Genesis v Evolution

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**JOHN CHRYSOSTOM: A GREAT FATHER OF SOCIAL DOCTRINE **
VATICAN CITY, **SEP 26, 2007 **(VIS) - In his general audience, which was held this morning in St. Peter’s Square in the presence of more than 20,000 people, the Pope [Benedictus XVI]resumed the catechesis he had begun last week on St. John Chrysostom…

Of St. John Chrysostom it was said," the Pope continued, “that God caused people to see in him another Paul, a Doctor of the Universe. … Chrysostom’s ideal vision is clearly expressed in his commentary to the first pages of the book of Genesis,” in which he meditates upon “the eight works accomplished by God in the sequence of six days.” The saint wishes "to lead the faithful back from the creation to the Creator, … the God of condescension … Who sends fallen man a letter: Holy Scripture.”

212.77.1.245/news_services/press/vis/dinamiche/a0_en.htm
http://212.77.1.245/news_services/press/vis/dinamiche/a0_en.htm

I hope that sheds some light upon our discussions.
 
NTERNATIONAL THEOLOGICAL COMMISSION COMMUNION AND STEWARDSHIP:
Human Persons Created in the Image of God*
  1. With respect to the immediate creation of the human soul, Catholic theology affirms that particular actions of God bring about effects that transcend the capacity of created causes acting according to their natures. The appeal to divine causality to account for genuinely causal as distinct from merely explanatory gaps does not insert divine agency to fill in the “gaps” in human scientific understanding (thus giving rise to the so-called "God of the gaps”). The structures of the world can be seen as open to non-disruptive divine action in directly causing events in the world. Catholic theology affirms that that the emergence of the first members of the human species (whether as individuals or in populations) represents an event that is not susceptible of a purely natural explanation and which can appropriately be attributed to divine intervention. Acting indirectly through causal chains operating from the beginning of cosmic history, God prepared the way for what Pope John Paul II has called “an ontological leap…the moment of transition to the spiritual.” While science can study these causal chains, it falls to theology to locate this account of the special creation of the human soul within the overarching plan of the triune God to share the communion of trinitarian life with human persons who are created out of nothing in the image and likeness of God, and who, in his name and according to his plan, exercise a creative stewardship and sovereignty over the physical universe.
 
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     **The disputed issue over antibacterial resistance comes from a misconception that organisms evolve new structures in response to environmental change.  Instead, it is more accurate to think of the variation already existing in the population, so that when the environment changes it selects for organisms at one end of the variation spectrum.**
The question remains: how did such variations within the organism come to exist in the first place? Certainly an answer would be by random mutation. However, it is this very aspect of evolution which must demand, in my opinion, an enormous amount of transitional fossil forms, something that many believe is lacking. However, if the mutation is done through a direct reaction to it’s environment, it would then become a controlled form of mutation, which we would still observe as random due to our lack of understanding in the processes of life. Nevertheless, such a process of mutation would, in my opinion be considered an intelligent process.

Andre
Why do you think that if variations in organisms are the result of random mutations then we should see “an enormous amount of transitional fossil forms”?

What do you mean by “an enormous amount of transitional fossil forms”?

What mechanism do you propose that would result in mutations that were directed to a beneficial outcome as a result of environmental stress?

Is there any empirical data to support the idea of directed mutations?

When biologists talk about random mutations, what exactly do they mean?

Alec
evolutionpages.com
 
NTERNATIONAL THEOLOGICAL COMMISSION
COMMUNION AND STEWARDSHIP:
Human Persons Created in the Image of God*
  1. With respect to the immediate creation of the human soul, Catholic theology affirms that particular actions of God bring about effects that transcend the capacity of created causes acting according to their natures. The appeal to divine causality to account for genuinely causal as distinct from merely explanatory gaps does not insert divine agency to fill in the “gaps” in human scientific understanding (thus giving rise to the so-called "God of the gaps”). The structures of the world can be seen as open to non-disruptive divine action in directly causing events in the world. Catholic theology affirms that that the emergence of the first members of the human species (whether as individuals or in populations) represents an event that is not susceptible of a purely natural explanation and which can appropriately be attributed to divine intervention. Acting indirectly through causal chains operating from the beginning of cosmic history, God prepared the way for what Pope John Paul II has called “an ontological leap…the moment of transition to the spiritual.” While science can study these causal chains, it falls to theology to locate this account of the special creation of the human soul within the overarching plan of the triune God to share the communion of trinitarian life with human persons who are created out of nothing in the image and likeness of God, and who, in his name and according to his plan, exercise a creative stewardship and sovereignty over the physical universe.
This all about the creation of the human soul, not about the creation of the human body (and specifically the creation of the female human body in the person of Eve), so it is quite irrelevant to this discussion.

Alec
evolutionpages.com/Mteve_not_biblical_eve.htm
 
This all about the creation of the human soul, not about the creation of the human body (and specifically the creation of the female human body in the person of Eve), so it is quite irrelevant to this discussion. Alec
Alec, you may be right that this is irrelevant to this particular discussion, but it is not irrelevant to a Catholic theological understanding of evolution.

As one who has absorbed the post-Vatican II “Hebraic turn” away from Greek body-soul dualism and toward a more Hebrew vision of the psychosomatic unity of the human person, I find disconcerting the idea of a grudging admission of bodily evolution while at the same time reserving the “soul” to an act of special creation. What troubles me is the idea that among a genetically homogeneous group of pre-human hominids living in Africa, two are elected to hominid status – and thus (presumably) to salvation whereas their parents and others in the group are not so elected. What qualities must these two – from that wider gene pool – have possessed in order for God to have elected them as “soul recipients”?

Petrus
 
Who are this “we” you refer to? I have the article link for Pope Benedict’s statement if you want to see it again. I have all of the relevant articles ready. What is not honest is the constant, daily, “believe Evolution” or you will be embarrassed mantra. This is not the only Christian forum on the internet.

Go to any other that deals with this issue. Virtually the same statements and from some of the same people. I’ve gotten a free college level course in evolution on the internet. And why is that? Why would a number of people spend their time here, day in and day out, to say the same things over and over? Certainly not to educate anyone.

And I assure you, the Church hierarchy will not be calling me for consultation so enough with the strange connection between my comments and what the Church ends up saying or doing. Finally, and this I can also document, the greatest concern of the unbeliever is the Church gaining a greater foothold in the world. This is about ideology and not science.

Theistic evolution is simply, “Sure, you can tack God onto that but the Theory don’t need any god.”

God bless,
Ed
So your down to that argument? Because we debate you, we have an “agenda”…oh Ed. And we is the folks here who have carefully and lovingly showed you the truth. We are all faith-filled as far as i can determine from what’s being said.

Seek to find why you need this crutch to mediate between you and God Ed.
 
It pretty clear here:

DID WOMAN EVOLVE FROM THE BEASTS?
A DEFENCE OF TRADITIONAL CATHOLIC DOCTRINE - PART I


The purpose of this essay is to defend a doctrinal thesis which is quite simple, very clear, very classical, but now very unpopular — not to say outrightly scorned and derided. I will argue that the formation by God of the first woman, Eve, from the side of the sleeping, adult Adam had, by the year 1880, been proposed infallibly by the universal and ordinary magisterium of the Catholic Church as literally and historically true; so that this must forever remain a doctrine to be held definitively (at least) by all the faithful. I would express the thesis in Latin as follows: Definitive tenendum est mulierem primam vere et historice formatam esse a Deo e latere primi viri dormientis.
I am sorry, but you seem to be missing the point rather badly.

All you have done here is to repeat your original assertion in its original form. This does nothing to resolve the dilemma that results from accepting your assertion.

Let me break it down into small simple steps in a different way in the hope that you understand the issue.
  1. Either the church has infallibly declared the doctrine of EFAS or it hasn’t.
  2. If it hasn’t, then Catholics are free to believe whatever they conscientiously hold on the subject. (This is a distinct possibility - you are far from establishing that EFAS is an INFALLIBLE doctrine - but let us suppose for the sake of argument that it is).
  3. If it has, then either:
  4. Infallible teachings can change
    OR
  5. The current Church leadership are heretics
BECAUSE:
  1. Currently, the Church does not teach that EFAS must be believed by all Catholics. And that, is simply a fact.
It is not necessary for the leaders of the Church to declare infallibly that EFAS is false in order for them to be deemed heretical provided EFAS has been declared infallibly. (It seems to me to utterly bizarre to have a system of belief in which authority is determined by precedence - but that is the scientist in me speaking and is not relevant to this argument). The current Church leadership promotes a heresy simply by teaching that it is acceptable for a Catholic to reject EFAS and accept biological evolution of the bodies of humans if EFAS were to be an eternally infallible doctrine of the Magisterium. In other words, the dilemma of points 4 and 5 of this mail applies to popes and senior members of the College of Cardinals from the 1950s to today, if we accept your assertion that EFAS is an infallible teaching of the Church.

You still haven’t replied to the simple question.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
 
Alec, you may be right that this is irrelevant to this particular discussion, but it is not irrelevant to a Catholic theological understanding of evolution.

As one who has absorbed the post-Vatican II “Hebraic turn” away from Greek body-soul dualism and toward a more Hebrew vision of the psychosomatic unity of the human person, I find disconcerting the idea of a grudging admission of bodily evolution while at the same time reserving the “soul” to an act of special creation. What troubles me is the idea that among a genetically homogeneous group of pre-human hominids living in Africa, two are elected to hominid status – and thus (presumably) to salvation whereas their parents and others in the group are not so elected. What qualities must these two – from that wider gene pool – have possessed in order for God to have elected them as “soul recipients”?

Petrus
Well Petrus, scientifically it’s hard to see how it can be two, since there is compelling evidence that the minimum bottleneck in the population leading to extant humans was at least 10,000 individuals. It is certain that many of that population were ancestors of extant humans, and if we are to take the idea of two only being favoured with human souls we would have, necessarily, many generations in which human and non-humans must have interbred. I, for one, find that rather extreme version of miscegenation unacceptable, so I am forced to the conclusion that humanity evolved in a population, and that therefore the story of Adam and Eve is no more literal than then creation in six days, 6000 years ago.

As you might expect from my posts, I am quite set against dualism - I believe strongly in the unity of body and mind.

Alec
evolutionpages.com/Mitochondrial%20Eve.htm
 
What troubles me is the idea that among a genetically homogeneous group of pre-human hominids living in Africa, two are elected to hominid status – and t**hus (presumably) to salvation **whereas their parents and others in the group are not so elected.
Salvation isn’t necessary until there is a soul. What salvation is there for carrots, for example? Salvation is only for humans and until ensoulment occurred, salvation wasn’t an issue and therefore irrelevant.
What qualities must these two – from that wider gene pool – have possessed in order for God to have elected them as “soul recipients”?
I don’t think that is something that we will know in this life, especially since we don’t know who those two were.

Peace

Tim
 
I think the recent Popes have been very careful on the evolution issue. Evolution has not been made doctrine.
Nor will it ever be. It is science and not part of the faith.
Now for one to be heretical they must make a definitve pronouncement against the constant teachings of the Church. I have not been aware of this obstinance.
How can a Cardinal even suggest in a formal paper that humans evolved from a population and not be in direct conflict with the quote you posted? Your post stated:
Pope Pelagius I taught that Adam and Eve “were not born of other parents, but were created: one from the earth and the other from the side of man”
How does Cardinal Ratzinger’s document not directly contradict that statement which you are posting as an infallible proclamation by a pope?

I suggest that the statement by Pope Pelagius I is not considered an infallible statement or a dogma by the Church. If Pope Benedict doesn’t consider that to be either, then neither will I.

Peace

Tim
 
So your down to that argument? Because we debate you [Ed], we have an “agenda”…oh Ed. And we is the folks here who have carefully and lovingly showed you the truth. We are all faith-filled as far as i can determine from what’s being said.

Seek to find why you [Ed] need this crutch to mediate between you [Ed] and God Ed.
Humm:( I’m sure Ed doesn’t think he is God. I don’t agree with his point of view but I sure wouldn’t deny him the right to express himself. He is a human being just like the rest of us. He isn’t crippled, only in need of being nudged toward the right path. 🙂 We’ve been down this road before with Ed. 🙂
 
Salvation isn’t necessary until there is a soul. What salvation is there for carrots, for example? Salvation is only for humans and until ensoulment occurred, salvation wasn’t an issue and therefore irrelevant.I don’t think that is something that we will know in this life, especially since we don’t know who those two were. Peace Tim
I’m not sure why salvation is only for humans, except because it was humans who wrote the Bible and the Nicene Creed (“for us men and for our salvation”). I think God is far bigger than our puny, anthropocentric conceptions allow, and She/He probably has eschatological plans for the rest of the universe more significant than merely tossing it on the creational cutting room floor!
 
drpmjhess;2791919:
What qualities must these two – from that wider gene pool – have possessed in order for God to have elected them as “soul recipients”?Petrus
I don’t think that is something that we will know in this life, especially since we don’t know who those two were.

Peace

Tim
Hi Tim, 🙂

You never fail to amaze me, YOU are always RIGHT! 😃 One of the brightest of the bunch. Where is PHIL? !!!

Consider me your sister.

Peace to you, little brother:)
 
Well Petrus, scientifically it’s hard to see how it can be two, since there is compelling evidence that the minimum bottleneck in the population leading to extant humans was at least 10,000 individuals. It is certain that many of that population were ancestors of extant humans, and if we are to take the idea of two only being favoured with human souls we would have, necessarily, many generations in which human and non-humans must have interbred. I, for one, find that rather extreme version of miscegenation unacceptable, so I am forced to the conclusion that humanity evolved in a population, and that therefore the story of Adam and Eve is no more literal than then creation in six days, 6000 years ago.

As you might expect from my posts, I am quite set against dualism - I believe strongly in the unity of body and mind.

Alec
evolutionpages.com/Mitochondrial%20Eve.htm
Superb form as always, Dr. Mac 😉 A genius with a flare for reality always brings out the best of my personality. 😃

You get a hug!😃
 
Thank you for the reply, Alec; I understand that I am most probably wrong in my assertion.
Why do you think that if variations in organisms are the result of random mutations then we should see “an enormous amount of transitional fossil forms”?
Because it seems that,for the proper mutation to occur, there would have to involve just the correct change in the genetic code, allowing for the wanted positive characteristic to emerge.The
probability for this being, in my opinion, extremely small.
What do you mean by “an enormous amount of transitional fossil forms”?
If the above assumption is correct, an extremely large amount of different random mutants ought to exist alongside, having also the capability of resisting the former destructive environment, while being still very different.
What mechanism do you propose that would result in mutations that were directed to a beneficial outcome as a result of environmental stress?
I have read a bit on Quantum evolution, for example, which seems to suggests mutations being influenced, if not caused by the environment itself. It seems reasonable for me to assume the eye to have evolved because light first had to exist.
Is there any empirical data to support the idea of directed mutations?
Have you heard of John Cairns’ experiment with bacteria being deficient in their ability to utilise the milk sugar lactose?
When biologists talk about random mutations, what exactly do they mean?
I assume it’s when the RNA is being replicated, some errors can occur in which the new strand is somewhat different than the original code. However, are we certain that such errors are unintentional or whether some other elements are involved allowing for the change to be made, which in turn would allow for an evolutionary process to occur, making the process of evolution an intelligent design?
Andre
 
Thank you for the reply, Alec; I understand that I am most probably wrong in my assertion.
If by your “assertion”, you mean your view that novel alleles come about in a population by means other than random mutation (and I include recombination in this), then I think you *are *wrong.
Because it seems that,for the proper mutation to occur, there would have to involve just the correct change in the genetic code, allowing for the wanted positive characteristic to emerge.The probability for this being, in my opinion, extremely small.
But in a real ecological situation there are thousands and thousands of attributes, many of which are in compromised and dynamic equilibrium. Normally there isn’t one mutation in the whole genome that is needed to make a complex organism more fit for its environment. There are many routes for a population to become more fit in an environment.
If the above assumption is correct, an extremely large amount of different random mutants ought to exist alongside, having also the capability of resisting the former destructive environment, while being still very different.
Since the above assumption is *not *correct and it runs counter to well established population genetics, we can dispense with the speculation based on it. An extremely large number of random mutations do exist side by side - both you, I and every human alive on earth have on average three mutations in our protein coding genome - that is 18 billion mutations in the world’s human population, just in the protein coding genome alone. The vast majority of these mutations are neutral, some are mildly deleterious, and a few are beneficial (the seriously deleterious ones are rapidly weeded out by Natural Selection and might not even have resulted in viable individuals). Evolution works slowly in populations - evolutionary biology dispensed with the hopeful monster idea, that you seem to be suggesting, a long time ago.
I have read a bit on Quantum evolution, for example, which seems to suggests mutations being influenced, if not caused by the environment itself. It seems reasonable for me to assume the eye to have evolved because light first had to exist
.
Indeed so - random mutations does not mean that mutations are uncaused. What it means is that they occur without reference to the effect they will have. No-one, not even Cairns, has demonstrated a case in which beneficial mutations occur preferentially.See below.
Have you heard of John Cairns’ experiment with bacteria being deficient in their ability to utilise the milk sugar lactose?
Of course - Barry Hall is the guy who started this work:
B G Hall, Genetics, Vol 120, 887-897
B G Hall, Genetics, Vol 126, 5-16
B G Hall, Journal of Bacteriology, February 1999, p. 1149-1155

John Cairns built on this:
J Cairns, Genetics, Vol. 148, 1433-1440
J Cairns. and P. L. Foster, 1991 Genetics 128:695-701
J Cairns et al, Nature 335:142-145

So did others:
Foster and Rosche, Genetics, Vol. 152, 15-30, May 1999
B A Bridges. Nature 387:557-558

I have another 25 references to this work - do you want them? The point is that no-one has been able to demonstrate that the higher mutation rate that arises in starving bacteria is directed to the specific beneficial genomic sites - it seems that the mutational rate across the genome is increased and the beneficial mutations occur as expected from an analysis of the population size and the mutation rate. Patricia Foster’s paper here explains this:
P L Foster, Annual Review of Genetics Vol. 33: 57-88

More recently we have:
Roth et al, Annual Review of Microbiology 60:477-501 (2006)
I assume it’s when the RNA is being replicated, some errors can occur in which the new strand is somewhat different than the original code. However, are we certain that such errors are unintentional or whether some other elements are involved allowing for the change to be made, which in turn would allow for an evolutionary process to occur, making the process of evolution an intelligent design?
It’s DNA that’s replicated from generation to generation not RNA. Errors in replication do lead to mutations, which, as far as we can tell are random in the biologist’s sense: ie they are random with respect to the phenotypic change they cause. (although the rate of mutation is not uniform across the genome and there is strong evidence that the rate has evolved to be higher at sites where mutation is more likely to be beneficial). None of this involves intelligence at all.

Alec
evolutionpages.com/Schoenborn_critique.htm
 
Alec, you may be right that this is irrelevant to this particular discussion, but it is not irrelevant to a Catholic theological understanding of evolution.

As one who has absorbed the post-Vatican II “Hebraic turn” away from Greek body-soul dualism and toward a more Hebrew vision of the psychosomatic unity of the human person, I find disconcerting the idea of a grudging admission of bodily evolution while at the same time reserving the “soul” to an act of special creation. [snip]
Petrus
Hi Petrus,

Curious to know since you have stated you are a “devout Catholic and have a Ph.D. in theology, and yet also work in science” (#33) if you have read Adoremus Bulletin - Vol. VI, No. 4: June/July 2000, Pope warns against “biased interpretations” of Vatican II by Helen Hull Hitchcock

“*The genuine intention of the Council Fathers must not be lost”, Pope John Paul II cautioned a meeting of bishops, scholars and experts gathered in Rome in February. “Indeed, it must be recovered by overcoming biased and partial interpretations which have prevented the newness of the Council’s Magisterium (teaching) from being expressed as well as possible”, he continued.

“To interpret the Council on the supposition that it marks a break with the past, when in reality it stands in continuity with the faith of all times, is a definite mistake”, he told the group in his closing remarks.

The need for correct interpretation of the meaning of the Second Vatican Council was stressed by the pope and others who addressed an International Symposium held February 25-28, 2000. About 250 cardinals, bishops and scholars participated.

The Symposium was the last of a series of meetings initiated by the pope’s 1994 Apostolic letter Tertio Millennio Adveniente. The focus of this session was the correct implementation of the documents of the Second Vatican Council.

The pope stressed that it is important to understand that “with the Council, the Church first had an experience of faith, as she abandoned herself to God without reserve, as one who trusts and is certain of being loved… Anyone who wished to approach the Council without considering this interpretive key would be unable to penetrate its depths”.

Theology has a dual task, the Holy Father said, quoting his encyclical Fides et Ratio: “On the one hand, it must be increasingly committed to the task entrusted to it by the Second Vatican Council, the task of renewing its specific methods in order to serve evangelization more effectively. On the other hand, theology must look to the ultimate truth which Revelation entrusts to it. . . .”*

🙂
 
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