Genesis v Evolution

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This is cumulative selection, very small incremental changes, but occuring with no direction. They don’t intend to make an eye. However, if in some small way they make a better one and that organism has a better survival chance, then unknowingly they will have.
My problem with Evolution, is when people say that natural selection and gene mutation, explains the things that nature produces.

But the fact that an eye would accidently connect to the nervous system, given time, and then give sight to the organism, revealing a “3 dimensional world” to varing degrees, seems to me a bit to purposefull. Doesn’t the existence of a 3 dimemsional world that can be “seen”, and and random production of an eye that can “see”, suggest to you design? You see, the mere existence of an eye, presuposes that there is something to “see” and comprehend; and you would have a hard time convincing me that the existence of a 3 demesional reality that consists of things that can be “seen” is a coincidence that happens to bennifit the existence of an eye. I agree with the random development of an eye given chance, but the existence of an eye and its connection to other things in the world gives me the impression that an eye necessarily exists to “see”; which is actualised to varing degrees depending on the kind of organism. Its doesn’t seem to be by chance that the eyes connection to the nervous system and the eyes ability to recieve data into the nervous system, gives “sight”; so to me, this is Gods design in nature; however, the process by which that design is actualised, by which i mean the mechanics of nature, is blind. Natural selection and genetic drift is not enough to explain why such things should come about by chance in the first place.

Do you get what i mean.
 
Atheism does not remove moral barriers, and the constant theist assertion that atheists are more free to rape and pillage in the streets is unfounded, unprovable, nonsensical, and altogether tiresome.
Hi, Mirdath. Long time no talk to.

While I agree with the general tenor of your quoted statement, especially in the lives of individual atheists I have known, the overall objection to atheism is empirically demonstrable. The violent deaths due to atheistic ideology far outnumber the deaths attributed to all the religious wars in history—last time I read about it, the figure given was about 17 violent deaths to 1.

I am assuming, of course, that all atheists and agnostics on CAF are of the non-violent variety. 😃
 
But what a lot if not most people now mean by evolution is RANDOM evolution - ie without Divine Intervention, simply by chance. Random creation DOES conflict with christianity. I am quite prepared to believe one species emerged from another, but NOT that this was purely random.
You need to look more carefully at what “random” means in the phrase “random mutation”. It does not mean “randomly caused”, obviously not because we know that there are chemicals that can cause mutations and that radiation can cause mutations. The word is shorthand for “mutations that are random with respect to their effect”. During a drought we do not see an increase in mutations tending to make organisms more able to survive drought, we see some such mutations and we also see other mutations making the organism less likely to survive drought and more mutations still which have no effect either way. Obviously in a drought, natural selection will pick out the helpful mutations but the mutations themselves are not preferential as to being good in a drought, bad in a drought or neutral.
Atheism is also a great means of Social control. It also removes all moral barriers so that mass killings in the millions can take place for deterministic reasons
Religion is also a great means of Social control. It also removes all moral barriers so that mass killings in the millions can take place for religious reasons. Merely because something can be misused does not make it incorrect. Religion can also be misused to justify killing: how many babies were sacrificed to Baal? How many died for Huitzipochtli?

rossum
 
While I agree with the general tenor of your quoted statement, especially in the lives of individual atheists I have known, the overall objection to atheism is empirically demonstrable. The violent deaths due to atheistic ideology far outnumber the deaths attributed to all the religious wars in history—last time I read about it, the figure given was about 17 violent deaths to 1.
I would be interested to see your source for that. How does the source estimate the numbers killed in worshipping Baal or Huitzipochtli?

Which side does it put Hitler on?"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.

-Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)

rossum
 
But the fact that an eye would accidently connect to the nervous system, given time, and then give sight to the organism, revealing a “3 dimensional world” to varing degrees, seems to me a bit to purposefull. Doesn’t the existence of a 3 dimemsional world that can be “seen”, and and random production of an eye that can “see”, suggest to you design? You see, the mere existence of an eye, presuposes that there is something to “see” and comprehend; and you would have a hard time convincing me that the existence of a 3 demesional reality that consists of things that can be “seen” is a coincidence that happens to bennifit the existence of an eye. I agree with the random development of an eye given chance, but the existence of an eye and its connection to other things in the world gives me the impression that an eye necessarily exists to “see”; which is actualised to varing degrees depending on the kind of organism. Its doesn’t seem to be by chance that the eyes connection to the nervous system and the eyes ability to recieve data into the nervous system, gives “sight”; so to me, this is Gods design in nature; however, the process by which that design is actualised, by which i mean the mechanics of nature, is blind. Natural selection and genetic drift is not enough to explain why such things should come about by chance in the first place.

Do you get what i mean.
I get what you mean, but your logic is flawed and so is your understanding of evolution.

Why is it, do you think, that we arn’t covered in sensory organs, that seem to be designed to pick up some kind of information that actually doesn’t exist? Why don’t with have some organ that we can study and work out what it was hypothetically disigned for, but without the existance of that thing? If we assume that evolution is accurace just for a moment, would you believe that the 3D world around us actually only appeared with the development of the eye? Do you think that the blind organisms linving in pre eye times, actually did not live in a 3D world? They did live in a 3D world, so the developing of an eye would give them an advantage over their blind peers. However, developing our hypothetical organ perfectly disigned to detect a phenomanon (such as sound or light) that actually does not exist, would be a complete waste of time and energy, becuase, no matter how well designed the organ, without the thing it was disigned to sence, it would be useless, and therefore would not be selected for.

So its no coninsidence that the eye developed and a 3D world (and more importantly light) for it to detect actually exists. Without the 3D world and light, there would be no eye. Not the other way round.

If we imagine for a second that the 3D world we live in exists just the same as now, but light does not you have a different sitution. No light means that the eye is useless and would not give us a picture of our surroundings. Of course if you think about cave dwelling or nocturnal animals you might get a good idea of what that would be like. And you also get an idea of what would be done about it. Some nocturnal animals have developed larger eyes to make up for the limited light. Some cave dwelling fish have lost their eyes. They just take up resources to grow and thus are wasteful of the fishes resources and are a selective disadvatage, meaning ultimatly they disappear.

Another animal to consider is the bat. It navigates and hunts by echolocation. It bounces soundwaves off objects to build up a ‘picture’ in much the same way we use light. Prehaps in a lightless world we would use echolocation to build a mental picture of our 3D world. Prehaps there would be little difference between this mental image and the one we get from assimilating the information provided by our eyes.

Now if you agree with the random development of an eye, given chance, surely you see how much more effcient it is if the chance changes to the eye or to any light senceing organ are put under the pressure of natural selection?

The one major mistake you seem to have made is that the eye randomly developed, and then randomly conected to the nervous system, and bang! suddenly some lucky organism went from perfect blindness to perfect 20:20 vision. It doesn’t work like that. Start small, with a patch of light sensitive cells. Think of small changes acumulated over a huge amount of time. Don’t think of the eye and optic nerve developing seperatly and then coming together. Think about the retina devolping from a particular folding of the brain. It all happens very slowly and with more time then we can even comprehend. Like I said before, a really good book that might make this clearer, is ‘The Blind Watchmaker’ by Richard Dawkins. He devotes a large chunk to solely talking about the eye, which would fully address your concern.
 
Hi, Mirdath. Long time no talk to.

While I agree with the general tenor of your quoted statement, especially in the lives of individual atheists I have known, the overall objection to atheism is empirically demonstrable. The violent deaths due to atheistic ideology far outnumber the deaths attributed to all the religious wars in history—last time I read about it, the figure given was about 17 violent deaths to 1.

I am assuming, of course, that all atheists and agnostics on CAF are of the non-violent variety. 😃
So is truth determined by the amount of people killed by either side? Religion does stretch back a long long way, and in times when atheism wasn’t ever really considered, a lot of conflict was based in rival religious ideology. I’m certain that many more people have died in the name of or as a result of religion then atheism. So is that the messure of truth these days? I always used to think the opposite was true. Normally you can control truth by killing off all the opponents and writing history from there. Christianity has been pretty good at that.
 
So is truth determined by the amount of people killed by either side? Religion does stretch back a long long way, and in times when atheism wasn’t ever really considered, a lot of conflict was based in rival religious ideology. I’m certain that many more people have died in the name of or as a result of religion then atheism. So is that the messure of truth these days? I always used to think the opposite was true. Normally you can control truth by killing off all the opponents and writing history from there. Christianity has been pretty good at that.
You might notice that Mirdath’s original post said that an objection to atheism was unfounded, unprovable, nonsensical, and so on. My post pointed out that there does indeed seem to be an empirical correlation substantiating the basic utilitarian moral objection to atheism. I do not, of course, as a Christian, think that utilitarian moral considerations are any “measure of truth,” as you put it.

Your last five sentences are fairly sweeping rhetoric. However, as you wrote, you are “certain” of what you claim. So I guess that settles that.
 
So is truth determined by the amount of people killed by either side? Religion does stretch back a long long way, and in times when atheism wasn’t ever really considered, a lot of conflict was based in rival religious ideology. I’m certain that many more people have died in the name of or as a result of religion then atheism. So is that the messure of truth these days? I always used to think the opposite was true. Normally you can control truth by killing off all the opponents and writing history from there. Christianity has been pretty good at that.
Hmmm

I would think that very few wars (relative to the total that is) were actually fought for religion or atheism. Ideology and/or belief may have been one of the reason given (or a means for motivating the poor schleps in the trenches and the taxpayers at home) but wars are generally fought for political ends, vainglory, and plain old fashion greed. (not counting defensive wars of course)

Besides this too frequently seen debate of what killed more or less always struck me as kinda silly.

Anyway back to the OP. If the contention is evolution somehow leads to atheism and this somehow leads to war, murder, etc…. how would one explain the existence of war, murder, oppression, etc. long before Darwin drew breath?
 
What is this inconsistency? Evolution is hardly dehumanizing. We’re not any less people because we realize we evolved from other animals.
The inconsistency is that with sex and procreation the way it is done has meaning, no contraception and no in vitro fertilization. The process of a person being created is important. But in the case of original creation they say oh it doesn’t what you believe you can believe what ever you want as long as God did it. That is the inconsistency. If the way in which we were created with the design of pocreation has meaning it is wrong to say the way in which Adam was created does not mater and has no meaning.
 
I think your problem is that you don’t understand evolution. Your on the defensive far too much. Prehaps you should attempt to acctually learn about evolution before you claim it isn’t science. You may find it compatible with your beliefs. If I could recommed a book that might help explain it to you I’d suggest ‘The Blind Watchmaker’ by Richard Dawkins. Don’t be put off by the author, this book isn’t an full on attack on religion.

I have given evolution theory serious thought. It is a beautiful theory that works perfectly and takes all the evidence into account. I’ll say again, there is no better scientific theory. If there was, and you gave me all the evidence, as a scientist, I would change my mind. Evolution theory is open to improvments and critisisms and that is why it is science. You havn’t provided any critisisms of the theory. I’m sorry but simply say, ‘but what about god!’ or ‘but the bible says this!’ is not really any kind of reasonable critisism that anyone should be expected to take seriously.

And if you really think that scientists that promote evolution don’t believe it and are just fishing for funds, then you really are pretty nieve. (No offense intended.)
I think I’m on offensive and not the defensive. Because from a scientific perspective I am not promoting a particular view of creation. I’m against evolution because it claims to e science but really is a faith like all the rest of the ideas promoted about creation.

Statistically the evolution of humans from other animals by mutation is just unbelievable. Mutation causes cancer not a different life form. I’m sorry, mutation is not a scietifically valid mechanism for evolution and a theory without a valid mechanism is a faith not science. I have to believe that people who can not see this truely are brain washed. They will continue to believe in evolution no mater what we know about the complexity of genetic programing and functions. There are too many competing functions that work together that could not possibly have evolved. It is an unreasonale theory and a faith.
 
Ed,

I totally agree with your initial post. If we are to look to “science” to explain our origin (based on what?, since they weren’t there to observe it), are we to ask science to explain the Resurrection?

It comes down to two ideas: God created us as we are, or we are the product of natural forces, a process it’s believers call, evolution. I can’t understand anyone who claims to believe that God utilized the process of evolution, and then inspired the writer of Genesis to lie about it. That makes absolutely no sense.

Either accept what God has said, or accept “science”. Stop trying to straddle the fence. If natural forces could the origin of humanity through random mutations, then how does God fit in?

The Bible states that we were created out of the dust of the Earth. We did not evolve from another life form. It’s either one way or the other.

Certainly God could have used a process such as “evolution” had He chosen. But that doesn’t explain the multiple contridictions in Genesis. The fact that scientists have exsposed fruit flies to radiation and observed the effects of random mutations is the only truly scientific evidence concerning evolution that I am aware of. And that evidence does not support evolution.

So, why do people think that they are being scientific when they accept a viewpoint that contridicts the Bible, defies common sense, and has never been supported by scientific observation? The answer is, atheists have no other explanation. It’s the best that they can come up with. The real question is, why would Christians, especially Catholics believe it?
 
I think that to take the Genesis as extremly literal would transform catholics into protestans. because they would base only on sacred scriptrues rather than in the magisterium of the church.
It is better to relly in the church, the church is maturing with time and achiving a deeper knowledge of everything.

The stance JP2 was that evolution dosent contradict the catholic religion at all.

My own opinion is that the bible is a spiritual book and not a book of sciences. Sciences and theology are not quite the same, theya re different.
One cannot try to find spirituality in a math book, because it is about math.
Neither can people try to find science in a spiritual book.

The Genesis wasent meant to be read as a scientific books, but as a spiritual book that was inspired by God , with a mythological language, influenciated by the jewish culture of the time.
 
Neither Catholic theology, nor scripture, rules out evolution. Period. And neither does an “old earth”, or the existance of australopithecine fossils, rule out God.

Having said that, when scientists speak on political or religious matters, they are doing so as laymen - and their opinion is no more valid than anyone else’s, IMO.

I feel the same way about a bishop speaking on the immigration laws.

Yup 🙂 They have no more competence on such issues than most other people - unless those issues are implicated in what bishops are meant to do & say. Otherwise, they speak with no more authority than any layman in any subject. The same applies to all other political issues.​

To set evolution agin the Bible is silly - it’s like setting a sense against a part of the body: they are both realities of our existence as bodily beings, but they are not related in that way
 
You might notice that Mirdath’s original post said that an objection to atheism was unfounded, unprovable, nonsensical, and so on. My post pointed out that there does indeed seem to be an empirical correlation substantiating the basic utilitarian moral objection to atheism. I do not, of course, as a Christian, think that utilitarian moral considerations are any “measure of truth,” as you put it.

Your last five sentences are fairly sweeping rhetoric. However, as you wrote, you are “certain” of what you claim. So I guess that settles that.
Fair point. I’m ‘certain’ it makes no difference who’s killed more. I’d say it was religion as a historical point, but either way it makes no odds. But I do think the spread of religion (or any spesific religion) has been or can be advanced through dominace in conflict. Old Testament is evidence of this. But anyway, thats a different point altogether. So I retract the my previous post, I guess I missed the point of yours.
 
Hmmm

I would think that very few wars (relative to the total that is) were actually fought for religion or atheism. Ideology and/or belief may have been one of the reason given (or a means for motivating the poor schleps in the trenches and the taxpayers at home) but wars are generally fought for political ends, vainglory, and plain old fashion greed. (not counting defensive wars of course)

Besides this too frequently seen debate of what killed more or less always struck me as kinda silly.

Anyway back to the OP. If the contention is evolution somehow leads to atheism and this somehow leads to war, murder, etc…. how would one explain the existence of war, murder, oppression, etc. long before Darwin drew breath?
Exactly its a stupid point anyway.
 
Hi, Mirdath. Long time no talk to.
Well, not that long, but it’s always good to see you around 🙂
While I agree with the general tenor of your quoted statement, especially in the lives of individual atheists I have known, the overall objection to atheism is empirically demonstrable. The violent deaths due to atheistic ideology far outnumber the deaths attributed to all the religious wars in history—last time I read about it, the figure given was about 17 violent deaths to 1.
Somebody else has already requested a source for that ratio, so consider that seconded. Also consider what I said in another post: religion is a social institution that cannot be controlled by a totalitarian government. China, although often said to be atheistic and godless, has its own state-sponsored ‘Catholic Church’, if you recall – and that attempt at bringing religion under the control of government isn’t doing so well. Stalin did not send anyone to the gulags simply for being religious; he sent them there because their religion was something he couldn’t fit under his thumb. Hitler – Hitler’s contributions to the death toll fall on the side of religion. He was Catholic (although possibly the poorest exemplar of that faith yet to exist) and felt his vendetta against the Jews was a mission from God.

I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord. - Mein Kampf

He didn’t like atheists either:

We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out. - speech given in Berlin, October 24, 1933

The cause of those many martyrdoms in the 20th century was not atheism: it was totalitarianism. Don’t conflate the two.
 
I think I’m on offensive and not the defensive. Because from a scientific perspective I am not promoting a particular view of creation. I’m against evolution because it claims to e science but really is a faith like all the rest of the ideas promoted about creation.

Statistically the evolution of humans from other animals by mutation is just unbelievable. Mutation causes cancer not a different life form. I’m sorry, mutation is not a scietifically valid mechanism for evolution and a theory without a valid mechanism is a faith not science. I have to believe that people who can not see this truely are brain washed. They will continue to believe in evolution no mater what we know about the complexity of genetic programing and functions. There are too many competing functions that work together that could not possibly have evolved. It is an unreasonale theory and a faith.
Offense is the best form of defense. You familiar with the phrase keep your friends close and your enemies closer? If you really want to argue about evolution at least learn something about it. All you are doing is taking a perseved threat to your faith and are trying to defend it. Mutation is a scientifically valid mechanism. Are you a scientist? Have you studied this? We know that not all mutations are harmful like cancer is. Mutations are often deadly. No particuly nice for the concerned organism, but the benifits of those rare good mutations make mutatuion an overall benifit for the specise in general.

So yeah, I don’t believe that you are meerly against evolution from a purly scientific basis. I don’t believe for a second you’ve studied it.
 
The Genesis was’nt meant to be read as a scientific books, but as a spiritual book that
was inspired by God , with a mythological language, influenciated by the jewish culture of
the time.

While it is true, the book of Genesis is not a book of science, it is the word of God. I don’t believe that the word of God is written in mythological language influenced by the Jewish culture of the time.

Rather, I think many Catholics today, including some high in the hiearchy have lost their faith. They have succumed to Modernism. It’s not the Jewish culture of Genesis, it’s the post-modern culture of today. For hundreds of years, Jews, Christians and Muslims have believed in the Biblical account of Creation. Now, we know more?

Science hasn’t got a clue about our origins. Nobody saw it. Genesis is all we have. Evolution is for atheists, and politically correct Christians. It sure ain’t science.
 
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