts when rents increase, high rents ensure a high price on the investment property, I suggest you search the net to find out the top ten richest property owners in the world,

This would be truly laughable, Athair_siochain, if I did not think you were serious. Can you name anything else that is created out of THIN AIR? If you look back into the lives of rich people, you will find someone who was struggling to make ends meet - but, had a dream and did everything he could to make it happen. Now, most books are written about the ones who succeeded - but, note, many can struggle and have a dream and truly and utterly fail. But, this does nto mean that others were discouraged from trying. There is no guarantee of success - on a guarantee of an opportunity. And, while this may seem ‘unfair’ - show me another example anywhere else in the world that guarantees ‘success’.

You should not take for granted what is said by a individual in a class,

Communism is no different than Capitalism when it comes to sharing, the people from the top end of town always come out on top,

You know, Alexander Pope was right, Athair_siochain … “all is yellow to the jaundice eye…!” There are real problems with Capitalism - but, for all of its problems, no one has stepped up to the plate and demonstated a system that provides more real opportunities for everyone. Complaining about the existing system is meangingless if one does not have an offering that is better. So far, all I have heard are complaints.

God bless

Tom

 

[Tom_Qualey]

Hi, Portarica,

OK… if you are NOT suggesting socialism, just what is it that you are suggesting?

No argument about a real and personal responsibility to take care of the least as Matthew 25 instructs - but, so far the discussion has been on either a governmental or economic system to accomplish this - and that has been a problem.

So, please clarify what it is you mean.

Thanks and God bless

Tom

I am not suggesting socialism, I am just suggesting that the “when” in did you feed me when I was hungry? is pretty inclusive and the withholding from some who are too least is pretty exclusive.

Doesn’t matter if you are rightist ,leftist, tea party or pinko, still got to treat the least like they might be He. Its being Christian not socialist .

That part of Jesus frequently gets lost when we say we are against the real least getting help.

Peace

 

[ComputerGeek25]

This is completely wrong. You cannot create wealth out of thin air. What if I was told to buy an appartment building…? The money I would use comes from my hard work. What if the landlords do raise the rent…? Often there are significant factors that go into determining the price of rent. For instance the amount of repairs the landlord has to do on a property, the amount taxes the landlord has to pay, the cost of living, the price of the interest on the money used to buy or renovate the property, New cost imposed by government on the property to comply with regulations, all these things and more go into the cost of an appartment. Think of that next time you think “there ought to be a law”, or the landlord is just greedy.

 

[ComputerGeek25]

This exportation of jobs is in part a response to the distributive justice imposed by the gov’t. The Gov’t created the problem of a high cost to do business in America and then we complain about business finding a solution to the problem. That said, I would like to see the importation of cheap goods from unfair labor markets stopped. I think a two fold solution would work best. Our costs to do business have to go down and the importing countries need to have a tarrif until the work practices in that country are more fair.

I once read an article/commentary, not too long ago, about a related topic.

The way that tax codes and other regulations are written, it benefits any company of size to offshore certain aspects of the business. It is profitable for businesses to hire an army of lawyers and accounts and to offshore things to use loopholes.

Of course, people commented that “oh those evil businesses.” But, they do it because we allow them to do it. The US has the 2nd highest corporate taxes in the world. Of course businesses are looking for a way around that.

I think we need to look at the tax code, close loopholes and create a more fair tax system.

 

[cdeterma]

Look just to be clear, I started posting on this blog to work out what I thought was inaccruate about the way social justice was explained in class. I am not trying to insult anyone. The suggestion to read Caritas in veritate was great!

There is a lot about redistribution of wealth in it. I think the Pope was trying to convey the message that state mechanisms for redistributing wealth are at best a stop-gap measure. There are many moral hazzards recongnized by the encyclical in a wellfare system. Let me know if I am wrong, but I think the point of the encyclical is to develope the underclass by expanding their knowledge and ability to fend for themselves. I am to the part where it talks about the free market…about page 25.

 

[JessMcLean]

I nearly left the church last week at confirmation class. I’m older and am taking classes to get confirmed since I have returned to the church. The issue was social justice. The class leader said that their Faith Formation Minister class put on by the diocese said that social and distributive justice is necessary to live the christian life. That class she was tought in said, “as wealth accumulates in a community it is the government’s job to equitably distribute that wealth.” This is communism! Wealth doesn’t accumulate, it is earned and created through effort and work. If the catholic church is about that then either I’ll find a new church or some changes need to be made.

A very similar thing happened in our RCIA meeting last week. I have recently converted and question this position just as you did.

First - there is significant dis-agreement about this subject. So don’t leave! Read up on it and speak out.

History has caused the fading of Kingdoms and those economic coditions. The church responsibility and position has shifted to provide guidance under these new conditions. . In fact, it started with Pope Leo XIII’s encyclical, [LEO XIII, ENCYCLICAL LETTER RERUM NOVARUM (MAY 15, 1891] was an early indication of some adjustment for them.

Lets examine some background regarding the erroneous claim that socialist “re-distribution of wealth” is a Christian requirement.

The catechism states:

Paragraph 1928 states: Society ensures social justice when it provides the conditions that allow associations or individuals to obtain what is their due, according to their nature and their vocation. Social justice is linked to the common good and the exercise of authority.

Paragraph 2431 states The responsibility of the state. …it presupposes sure guarantees of individual freedom and private property, as well as a stable currency and efficient public services. Hence the principal task of the state is to guarantee this security, so that those who work and produce can enjoy the fruits of their labors and thus feel encouraged to work efficiently and honestly. . . . Another task of the state is that of overseeing and directing the exercise of human rights in the economic sector. However, primary responsibility in this area belongs not to the state but to individuals and to the various groups and associations which make up society.

Paragraph 2427 states “Human work proceeds directly from persons created in the image of God and called to prolong the work of creation by subduing the earth, both with and for one another. Hence work is a duty: "If any one will not work, let him not eat. "Work honors the Creator’s gifts and the talents received from him. It can also be redemptive. By enduring the hardship of work in union with Jesus, the carpenter of Nazareth and the one crucified on Calvary, man collaborates in a certain fashion with the Son of God in his redemptive work. He shows himself to be a disciple of Christ by carrying the cross, daily, in the work he is called to accomplish. Work can be a means of sanctification and a way of animating earthly realities with the Spirit of Christ.

Paragraph 2427 is apparently based upon 2 Thessalonians: Chapter 3 “…… For we did not act in a disorderly way among you, nor did we eat food received free from anyone. On the contrary, in toil and drudgery, night and day we worked, so as not to burden any of you. Not that we do not have the right. Rather, we wanted to present ourselves as a model for you, so that you might imitate us. In fact, when we were with you, we instructed you that if anyone was unwilling to work, neither should that one eat.”

Pope Leo XIII’s encyclical, [LEO XIII, ENCYCLICAL LETTER RERUM NOVARUM (MAY 15, 1891]. His “attention was focused on individual workers, their working hours, job protection, and the ability to establish savings. In it Leo condemns socialism, forecasts its demise and lists reasons why it would fail. According to Leo, socialism violated the principles of private property, personal initiative, and natural inequality.30 He also rejected much of capitalism and urged the adoption of a course between the two systems. He endorsed the concept of private property but rejected capitalism’s reliance on free markets. In addition, he urged the establishment of a “just wage”–one that would not be left to the free consent of the parties.” [Michael Novak]

Most of what Pope Leo XIII objected to in his encylical, has been corrected in our capitalistic democracy, They are issues such as social issues, working conditions, unemployment, welfare and generosity NEVER SEEN IN ANY other government such as ours. This includes creation of jobs along with workers ability for financial independence never before seen in history by any socialst form of government.

Never in history have the poor been able to move from poverty to a FAR higher standard of living than those who live here and have migrated to this country. Additionally we have provided MORE, for the poor worldwide, than any other nation in history. This is in addtion to giving up our lives to provide them with the same freedom for innovation and wealth creation. IE: Europe, Japan, etc after WWII.

If you know of any other economy who has done as much as ours for the poor - please let me know what it is.

Get on the Internet and search out the writings of Michael Novak concerning this and liberation theology on the internet. He is far more learned than I and details the perspective with excellence.

Jess McLean

 

[Black_Rose]

If you know of any other economy who has done as much as ours for the poor - please let me know what it is.

Get on the Internet and search out the writings of Michael Novak concerning this and liberation theology on the internet. He is far more learned than I and details the perspective with excellence.

Jess McLean

I could say the same about Henry CK Liu of whom I have a much higher opinion for than Michael Novak.

One could also argue that the social democratic tradition of Western Europe has a much better rate of poverty reduction for its own citizens than the US.

 

[cdeterma]

I could say the same about Henry CK Liu of whom I have a much higher opinion for than Michael Novak.

One could also argue that the social democratic tradition of Western Europe has a much better rate of poverty reduction for its own citizens than the US.

One could say it but after taliking with people from Europe it doesn’t hold up. If you’re born poor in Europe you stay poor. there is very much a class system still in play over there.

 

[sedonaman]

Actually some wealth does accumulate, that’s why on your taxes there are unearned portions and gains made from investments with no risk.
…

You are assuming that money is wealth. Money is a store of value and a medium of exchange. Wealth is the goods and services that a society provides for its members. You can have a poor country with lots of money [think Germany of 1923]. If money was wealth, the government could create more wealth by simply printing more money. The Spaniards thought they could get more wealth by importing more gold from the New World in the 16th century. This had the same effect as printing more money *.

The notion that unearned wealth is not true wealth is Marxist thought. Consider what happens when you get “unearned” returns on your investment. You loan money and someone borrows it. In the process of borrowing and lending, the borrower has moved money from the future to the present. He must create wealth to repay you your principle plus interest that represents the value of moving money from the future to the present.

So all wealth in the end is created.*

 

[Black_Rose]

.

So all wealth in the end is created.

One could doubt this since natural resources can be considered wealth as it has utility in so far that it can be parlayed into consumable goods. If natural resources, which are not created by the efforts of man (although their discovery and exploitation do require human effort) but by natural processes, then not much consumable goods would be created.

Of course, money is not wealth, but I want to ask what do the people on this forum think is the correlation to claims to wealth — ownership of bonds and stocks, and claims to inheritances, and high salaries — and the wealth created by the individual who holds those claims?

 

[sedonaman]

One could doubt this since natural resources can be considered wealth as it has utility in so far that it can be parlayed into consumable goods.

But it is not wealth until someone makes something of use out of it. For thousands of years, the countries in the Middle East sat on vast oil deposits that were not wealth because 1) no one had any use for it, and 2) no one made a consumable good out of it until the 20th century.

If natural resources, which are not created by the efforts of man (although their discovery and exploitation do require human effort) but by natural processes, then not much consumable goods would be created.

I don’t understand this incomplete sentence.

Of course, money is not wealth, but I want to ask what do the people on this forum think is the correlation to claims to wealth — ownership of bonds and stocks, and claims to inheritances, and high salaries — and the wealth created by the individual who holds those claims?

If I understand this correctly, the correlation is determined by what some is willing to pay.

I cannot overemphasize that I’m talking about economic wealth, not spiritual wealth.

 

[JessMcLean]

One could say it but after taliking with people from Europe it doesn’t hold up. If you’re born poor in Europe you stay poor. there is very much a class system still in play over there.

Then why do those from Europe, who can afford it, come here for medical, investment etc? I have known of many. I know of NOT ONE who went there for the same reasons.

Seems to me that the Leo XIII and the catechism do not support socialism, nor does Novak - nor me nor most anyone who has participated in both systems. It would also seem that many in this country do not support it if the polls are to be believed.

Socialism has proven in modern history not to serve the intended purpose without killing innovation and creativity which in turn generate higher standards of living and more personal security. That’s why people run from it when they can.

I stand on the demonstrated facts that our capitalistic system has worked far better than any of modern times - How else can you explain the people swarming here from EVERY other country where they are not trapped by their government of miserable economic conditions.

Jess McLean

 

[sedonaman]

…
I stand on the demonstrated facts that our capitalistic system has worked far better than any of modern times - How else can you explain the people swarming here from EVERY other country where they are not trapped by their government of miserable economic conditions.
Jess McLean

And the very short line to get out of the U.S. Things never got so bad that more than a few [with BDS] opted to leave.

 

[Tom_Qualey]

Hi, Jess,

I think you have hit the nail on the head.

Anyone looking at immigratin patterns sees people fleeing repressive and stangant governments to those that offer opportunities. Mexico’s biggest source of income - is the money sent back to Mexico from those who earn money in other countries. This tells me that opportunities are limited - and with so much cash coming in (or,at least used to come in…) there is no felt need to change anything. People fled the Balkan areas and went to Italy - economic and ethnic repression were killing people - and leaving seemed to be the only way to address this situation. Did the Italians welcome the Slavic peoples trying to flee repression? Of course not. These illegal immigrants were demanding services (schools, hospitals, health care, food, shelter, etc. The same is true with immigrants from Africa feeling in boats to Spain or Spanish islands in the Atlantic - these people, just like others are seeing few opportunities in their homeland, but the promise of a chance - if only they can get to a new land. Some risk (and lose) their lives in this quest via leaky boats.

Then why do those from Europe, who can afford it, come here for medical, investment etc? I have known of many. I know of NOT ONE who went there for the same reasons.

The quest goes on - and this time from Europe to the US. No other country offers what the US does - and those who can make changes, do so. Now,at least in principle, this is no more dramatic then someone choosing one store that offers free French Fries with a hamburger over someone who, for the same price, does not make such an offer. People naturally move to where they think their best interest lies. Socialism has never responded to the natural and univesal human dynamic - socialism,as a form of government, is always imposed from those in authority. Look at Cuba - while Stalin and Mao can be credited for making the lives of untold millions truly miserable through their enforced rule - Castro has bought into the system and for the past 50 some odd years and continued with his ‘revolutionary’ ideas while establishing his own cult of personality. Now, his brother is in charge - and what do the Cubans have to show for their socialism? No easy answers here - but, there is a simple one: socialism is a universal failure with those who disagree being exiled, fleeing or just murdered. Capitalism has numerous problems, but it offers the promise of opportunity - and there are an abundance of real success stories where people have risen from rags to riches - something that socialism has yet to produce.

Seems to me that the Leo XIII and the catechism do not support socialism, nor does Novak - nor me nor most anyone who has participated in both systems. It would also seem that many in this country do not support it if the polls are to be believed.

Socialism has proven in modern history not to serve the intended purpose without killing innovation and creativity which in turn generate higher standards of living and more personal security. That’s why people run from it when they can.

I stand on the demonstrated facts that our capitalistic system has worked far better than any of modern times - How else can you explain the people swarming here from EVERY other country where they are not trapped by their government of miserable economic conditions.

I agree, Jess.

God bless

Tom

Jess McLean