Genesis v Evolution

[impalass]

Life is short, eternity isn’t. You would do well to consider that what you have been hearing are constant repetitions from those who hate the Church. They vary in intensity but all come down to the following: Religion is the root of all evil.

I have a close friend who tells me most of the killing in this world was done by religion. Religion makes you want to harm people.

My God, Jesus Christ, never told His followers to harm anyone.

“My God Jesus Christ, never told his followers to harm anyone” you say…check out history and you will see of previous popes having people put to death…The sex abuse scandal that is worldwide. A lot of harm there

“Life is short eternity isnt”…sounds like you are living a life of fear.

I have friends who are Muslims, protestants and jews and I treat them all as EQUALS.   Not a narrow minded view that I am right and they are wrong....

“repetitions from thse who hate the church” Never said I hate the church,and what church are you talking about the catholic church or the protestant church which have double the membership in the USA over the catholic church.

I have said this before on these forums and I will say it again. By FAR most people who are catholic throughout their life are so because of family tradition. You are what your parents taught you. From an ealry age by the most part, you learned nothing else. Same with Jews, Muslims, hindus, protestants etc…practicing a religion by most part is a FAMILY TRADITION.

Today ALL schools should teach world religions and when children become adults learn  what religion or non belief structure is for them.   Its very narrow minded to just believe what your parents want you to be.  Its time educated people made decisions for themselves.

God bless,
Ed

 

[edwest2]

The same old tired arguments. Have you read the Bible? Have you read what Jesus taught about how people come to Him? You have bought into a series of propaganda statements.

People come to Him because the Father draws them.

He is the way, the truth and the life. And no one comes to the Father but through Him.

You are ignoring that there are Christians of many backgrounds. Jewish people have converted to Christianity, Chinese people have converted, and so on.

I have friends from different faiths. You again, confuse the words of the world with the Word of God. When a friend of mine decided to abandon his Catholic beliefs, for pretty much the reasons you’ve listed, his wife didn’t throw him out of the house, I didn’t reject him. I was there when a Jehovah’s Witness came by his house to tell him about God and the Bible. My friend replied that he did not believe in a book of fairy tales.

My friend is now an usher at his local Catholic Church.

God bless,
Ed

 

[Orogeny]

impalass:

Its time educated people made decisions for themselves.

Since you made the decision already, does that mean that you are un-educated?

One of the jobs parents have is instilling a value system in their children. You obviously were able to make the decision to abandon your faith upbringing once you became an adult. Why do you feel that schools should have made that decision rather than your parents?

Peace

Tim

 

[SpiritMeadow]

This is what I’ve been trying to understand as well.

How does one reconcile theistic evolution with original sin without falling into the dangers of Teilhard?

I posted one on my site just a few weeks ago, entitled Evolution and Sin. It was a reprint from NCR. Go down my archives and read it. Evolution and sin are not incompatible.
edwest2;2880439:

I reject polygenism as the Church does. Adam and Eve were our first parents. Humani Generis is clear on this.
It’s apparently only clear in your mind. Can you ever move forward to John Paul II or Benedict or must you remain with pre-vatican material? And I HAVE SHOWN YOU FROM QUOTES 4 TIMES NOW THAT PIUS SPOKE FAVORABLY TOWARD EVOLUTION RESEARCH.

Evolution is the number one tool in the unbeliever tool box. Jesus Christ was God and man, and came to live among us for a very particular reason. The fault freely committed by our first parents. See Humani Generis.

**There are no unbelievers in this discussion. Why do you keep attempting to brand us as atheists? You know better. You certainly know your opinion is in the minority. That’s why you guys are so angry. **

At no time should science ever appear more important than the established Word as handed down by the Church. The secular world wants its own way and walks in darkness. Science is only part of the answer to the question of the human being, divine revelation, out of which proceeds all truth, is paramount and most necessary.

**Nobody here has set science up as more important that God. A secular opinion is of no import to me. Again are you really trying to brand us as secularists now? Revelation examines science dear Ed, and rightly uses it to express Truth. **

So, my brothers and sisters in Christ, a few here say science is the source of all knowledge but our faith is not vain and our communion is with the living God. Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth and the light.”

**No one says science is the source of all knowledge. You know this of course. You continue to willfully try to make it either or when of course it is not. Sorry that it is for you. We would like to help you enlarge and enrich your faith. **

 

[drpmjhess]

I have no straw. God bless,
Ed

Ed, saying as you did that “a few here say science is the source of all knowledge” is setting up a straw man. You’ve trucked in enough hay to fill a stadium with stuffed scarecrows!

 

[buffalo]

57 years ago I was born and raised a catholic. Not anymore. I accept all people for who they are not because of where they were born and what they believe. Life is too short to worry about such trivial things.

But eternity is forever.

 

[edwest2]

My faith comes first, not attempts by Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, secular humanists, brights, free thinkers, atheists, leftists and anarchists, some of whom sit around all day thinking “How will we tear this down so we can no longer feel guilt or shame or sin?”

Humani Generis. Pope Benedict stated that beyond evolution, there are other aspects of human reason that are vital. I am most interested in that reason that exists beyond what science has discovered.

God bless,
Ed

 

[buffalo]

Ed << It may appear to be easy to put me in some category, but I do not label myself. As I wrote elsewhere, I am continuing my studies in chemistry and electronics, evolution is not, and never was, the “whole” of science. >>

My categories (sides) are rather simple:

If you definitely reject evolution: you are side 4.
If you think evolution may or may not be true: side 3.

I am on side 1: evolution is true, Catholic dogma is true, but they are hard to reconcile. And I don’t want to re-interpret Catholic dogma just yet (which is side 2).

Phil - has that always been your position or have you come to it as a result of our discussons?

 

[SpiritMeadow]

Well, you may think the conflict is between belief and science. It is more fundamental than that. Right now, some do not want to endure sound doctrine. They need a way out, and so, science has become that way.

**What do they need a way out of? Your statement makes no sense whatsoever. There is no conflict between belief and science quite simply. You use science every day. **

It may appear to be easy to put me in some category, but I do not label myself. As I wrote elsewhere, I am continuing my studies in chemistry and electronics, evolution is not, and never was, the “whole” of science.

Your right, nobody said otherwise. You may not wish to label yourself but your show the characteristics of a fundamentalist, and apparently think that Protestant doctrine is more suitable to your needs than Catholic.
PhilVaz;2880838:

Ed << It may appear to be easy to put me in some category, but I do not label myself. As I wrote elsewhere, I am continuing my studies in chemistry and electronics, evolution is not, and never was, the “whole” of science. >>

My categories (sides) are rather simple:

If you definitely reject evolution: you are side 4.
If you think evolution may or may not be true: side 3.

Evolution has no scientific evidence in its favor: side 4.
You reject evolution mainly for theological reasons: side 3.



I am on side 1: evolution is true, Catholic dogma is true, but they are hard to reconcile. And I don’t want to re-interpret Catholic dogma just yet (which is side 2).

The Popes can be put somewhere on side 1 or 2 depending how you interpret their writings on Genesis – for John Paul II see his Theology of the Body

and for Benedict XVI see In The Beginning… and the 2004 ITC Statement (especially paragraphs 63-70). Both Popes see Genesis 1-3 in some sense as “myth” and also affirm macroevolution.

Phil P

Thanks thanks for such wonderful links. I’ve added them all to my blog. Again thanks.!

Throughout history, organized religion has been our whole problem. It doesn’t bring people together (it brings so called christians together) but doesn’t embrace others who by luck of the draw were born into a different culture/religion.

    The Pope recently stated that churches that protestants attend are not real churches because they didn't follow the successsion of the first christian church.  Christians diividing themselves from christians (LOL)   If only religion would put their differences aside.   

The catholic church by far is not squeaky clean.  

57 years ago I was born and raised a catholic.   Not anymore.  I accept all people for who they are not because of where they were born and what they believe.   Life is too short to worry about such trivial things.

**I sympathize with your problem The Church’s statements regarding ecumenism are indeed veiled and hardly helpful. This is fairly understandable, all faiths, without or without the Christian faith tend to define themselves as Doctrinally correct vis a vis all others. It makes it very hard to find common ground. Still JPII did much in this area. Seems Benedict is not as helpful at this point, witness the fiasco over the Muslim statements. The Church’s actual teaching does however accept that God may work as he wishes doesn’t take an authoritative position that non-Catholic, non-Christians are not saved. Such is left to God.
**

Life is short, eternity isn’t. You would do well to consider that what you have been hearing are constant repetitions from those who hate the Church. They vary in intensity but all come down to the following: Religion is the root of all evil.

I have a close friend who tells me most of the killing in this world was done by religion. Religion makes you want to harm people.

My God, Jesus Christ, never told His followers to harm anyone.

No indeed he did not Ed. Still it is impossible to deny that millions have died in the name of Jesus. That religions have mis-used their moral authority and done violence against others is the fault of the believers rather than the faith I would argue. Still, if one removed all “religious” wars, I think the carnage would be substantially down.

 

[edwest2]

You’ve never heard Richard Dawkins speak: “We no longer believe in the Greek and Roman gods, I’m simply adding one more.”

Mr. Dawkins is confident he can do this because science has become his explanation for the existence of everything, and now, for him, God can be discarded.

That is the way most unbelievers think. Science has given them what they need to attack the Church, decency, morality and sin. Ten Commandments? What’s that? “Do what thou wilt.”

Jesus said, “If you love me keep my commandments.”

God bless,
Ed

 

[impalass]

My faith comes first, not attempts by Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, secular humanists, brights, free thinkers, atheists, leftists and anarchists, some of whom sit around all day thinking “How will we tear this down so we can no longer feel guilt or shame or sin?”

Humani Generis. Pope Benedict stated that beyond evolution, there are other aspects of human reason that are vital. I am most interested in that reason that exists beyond what science has discovered.

Up until the 20th century all previous popes believed the sun rotated around the earth… Just a few years ago the Catholic church (John Paul II) apologized to the works of Galileo…the church disputed Galileo for over 5 centuries. Galileo was correct. The vatican was wrong!

July 27/07 Pope Benedict was holidaying in northern Italy and stated to the media. “Because on one hand there is much scientific proof in favour of evolution which appears as a reality that we must see which enriches our understanding of life and as such”

He also stated “Evolution did not answer all the questions and could not exclude a role by God”

Sounds like Pope Benedict is sitting on the fence and trying to have it both ways as the news article stated.

Organized religion teaches a person to stop learning. I don’t understand the fear that religious people have with learning about science. It is a changing world and science is always growing. Do I believe science has all the answers? Absolutely not. The bible is a book of books that most catholics pick and choose what they believe is correct. It can’t be a fiction/non fiction book. If you do a bio of the bible the world is recorded as being only about 6,000 years old. Do christians not believe that dinasours died off 75 million years ago and the rocks in their garden are much older then 6,000 years old.

Do you believe the world is only 6,000 years old?

Growing up in the catholic church I was taught like you that Judas turned Jesus in to be crucified for 30 pieces of silver and that Judas was a defector…I could never understand this. We were taught that Jesus came to this world to die for our sins. If thats the case wouldn’t Judas have done Gods work by turning Jesus in? Can’t have it both ways in the teachings.

I do believe there is a higher power. I don’t believe that this higher power is active in our personal everyday deeds. That would be a selfish outlook. If you can’t figure it out it wasn’t meant to be. To me praying is a selfish act of wanting something from a God that already knows what you want. If God has a plan layed out for us as christians are taught, then praying is a dangerous activity trying to change Gods plan.

I am not trying to argue points with you. I have an open mind and not afraid to express my views. We might be both wrong! Who really knows.

God bless,
Ed

 

[impalass]

You’ve never heard Richard Dawkins speak: “We no longer believe in the Greek and Roman gods, I’m simply adding one more.”

Mr. Dawkins is confident he can do this because science has become his explanation for the existence of everything, and now, for him, God can be discarded.

That is the way most unbelievers think. Science has given them what they need to attack the Church, decency, morality and sin. Ten Commandments? What’s that? “Do what thou wilt.”

Jesus said, “If you love me keep my commandments.”

Jesus said “If you love me keep my commandments”. Most catholics break some of the commandments all the time. As the church says we are all sinners. 1 out of every 150 people in the USA are in Jail/prison. Statistics indicate over 85% in prison are christians and a good many are baptized catholics. Love thy neighbour as thyself. Catholics have a hard time with this, especially people who come from far eastern countries and have different beliefs.

God bless,
Ed

 

[inthecloud]

"Side 2: Macroevolution is true since all the scientific evidence points to this; Genesis 1-11 is myth; traditional Catholic dogma must be re-interpreted (especially on Adam/Eve, original sin, Genesis, etc) along the lines that modern Catholic theologians (like John Haught) are doing so. In this category are GottleOfGeer, SpiritMeadow, drpmjhess, perhaps others. Correct me if I have you wrong! "

I would fit in side two but Genesis 1-11 is symbolic not a myth, and I do belive in that we descend from a genetical Adam and a genetical Eve. And my Adam is very similar to the biblical one. He has modern symbolic thought, including the capacity to know GOD.

 

[edwest2]

Oh no! Who-knows-ism again, which is related to maybe-ism and who-can-say-ism.

The Church has established a Catechism. It contains what has been established by the Church as true and false. I encourage all Catholics to get a copy or access the one online.

God bless,
Ed

 

[edwest2]

And the other, old, tired, ‘religion makes you stop learning’, and ‘religion makes you afraid of science’.

I’m a professional writer with a background in chemistry and electronics. Guess what? I read the science magazines every month. I watched as National Geographic rushed to judgement about declaring that dinosaurs are related to birds, based on a fake fossil obtained from China.

Without an established, rock solid sense of right and wrong, human beings can and do say things that are false so they can get what they want. Instead of believers and unbelievers living in peace, and most do, some look at the Catholic Church as an obstacle to getting what they want. So they bring in heretical ideas and say, “See. This is rational.” Followed by, “You got no evidence fer God. Give that up and play videogames and eat cookies.”

Jesus Christ died for all men so that sins would be forgiven. And I ask again, Why did He have to be born, suffer and die?

God bless,
Ed

 

[impalass]

And the other, old, tired, ‘religion makes you stop learning’, and ‘religion makes you afraid of science’.

I’m a professional writer with a background in chemistry and electronics. Guess what? I read the science magazines every month. I watched as National Geographic rushed to judgement about declaring that dinosaurs are related to birds, based on a fake fossil obtained from China.

Without an established, rock solid sense of right and wrong, human beings can and do say things that are false so they can get what they want. Instead of believers and unbelievers living in peace, and most do, some look at the Catholic Church as an obstacle to getting what they want. So they bring in heretical ideas and say, “See. This is rational.” Followed by, “You got no evidence fer God. Give that up and play videogames and eat cookies.”

Jesus Christ died for all men so that sins would be forgiven. And I ask again, Why did He have to be born, suffer and die?

You read the science magazines every month. Again I ask you is the world only about 6,000 years old?

God bless,
Ed

 

[impalass]

Oh no! Who-knows-ism again, which is related to maybe-ism and who-can-say-ism.

The Church has established a Catechism. It contains what has been established by the Church as true and false. I encourage all Catholics to get a copy or access the one online.

For centuries the catholic church taught catholics about the good deeds of St. Christopher. Carried baby Jesus across a river…Never happened. There never was a St Christoper from the bible times. The church has quietly removed him from the patran saint list along with a couple hundred other former saints that the church now admits never existed…but we all prayed to them. Catholic schools. churches and baptized babies were named after St Christopher…

God bless,
Ed

 

[wildleafblower]

You Say:

 "My personal opinion anyone who claims to be a true Christian of the roman chatholic church and promotes or is drawn to new age stuff is sailing into the sunset with a sinking boat"

   Most people who are catholic probably including yourself  because you were indoctrinated into this traditional system by your parents.  You were probably not allowed to learn anything else growing up.   Organized religion is mostly a family tradition handed down by genertions.  Not really a belief system.  Protestant, Jews, Hindus, Muslims etc. the same thing.  If you happened to be born in a western culture (luck of the draw) you probably followed Jesus.  Born anywhere else your parents would have drilled that faith into you and you would probably not even be on this forum.  and that is a FACT!

Your opinion means nothing to me. It is filled with lies about me. I stand by this fact that I earlier wrote the following:

I think it would benefit you and other Catholic viewers to read the following in its entirety:

PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR CULTURE
PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR INTERRELIGIOUS DIALOGUE
JESUS CHRIST
THE BEARER OF THE WATER OF LIFE
A Christian reflection on the “New Age”

It would be unwise and untrue to say that everything connected with the New Age movement is good, or that everything about it is bad. Nevertheless, given the underlying vision of New Age religiosity, it is on the whole difficult to reconcile it with Christian doctrine and spirituality.(1.4. The New Age and Catholic faith)

AND

Gnosis: in a generic sense, it is a form of knowledge that is not intellectual, but visionary or mystical, thought to be revealed and capable of joining the human being to the divine mystery. In the first centuries of Christianity, the Fathers of the Church struggled against gnosticism, inasmuch as it was at odds with faith. Some see a reborth of gnostic ideas in much New Age thinking, and some authors connected with New Age actually quote early gnosticism. However,* the greater emphasis in New Age on monism and even pantheism or panentheism encourages some to use the term neo-gnosticism to distinguish New Age gnosis from ancient gnosticism***. (7.2. A Select Glossary)

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/interelg/documents/rc_pc_interelg_doc_20030203_new-age_en.html#1.4.%20The%20New%20Age%20and%20Catholic%20Faith
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/p...e_en.html#1.4. The New Age and Catholic Faith

My personal opinion, anyone who claims to be a true Christian of the Roman Catholic Church and promotes or is drawn to New Age stuff is sailing into the sunset with a sinking boat.

Petrus (drpjmhess) you have a message over on this topic for you to address
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=2883348#post2883348
http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=2883348#post2883348

 

[edwest2]

impalass:
If you read up on why this happened, you will see that the Church loves the truth. It investigated, and found little evidence that this man existed. You should also read up on how the Church reviews the lives and miracles attributed to those being considered for sainthood. I did say miracles, which still do happen.

God bless,
Ed

 

[rskempf]

impalass:
Impalass, you imply St. Christopher lived during the time of Jesus. He died around 250 A.D., that is Anno Domini. Jesus appeared to St. Christopher during his life to reward him, in a way, for his faith.