Genesis v Evolution

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“Benedict accepts the evolutionary model”? I never wrote such a thing. You are clearly biased in that you accept only those words that support your bias and cut away the rest. I’m not telling you what to believe.

“Benedict accepts the evolutionary model” and God’s role in what the Pope calls an intelligent (God directed) project. But all that talk about God, even a mention, seems to bother you.

I’m not here to tell you what to believe or think, but clearly, God has no room in discussions, on a Catholic message board, related to human origins.

I’ve heard it all before: Catholic Church… this is the 21st Century not the 7th or 17th. As if what year it is makes anyone smarter. It doesn’t.

God bless,
Ed
 
I’ve heard it all before: Catholic Church… this is the 21st Century not the 7th or 17th. As if what year it is makes anyone smarter. It doesn’t.God bless, Ed
Ed, I know you are ambivalent about serious science, but in case you are interested here is a link to a site with lots of 7-10 minute films on various aspects of evolutionary science. You might find the film of Ken Miller interesting: he is a biologist and a devout Catholic.

evolutionvscreationism.info/Evolution%20vs.%20Creationism/Select%20Videos.html

Petrus
 
Thank you. I did watch the piece by Ken Miller. It was interesting in that not much was said. 150 years… test of time… etc.

I have seen enough evidence that puts geoligical time frames in doubt. I will give you one. Polystrate fossil trees. Buried rapibly, there was no time for them to rot away and they pass through many different strata representing thousands or millions of years. Some even extend into coal seams.

Believe what you like, but even Ken Miller carefully said that nothing is proven in science. And he referred to evolution as an idea. I disagree with a lot of the evidence based on my own research. And I also consider the socio-cultural impact on taking this supposedly benign bit of science and marketing it to as many people as possible.

As I’ve written elsewhere, the Catholic Church and only the Catholic Church will be my guide on this matter. This does not mean that I will not do my own research, which, in a relatively short period of time, has convinced me that even though there is some evidence for some things, evolutionary theory, as presented here, is not what is currently being advertised. It appears that its value as a tool for socio-cultural manipulation far outweighs its value as science by itself.

I am not trying to tell you, or anyone else, what to believe.

God bless,
Ed
 
Ed << I will give you one. Polystrate fossil trees. Buried rapibly, there was no time for them to rot away and they pass through many different strata representing thousands or millions of years. >>

You mean this from Jack Chick comics? 😛

http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/BD15.gif

Polystrate Tree Fossils by Andrew MacRae at TalkOrigins

Polystrata Fossils and other claims in response to Hovind by Dave Matson at TalkOrigins

Polystrate Fossils from Don-Lindsay archive

Sorry this is a well-known atheist phenomenon. Nice try on attempting to overthrow the atheistic view on polystrate atheist trees and atheist fossils that are well known to all atheist scientists, atheist geologists, and atheist paleo-botanists in the atheist conspiracy of trying to keep Christian non-atheist creationism out of the atheist science classes in the atheist public schools. 👍 :rolleyes:

Phil P
 
I see that everyone here is afraid to reply to my post about the special creation of Eve from Adam.

Is anyone who supports theistic evolution and is Catholic brave enough to answer this question:

How can the special creation of Eve from Adam be reconciled with Evolution?

I don’t think it can.

On the other thing it doesn’t have to be if Eve’s special creation from Adam and Adam’s creation by God were Both special acts of creation and that evolution up to the time of Adam and Eve were both true!

In other words why can’t both be true?

And does anyone who believes in creationism only or evolution only have a broad enough mind to even consider the question?
 
Someone recently mentioned to me a Young Earth Creationist named John Corapi. Is anybody familiar with this guy?
 
No, because Darwinian evolution has a different goal than the Genesis account. Science is interested in theories which provide predictive power when extended beyond the observations they were derived from. It is not seeking (and indeed has been proven philosophically to be unable to seek) truth in an absolute sense. That is for other paradigms such as philosophy (which has its own problems) and theology. The Genesis account offers us truths about the creation events, but offers us no predictive power - which is why it should never be taught in a school science class. It simply is not science. So they are not in direct conflict once they are both understood for what they really are.
The point is it still explains a system that’s already explained.

God did it -v- nothing in particular did it.
 
I see that everyone here is afraid to reply to my post about the special creation of Eve from Adam.

Is anyone who supports theistic evolution and is Catholic brave enough to answer this question:

How can the special creation of Eve from Adam be reconciled with Evolution?

I don’t think it can.

On the other thing it doesn’t have to be if Eve’s special creation from Adam and Adam’s creation by God were Both special acts of creation and that evolution up to the time of Adam and Eve were both true!

In other words why can’t both be true?

And does anyone who believes in creationism only or evolution only have a broad enough mind to even consider the question?
This would be much easier to answer if we knew whether or not Adam and Eve had belly buttons. 🙂
Notwithstanding, any Christian who believes that God (as the creator) has the ability to disrupt and/or manipulate his creation at any point in time would almost have to believe He could have manipulated natural evolution at any point in time. The question is, “Why should He have had to?” As an engineer myself, I like to think of God not only as a personal, loving, caring God, but also as a superior engineer who could and would design a universe that creates itself, without any further, “labor-intensive” intervention. Adam could, by definition, have been the first stage of evolution with the intelligence to realize (or know) there must be a God-creator, and thus the first candidate for God’s salvation plan. As for Eve, it’s interesting that Genesis speaks of God creating Eve from Adam’s rib and, as we know today, the ribs (particularly the proximal portions) are one of the richest sources of unadulterated DNA.

I do look forward to your question getting many more replies.

Frank
 
Jerry << I see that everyone here is afraid to reply to my post about the special creation of Eve from Adam. Is anyone who supports theistic evolution and is Catholic brave enough to answer this question: How can the special creation of Eve from Adam be reconciled with Evolution? >>

I’ve answered this in the past. Eve could be specially created from the side of Adam, just as Adam could have been specially created. Miracles are not scientifically testable, and science can say little about them. All we can say from current paleoanthropology is that “Adam/Eve” would have evolved within a population of humans (or proto-humans). Philosopher Dennis Bonnette on Adam/Eve:

“…evolutionary science sees the broad picture of human origins taking place over a time-frame measured in hundreds of thousands, or even millions of years. It cannot focus on events affecting a single pair of humans at a given point in time. Anthropological data and theories are so general that they cannot oppose particular facts about an Adam and Eve, unless even the broad trends of such data are shown to oppose such particulars’ possibilities. Speculation based upon present data can, at best, indicate the nature and activities of early humans, pointing to largely undefined populations and imprecise time periods. It cannot address with precision the conditions of existence of a single pair of humans at a particular, distant-past time. It cannot exclude, a priori, the possibility of miraculous divine intervention whose reality falls entirely outside the fossil record.” (Origin of the Human Species)

Also I’ll remind everyone that the “genetic” Adam/Eve would not be the “biblical” Adam/Eve for this reason:

How does the genetic Adam relate to the Adam of the Bible?

“It’s interesting that both genetics and the Bible show that there is a common origin of humanity. According to genetic data we come from a single male ancestor. In the Bible too it is mentioned that there is a single male Adam and single female, Eve. I don’t equate our results one-to-one with the biblical story, of course, because if you count back through the generations described in the Bible, Adam should have existed in 4004 BC, and our Adam existed 60,000 years ago. Also, our Adam and Eve weren’t the only people alive at the time, just the lucky ones who left descendants down to the present day. But it is nice to know that we arrive at the same general conclusion: we’re all related.” (from an interview with geneticist Spencer Wells, author of The Journey of Man)

Jerry << In other words why can’t both be true? >>

Both can be true, I tend to say God intervened at the beginning of the universe, at first life, and at the creation of the first humans with souls. That might put me in the progressive creationist camp rather than theistic evolution. But I define theistic evolution as those who accept “common descent” (macroevolution, which I do) and who believe in God.

Phil P
 
drp << Someone recently mentioned to me a Young Earth Creationist named John Corapi. Is anybody familiar with this guy? >>

Not sure of Fr. Corapi’s view on evolution, but EWTN is very sympathetic with creationism, they’ve had programs featuring Phillip E. Johnson in the past, and Mother Angelica did not like evolution very much. I provided a link before of Fr. Pacwa/Mother’s commentary on Pope John Paul II’s statement on evolution from 1996.

Fr. Pacwa ultimately gets the translation wrong (should be evolution is "more than A hypothesis") and even says (MP3) “Now if it’s more than a hypothesis, that means it’s a fact… Here they’re saying [the correct translation is] it’s ‘more than a hypothesis.’ If it’s more than a hypothesis, that means it’s the truth!”

Hear the full program (MP3). Pacwa also suggests Adam/Eve or Cain/Abel and those they married might have been Neandertals. Interesting. 👍

Now Fr. Benedict Groeschel seems to be more read in the science and does accept conventional evolution. I have at least one program where he tries to reconcile original sin with evolution. Hear that full program (MP3).

Phil P
 
I think it is important for Catholics to understand the direct link between our parents Adam and Eve and the coming of Jesus Christ. Biblical facts are just as much facts as anything science says.

The works of Jesus Christ were miracles and they happened instantly, without natural causes subject to scientific study. He was both God and man.

Humani Generis, written in 1950, clearly states that Adam and Eve were our parents. And there are other truths that are Biblical and recognized by the Church as facts. Science cannot study the God we pray to but that does not make Him any less real. The Holy Spirit bears witness to Him and the miracles attributed to the saints, today, show His power at work.

While science provides valuable information, without God, there would be no human beings. To assume that God used some kind of long, drawn out process to create man is incompatible with revealed truth.

God bless,
Ed
 
THE WORST creation-evolution program on EWTN’s site, you ask?

THIS ONE with Tim Staples and Rick Salbado from early 1996. Salbado (whoever he is) is clueless. Staples isn’t much better at the time. :confused:

Breaks every rule of science and logic, and uses every creationist argument in the book from Henry Morris to Duane Gish. Runs the creationist spectrum from A to B. Notice that “intelligent design” isn’t referred to because it hadn’t become well known yet (early 1996, pre-Behe 🙂 ).

Phil P
 
To assume that God used some kind of long, drawn out process to create man is incompatible with revealed truth.
The long, drawn out process was the development of the body. The soul is immediately created by God. That is not incompatible with revealed truth.

Peace

Tim
 
Ed << To assume that God used some kind of long, drawn out process to create man is incompatible with revealed truth. >>

Apparently the Pope doesn’t agree:

“…we hear of the Big Bang, which happened billions of years ago and with which the universe began its expansion – an expansion that continues to occur without interruption. And it was not in neat succession that the stars were hung and the green of the fields created; it was rather in complex ways and over vast periods of time that the earth and the universe were constructed as we now know them…”

"…but is it not ultimately disproved by our scientific knowledge of how the human being evolved from the animal kingdom? Now, more reflective spirits have long been aware that there is no either-or here. We cannot say: creation or evolution, inasmuch as these two things respond to two different realities. The story of the dust of the earth and the breath of God, which we just heard, does not in fact explain how human persons come to be but rather what they are. It explains their inmost origin and casts light on the project that they are. And, vice versa, the theory of evolution seeks to understand and describe biological developments. But in so doing it cannot explain where the ‘project’ of human persons comes from, nor their inner origin, nor their particular nature. To that extent we are faced here with two complementary – rather than mutually exclusive – realities.

“But let us look a little closer, because here, too, the progress of thought in the last two decades helps us to grasp anew the inner unity of creation and evolution and of faith and reason. It was a particular characteristic of the 19th century to appreciate the historicity of all things and the fact that they came into existence. It perceived that things that we used to consider as unchanging and immutable were the product of a long process of becoming. This was true not only in the realm of the human but also in that of nature. It became evident that the universe was not something like a huge box into which everything was put in a finished state, but that it was comparable instead to a living, growing tree that gradually lifts its branches higher and higher to the sky…” (In The Beginning… on Genesis 1-3 by Cardinal Ratzinger)

Once again, stalemate. 🙂

Phil P
 
This would be much easier to answer if we knew whether or not Adam and Eve had belly buttons. 🙂
Notwithstanding, any Christian who believes that God (as the creator) has the ability to disrupt and/or manipulate his creation at any point in time would almost have to believe He could have manipulated natural evolution at any point in time. The question is, “Why should He have had to?” As an engineer myself, I like to think of God not only as a personal, loving, caring God, but also as a superior engineer who could and would design a universe that creates itself, without any further, “labor-intensive” intervention. Adam could, by definition, have been the first stage of evolution with the intelligence to realize (or know) there must be a God-creator, and thus the first candidate for God’s salvation plan. As for Eve, it’s interesting that Genesis speaks of God creating Eve from Adam’s rib and, as we know today, the ribs (particularly the proximal portions) are one of the richest sources of unadulterated DNA.

I do look forward to your question getting many more replies.

Frank
We share the same viewpoint. I always figure Adam was the first person who looked up and wondered how, why, and most expecially who? Sin entered the world when the first human decided to allow or cause harm to another human for selfish reasons. I think God created the mostly intellectually beautiful universe immaginable. And I expect that one day we will have a Unified theory, and it will be elegantly simple.

Ps…okay science people…before man had language how did he think? In pictures? I can come up with no other solution. And would that be a reasonable way to construct how animals think?
 
The long, drawn out process was the development of the body. The soul is immediately created by God. That is not incompatible with revealed truth.

Peace

Tim
I think its time to leave poor Ed alone. He’s run out of arguments and what he mumbles now is so easy to attack on pure logic as to be embarassing. He has lost and he knows he’s lost, but he intends to continue stubbornly on his own path. I somehow seems to soothe his conscious by attempting to maintain that somehow the Church is still along side.
 
Answer me this: does the Catholic Church teach as doctrine that Eve was specially created FROM Adam?

How about a simple yes or no to that question?
No.

If I can use more than one word – the Church does not require a belief that Eve was created in the way described in Genesis. You can believe that, but you need not. The Church does teach that the individual souls of each of us, including Eve, is specially created by God.
 
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