Genesis v Evolution

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No, though I believe the DNA work being done now, suggests that through mitocondrial DNA, there is a genetic “Eve”. The account is rich in wonderful meditations though 🙂
But the concept of Mitochondrial Eve is much misused as we have discussed many times on this board. Mitochondrial Eve was not our only female ancestor in her generation. See here:
evolutionpages.com/Mitochondrial%20Eve.htm
evolutionpages.com/Mteve_not_biblical_eve.htm

Alec
htp://www.evolutionpages.com
 
Chilean biologist Rafael Vicuna asserts that probably 70,000 years ago God infused a soul in to a “suitably prepared hominid.” For theology the task is to articulate precisely what “infusion” means and what it involves.
Petrus
and
As a Catholic, I have abandoned vitalism and mechanicism and spontaneous generation. Petrus
Well, I don’t agree with you because of the following reasons which I will present in two parts:

Part I

Nobel laureate and Pontifical Academy of Sciences ACADEMICIAN Christian DE DUVE (1) of Christian de Duve Institute of Cellular Pathology participated in The Cultural Values of Science, Plenary Session, 8-11 November 2002, Vatican City, 2003. His article THE FACTS OF LIFE begins on page 71 of this pfd:

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_academies/acdscien/archivio/s.v.105_cultural_values/part2.pdf
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/p...en/archivio/s.v.105_cultural_values/part2.pdf
Here are two excerpts from his article :

Pg. 75: *In recent years, opposition to the notion of a natural origin of life has been voiced by a very small but vocal minority of scientifically trained persons who, while subscribing to the notion of a LUCA appearing de novo on Earth and evolving into present-day living organisms, claim that these phenomena could not possibly have taken place by purely natural processes, but required the intervention of some nonmaterial guiding entity that forced the raw materials of life to interact so as to produce the first living cells and also, as will be mentioned later, directed the further course of evolution (Behe, 1996; Dembski, 1998; Denton, 1998). Known under the name of ‘intelligent design’, this theory, which is close to vitalism, has been magnified much beyond its merits because of its alleged philosophical and theological implications . I shall come back to it when discussing evolution. Let me simply state now that serious flaws have been detected in the scientific arguments brought forward in its support. . . *(pls. read on.)

Pg. 76: 5. *The Theory of Evolution Is More than a Hypothesis- In those words, Pope John-Paul II, addressing the Pontifical Academy of Sciences in a solemn session, on 22 October 1996, expressed the acceptance of biological evolution by the Church. Considering the implications of this statement, the evidence that convinced the Pontiff must be truly decisive. And so it is. Actually, the Pope’s statement was overly cautious. Evolution is not a theory; it is a fact, implicit in the common descent of all living organisms and established with the same degree of certainty. Thanks to the information provided by fossils and complemented by molecular phylogenies, we have a rough idea of the timing and manner in which evolution has proceeded. A schematic outline of its main steps is shown in Table 1. Bacteria were the sole representatives of life on Earth during more than one billion years. The first eukaryotes emerged around 2.2 billion years ago, probably as the outcome of a long evolutionary history of which no fossil trace has yet been found; they remained unicellular for more than another billion years. It is only after life had completed some three-fourths of its history on Earth that primitive multicellular plants, fungi, and animals first appeared, slowly giving rise to more complex forms. *]###

And please let’s not forget that Alec (Hecd2) has stated in the past, “The Theory of Evolution is the proposed mechanism for the fact of evolution.”😃

evolutionpages.com/intro_evolution.htm
Intro to Evolution, Genetics and Molecular Biology
 
Part II

The Pope’s Astrophysicist, MEET THE VATICAN PRIEST WHO SCANS THE HEAVENS FOR THE ORIGINS OF THE UNIVERSE. (HEY, GALILEO — WANT A JOB?) by Margaret Wertheim, Wired Magazine, Issue 10, December 12, 2002

*[snip]
In 1891, long after the Church had accepted the heliocentric universe, Pope Leo XIII officially founded the Observatory so that “everyone might see clearly that the Church and her Pastors are not opposed to true and solid science.”
[snip]
Coyne a courtier who haunts its inner sanctum. Ironically, though, it’s science that got him here. As a Jesuit novitiate from Baltimore, his life consisted mostly of prayer and study. He pursued astronomy and theology with equal vigor, earning a PhD from Georgetown in 1962 and a priest’s collar in 1965. In 1978, he became the director of the Vatican Observatory. Today, he also serves informally as science adviser to the Pope.

Our party is ushered into a room to await His Holiness. He enters accompanied by a burst of song - young priests chanting hosannas. Our conference has been wrestling with evolution, both biological and cosmological. And so has he, John Paul tells us. “The Church’s Magisterium is directly concerned with the question of evolution, for it involves the conception of man.” Though “Revelations teaches us that man was created in the image and likeness of God,” says the Pope, “new knowledge has led us to realize that the theory of evolution is no longer a mere hypothesis.” It’s good to hear, but hardly breaking news. The Catholic Church has long accepted an evolutionary worldview, complete with descent from apes and a big bang beginning. John Paul in particular has championed science and lent his personal support to “Scientific Perspectives on Divine Action,” a decade-long program of which our conference is a part.

As the Pope finishes speaking, Coyne approaches the dais. Their lives have followed similar paths: Both were rigorously schooled in theology and philosophy, both speak multiple languages, and both hail from humble backgrounds. But what a difference a throne makes — without hesitation, Father Coyne drops to his knees to kiss his superior’s ring. As a Jesuit, he is bound by absolute obedience to the Pontiff. Symbolic, ritualized, and utterly expected by a priest, it’s an act of self-abnegation that seems shockingly out of place in a scientist. In this gesture lurks a fundamental tension: How can Coyne live both in the hierarchical world of the Catholic Church and the egalitarian world of science, where there is no higher authority?
[snip]

Coyne rejects much of the current discussion about science and religion. Echoing Immanuel Kant, he insists that belief in God is independent of anything scientists discover. More than two centuries ago, Kant argued that science could never disprove the existence of God. But neither, he said, could it prove Him. That hasn’t stopped many people from trying, and today there is a new fashion for the so-called anthropic principle.*

Anthropic arguments are based on the notion that the universe has been specially tailored for the emergence of life. On both the cosmological and subatomic scales, from the force of gravity to electromagnetic bonds, the universe is shaped by powers that seem finely tuned for life to evolve. Evidence of an intelligent consciousness that built the very laws of nature?
Coyne dismisses this idea as well. “To imagine a Creator twiddling with the constants of nature is a bit like thinking of God as making a big pot of soup,” he declares with a rare flash of sarcasm. A bit more onion, a bit less salt, and presto, the perfect gazpacho. “It’s a return to the old vision of a watchmaker God, only it’s even more fundamentalist. Because what happens if it turns out there is a perfectly logical explanation for these values of the gravitational constant and so on? Then there’d be even less room for God.” In other words, if God is grounded in data, then He is immediately subject to revision every time we get new data — and data tends to improve over time. Coyne sums up his objection to this God of the gaps with an elegant economy: “God is not information,” he says. "God is love."


What’s missing in “this privileging of the cognitive over the empathetic,” as Coyne puts it, is the concept of faith. The crux of the problem is that belief in God requires a leap outside anything science can describe or prove. Coyne insists that this leap does not happen on its own and does not sustain itself. For him at least, it must be continually rekindled: “I thank God constantly that He chose me. But it is not a rock of ages. It’s something I have to renew every day.”

What Coyne calls “the gift of faith” troubled his old friend Carl Sagan, who once asked him, “George, how come God chose you and not me?” If God is so generous, Sagan wondered, then why has He not extended this gift to us all? Coyne’s answer: He has. “God chooses everyone sooner or later,” he told Sagan, “but not everyone realizes it.” Then, with the solicitude that only a true believer could show toward an avowed atheist, Coyne finished his thought. “I hope, Carl,” he said, “that when God chooses you, you will recognize it.”
wired.com/wired/archive/10.12/pope_astro.html
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/10.12/pope_astro.html

Love ya Father Coyne:D Take care 🙂 I’m praying that your health will improve. Sending you oodles of love ❤️ 😃 :blessyou:
 
As A Catholic, I am obliged to consider a literal Adam and Eve.

geocities.com/Athens/Atrium/8410/evolution.html

Science, though valuable, is not the repository of all truth. Divine revelation, and the purpose of the life, death and ressurection of Jesus Christ clearly adds the other necessary parts to the information science provides.

Science, used only as a study of life as a mechanism, cannot grasp this totality and as an explanation for human life, is biased toward mechanistic causes. As a biological mechanisn, man extrapolates an explanation that fulfills this bias. As organic devices, or so the explanation goes, man has no more relevant existance than a plant or animal. Whatever abilities he possesses are simply the result of his genetic programming. This sort of extrapolation degrades the dignity of the human person and reduces him to an ambulatory robot valued only for its temporary utility. I am against separating man from the living God who loves him and cares for him.

God bless,
Ed
First, science does not proport to be the repository of all truth. It proports to seek deligently to discover the truth of the natural world. Hopefully there is much much more to life than science. I would consider faith a huge addition. Smaller additions are made to my life by gardening, reading, quilting, cooking etc.

Science makes no attempt to explain other than the facts before it. It does not attempt to define why in a supernatural sense humanity exists, nor should it. Science has no bias toward mechanistic explanations, science is biased toward facts and theories that are born out by facts. What relevance humans have is not a scientific question, but an ethical and philosophical one, and science doesnt address it. Natural abilities, eating, sleeping, walking are simply genetically programed. I don’t think that argument is applicable as to how we CHOOSE to use our brain (within the limitations of some basic inherited native IQ). The rest Ed, is simply not within the perview of science. They dont degrade humans, value is not science. What becomes apparent is this is how you view science and what it means to you when it crosses into your bible. I’m sorry you choose to look at it this way, but it is your Choice .
But the concept of Mitochondrial Eve is much misused as we have discussed many times on this board. Mitochondrial Eve was not our only female ancestor in her generation. See here:
evolutionpages.com/Mitochondrial%20Eve.htm
evolutionpages.com/Mteve_not_biblical_eve.htm

Alec
htp://www.evolutionpages.com
Actually I wasn’t basing my argument on this. It was just an aside. I have no expertise in mitochondrial DNA, and have undoubtedly misspelled it. I do understand there is a genetic “Eve”. I have no doubt you can prove what you say. It really had nothing to do with the argument. sorry to have led you off on research for nothing.
 
Science is not done by machines, it is done by people. Everyone involved in science brings some bias to it. It would be false to say that science is not exploited, even by scientists, for their own ends, apart from any “pure” scientific work they might do. To separate what science is from how it is actually used would be very misleading. Scientific research does not exist for itself but to solve problems, primarily for the military and industry. Its results can also be used to shape people’s opinions.

The view of the average person of any aspect of science is its public spokesmen. These are people that appear on news programs to explain a difficult or little known subject to the public. When that spokesman is Richard Dawkins or Sam Harris, they take “science” and color it with their own viewpoints and perceptions, which affects how the public perceives, say, evolutionary biology. When a scientist promotes his atheism under the guise of “science,” he is basically telling the public, “When I look at the Science, it is clear there is no god(s).” And they are not the only scientists to have said as much. Once again, my quote is a summary of this clear message.

So, any statement that separates the realm of “pure” science from its public use and image is false and misleading. For me, the Church has the final say on this subject as science is only partially competent to deal with this matter.

God bless,
Ed
 
For me, the Church has the final say on this subject as science is only partially competent to deal with this matter.
Doesn’t that put George Coyne, S.J. in a peculiar position? He accepted the conclusions or astronomical and evolutionary science, and yet he headed the Vatican Observatory. Clearly he did not accept the Church as having the final say on scientific matters.
 
There is a difference between all scientific matters and Genesis specifically. Evolution the science and evolution the worldview, are examples of what I’m referring to. Some people here regard them as two separate things, but in popular practice, they are not. They are inextricably linked.

As you can see, the Church is not against scientific research but it is also for Divine Revelation, the missing component of all science. Certain things have been held by the Church as real, and by careful study, the Church interprets scientific findings by the light of reason and the guidance of the Holy Spirit of God, the latter being something science has only recently rejected for itself. The inventor of the telegraph, Samuel Morse, used these words as the first message transmitted: “What hath God wrought?” as regards his invention. We, when we create, are co-creators with God when we make things with consideration to the restriction to be holy in all that we do.

I don’t blame science for anything, but I do consider what happens when men popularize a version of science for ends it was originally not intended, or when they, as scientists, use their title as a means to convince others of personally held beliefs and biases, especially when they organize around themselves a Foundation (as has Richard Dawkins) to promulgate their beliefs, which is, of course, their right, but it should be recognized that the perception of science is colored and altered when they claim to speak for any aspect of it. If an executive of a major corporation says anything in public that might not reflect favorably on his company and it is published, then the perception is that this is what everyone in charge must believe.

God bless,
Ed
 
Ed, I quite agree with you that Dawkins is both inexcusably arrogant in his evangelical atheism, and philosophically way out of his depth (without realizing it) in making the unwarranted switch from methodological to metaphysical naturalism.

But George Coyne is hardly Richard Dawkins, and he co-hosted (with CTNS) six major conferences – one of them on evolution – in the Vatican with Pope John Paul’s blessing.
 
But the concept of Mitochondrial Eve is much misused as we have discussed many times on this board. Mitochondrial Eve was not our only female ancestor in her generation. See here:
evolutionpages.com/Mitochondrial%20Eve.htm
evolutionpages.com/Mteve_not_biblical_eve.htm

Alec
htp://www.evolutionpages.com
Thanks, Alec.🙂 I wanted to bring to the attention of our audience that as of today, mtDNA has now been used to trace back through all of these natural mutations to the origins of all modern human existence to a woman known poetically as ‘Mitochondrial Eve’, who lived around 150,000 years ago. (1) However, Geneticist Alan Templeton contested the "reliability of “molecular clocks” and the rate of mutation in the human mtDNA used in calculating Eve’s date. “The genetic diversity of African populations was confirmed by later studies and is now generally accepted, but, according to Templeton, proponents of the out-of-Africa hypothesis assumed that genetic diversity reflected only the age of a population rather than population size. He contends that Africa has greater genetic diversity because its prehistoric population was probably larger than elsewhere. Recently John Relethford and Henry Harpending have argued that differences in ancient population size could mimic a recent African origin of modern humans. The data reflect population dynamics, they say, and do not support one model of modern human origins over another.” (2)

Any feedback from you, if deemed necessary, would be appreciated.🙂
  1. cambridgedna.com/genealogy-dna-genetic-genealogy.php#mteve
    cambridgedna.com
  2. archaeology.org/9609/abstracts/dna.html
    The Great DNA Hunt - Archaeology Magazine Archive
(p.s. Petrus, your patience is appreciated since I wish to respond to several other postings prior to responding to yours.:D)
 
They are random with respect to fitness. In other words, when the bacteria are stressed all sorts of mutations occur randomly (as my quotation from Patricia Foster shows - the mutations are NOT directed). Those very few baterial cells that acquire a beneficial mutation (instead of a neutral or deleterious one), are then able to metabolise their substrate and happily return to a state of exponential growth.
I was wondering if there might a system within the cell which promotes mutation (for evolutionnary purposes) and a separate
system which restricts random mutation to occur. My point is simply to allow mutation as being one of life’s basic property as opposed to it being mearly “accidents of nature”.
The process that actually occurs fits no Intelligent Design claim except in the sense that the laws of the Universe are such that in replicating entities, random variation and natural selection make the population, over time, more fit to the environment.
.The driving force is natural selection.I am not sure what you are trying to say here, but there is enough evidence from purely scientific studies to support the notion of self-organisation of matter, of which mutation and selection represents an important element. Nothing about these bacteria require us to create any metaphysical concept beyond the known properties of evolutionary biology.
Dr. Einstein’s view of Quantum Mechanics, through the EPR paradox, was proven wrong by the experiment of Bell’s Theorem. The conclusion came from the probabilty of the experiment outcome which would have been predicted by the EPR as opposed to Quantum’s observer dependant causality’s predicted outcome.
My point being that although the manner of mutation as such could be viewed as random (for there’s no difference in the process of mutation as such, whether it is considered random or controlled), the probability of the right type of mutation to surface
in order to adapt to it’s newly formed environment could, I believe, be seen as being more favorable towards the concept of a built in system, existing within the cell, responsible for environmental adaptibility through the process of mutation.
If you look at any population, from bacteria to people, adapting to an environment through straightforward evolutionary biology, you can say the same. The random process is mutation, the directed process is selection.
If we take a sunburn as an example. The reaction being a destructive process due to a harsh environment. However, the sun tanning process is a positive reaction attempting to protect the skin from the sun’s radiation, by the production of melanine. However, such environmental reaction is an intelligent process, since it has a purpose, and cannot be said to be a random reaction.
I think you mean that we have no clue as to “what” dark energy could be.
Or how it came exist in the first place.
The evolutionary process has a direction, which is that in a static fitness landscape, populations evolve more fitness over generations by the action of random mutation and natural selection (NS is NOT a random process). As for purpose, science has nothing to say about ultimate purpose.
Natural selection is only part of the equation. The proper type of mutation for adaptibilty cannot be left aside, in my opinion. Are they truly random mistakes of nature, or is there more to it? It seems that Quantum evolution, could point away from the
former opinion.
Andre
 
Science is not done by machines, it is done by people. Everyone involved in science brings some bias to it. It would be false to say that science is not exploited, even by scientists, for their own ends, apart from any “pure” scientific work they might do. To separate what science is from how it is actually used would be very misleading. Scientific research does not exist for itself but to solve problems, primarily for the military and industry. Its results can also be used to shape people’s opinions.**I would agree that everyone has a bias because we all see the world slightly different, however, science works differently. It doesn;t seek to convince by argument as by experimentation and replication of results. I’m sure some scientists have agendas, most want to continue in their job and falsifying evidence wouldnt be the way to do it.The fact that some folks, scientists or otherwise, choose to use knowledge inappropriately is no attack on the science of evolution.Scientists do no like the result oriented approach, it tends to lead to bad and untrue results. Scientists operate on hypotheses surely, but bottom line, they follow the evidence.Again, people may adopt scientific works and mold them to their own purposes for good or ill. This has nothing to do wih the science. **

The view of the average person of any aspect of science is its public spokesmen. These are people that appear on news programs to explain a difficult or little known subject to the public. When that spokesman is Richard Dawkins or Sam Harris, they take “science” and color it with their own viewpoints and perceptions, which affects how the public perceives, say, evolutionary biology. When a scientist promotes his atheism under the guise of “science,” he is basically telling the public, “When I look at the Science, it is clear there is no god(s).” And they are not the only scientists to have said as much. Once again, my quote is a summary of this clear message.

I’m not sure I agree that we accept the science based on our view of the speaker. True enough I would if I was convinced that the speaker was someone who by past evidence, indicates I can rely on him or her. To pick out one or a few people who claim to be both scientists and atheists is surely to paint a too-wide brush.

So, any statement that separates the realm of “pure” science from its public use and image is false and misleading. For me, the Church has the final say on this subject as science is only partially competent to deal with this matter.

Yet you continue to ignore the Church on this matter. That’s what intrigues me. Three popes have expressed themselves on the issue. Its been reprinted here at least twice. The Church accepts evolution in general. But you Choose not to. As i keep saying Ed…thats the area I would concentrate on…why do you Choose this?

God bless,
Ed
 
Sadly, there are those here who would reduce the truth of scripture to something else - a metaphor.

To whom do Christians pray?

Is there a living God in existence right now?

Why did Jesus Christ, as God and man, die for all men?

Pope John Paull II said “evolution is more than a hypothesis.” Which simply raises it to the level of Theory.

Pope Benedict, in reference to Pope John Paul II’s statements, said, “He had his reasons for saying what he said” but did not reveal what those reasons were.

Pope Benedict also said that believers should not choose one (Creation) over the other (Evolution), but that Science looks at the question of the creation of man too narrowly. That Divine Revelation is another area of Reason that needs to be considered.

When science places itself above God’s revelation, or attempts to replace it, it is operating outside of its field of competence. The Church holds both truths, scientific and Divine revelation, and provides the most complete answer to why man is here.

It is false to attribute purely mechanistic causes to the creation of man on earth. This is what science does and it says as much on any TV program about human origins. To say otherwise is false.

God bless,
Ed
 
And I want to stress the following Church teachings, located here:

catholic.com/library/adam_eve_and_evolution.asp

"It is impossible to dismiss the events of Genesis 1 as a mere legend. They are accounts of real history, even if they are told in a style of historical writing that Westerners do not typically use.

“It is equally impermissable to dismiss the story of Adam and Eve and the fall (Gen, 2-3) as a fiction.”

At the bottom of this web page is the following:

“NIHIL OBSTAT: I have concluded that the materials presented in this work are free of doctrinal or moral errors. Bernadeane Carr, STL, Censor Librorum, August 10, 2004.”

This is what I believe.

God bless,
Ed
 
I certainly do. It’s been explained to me numerous times by evolutionists and unbelievers. However, far more important than science are the teachings of the Church.

God bless,
Ed
 
Ed, perhaps our miscommunication stems from being on different wavelengths. How are you using “theory”?

Petrus
 
I certainly do. It’s been explained to me numerous times by evolutionists and unbelievers. However, far more important than science are the teachings of the Church.

God bless,
Ed
It has also been explained to you by faithful Catholics who are just as devoted to the Church as you are and who also happen to be scientists. Do you dispute that?

Peace

Tim
 
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