Genesis v Evolution

[drpmjhess]

Humm, and only 351 people attended from what I read online.

Yes, it was a great conference - standing room only!

Petrus, RCT
Real Catholic Theologian, not a “tinkerer with ideas”

 

[wildleafblower]

Yes, it was a great conference - standing room only!

Petrus, RCT
Real Catholic Theologian, not a “tinkerer with ideas”

And Teilhards Family would like the Theologians to stop messing around with his ideas. Do you know how many members he has worldwide? And do you also know that most of the conferences from what I heard about people just argue! After dialoguing with you Petrus, I wouldn’t spend good money on travel and hotel accommodations to listen to you or group of individuals argue. Futhermore, I’m not a proponent of Intelligent Design or am I a panentheist or pantheist. And as a researcher, I’ve learned all I need to know about Teilhard. Don’t get me wrong, he was a Roman Catholic Jesuit and scientist but I can now understand why he was sent to China. He mixed science with religion and got panentheism which is wrong. I’m not saying he wasn’t a good person. I am fond of him in other ways. But the legacy he has left has caused people to attack the Church and they usually enjoy supporting Teilhard because of that as well as psuedo-science.

As I already stated, " Humm, and only 351 people attended from what I read online. Teilhard de Chardin hasn’t really helped advance SCIENCE since his followers are Intelligent Design Advocates. The Vatican (Holy See) doesn’t support Intelligent Design. Oh, but ya all can join Phillip Pullman who is a fan of Teilhard using junk science in his novels. His Dark Materials. Junk! The only I Ching is $$$$$. Pitiful! Voodoo dolls and science. Ridiculous pseudo-scientific garbage."

 

[drpmjhess]

wildleafblower:
Teilhard’s Family? My, my – he was a priest, and had no descendants that I’m aware of! I’m sure his second cousins’s granchildren would be proud that the International Teilhard Society exists to discuss his ideas. It was a great conference, with no arguing. The panentheists had filed their fangs dull…

Petrus, RCT, *N.M.A.W.T.I.

*Not Messing around with Teilhard Idea’s

 

[wildleafblower]

Teilhard’s Family? My, my – he was a priest, and had no descendants that I’m aware of! I’m sure his second cousins’s granchildren would be proud that the International Teilhard Society exists to discuss his ideas. It was a great conference, with no arguing. The panentheists had filed their fangs dull…

Petrus, RCT, *N.M.A.W.T.I.

*Not Messing around with Teilhard Idea’s

He has family alive. That is all I wish to say. I plan on writing my own book about him. Don’t get me wrong I love him but am unhappy about certain things he wrote and other people wrote about him. I do have all his scientific writings and well stuff you couldn’t even begin to know about. I don’t want to talk about it anymore. Someday, I will have Alec MacAndrew, Tim, PhilVaz, Zian, Steve Anderson, GottleofGeer, and a few others (maybe you- if you would be nice) and some of my dear close friends and collegues look at it. Of course it would have to have the seal of approval by the Vatican on the book. In the meantime, I can’t support Teilhard de Chardin because I just can’t because I don’t support his Intelligent Design Fan Club nor does the Vatican!

 

[drpmjhess]

He has family alive. That is all I wish to say. I plan on writing my own book about him. Don’t get me wrong I love him but am unhappy about certain things he wrote and other people wrote about him.

OK – thanks.

Petrus

 

[drpmjhess]

Judgment Day on NOVA, about the Dover ID Trial, see it this Tues night.

Phil, my organization held a party tonight for the premier of NOVA’s Judgement Day, as half a dozen of our friends and colleagues were featured in it. We broke out the champagne at the end to celebrate one of the people prominent in the trial who was present tonight. The general consenus was that this was a very fair treatment, even if they didn’t get Kevin Padian’s hair quite right on the actor who played him!

I suspect Intelligent Design Creationism will have a hard time recovering in the public view after this – it has lost all credibility. My most serious complaint is that they failed to mention at all the crucial testimony of Jack Haught, who was the one theological witness for the prosecution. Jack laid out the non-contradictory relationship between evolution and Catholic theology very elegantly. I suppose NOVA was reluctant to add more footage to a two-hour show, and they are a science, not a theology program. All in all, it was an enjoyable and informative documentary.

Petrus

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Wow…this thread has split into so many different directions that I can’t even seem to find the posts I was trying to respond to.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

There…found it…

Thank you for your extremely courteous reply Mr. Ex Nihilo I have access to everything the Pope writes but have yet to find him using the word “design”. The media may have stated that Pope Benedict XVI has remarked “intelligent project” though I have yet to locate it.

Well, he did say this…

“Through sacred Scripture, the Lord reawakens the reason that sleeps and tells us that in the beginning is the creative word, the creative reason, the reason that has created everything, that has created this intelligent project…”

The Pope made the remarks at a general audience at the Vatican November 9th, 2005, commenting about Psalm 136, which gives thanks for creation.

IF he did it would imply that we are the co-creators hence forth we are the intelligence behind every advancement of mankind for the glory of God.

I don’t think that one necessarilly follows the other. Oddly enough, I’ve heard similar arguments put forth by non-Catholics regarding various Catholic teachings.

For example, some non-catholics have criticized our teachings concerning Mary’s immaculate nature-- claiming that if Mary were sinless then this would mean that she would be equal to God because only God is without sin.

However, this non-catholic claim immediately fails once one realizes that in heaven all people will be without sin. If their polemics were correct than that would mean that everyone in heaven is equal to God-- an absolutely absurd conclusion that they would quickly abandon (and this doesn’t even get into Adam and Eve’s original immaculate nature before the fall either).

We as Catholic faithful know that Mary is without sin. We as Catholic faithful also know that Mary being without sin does not make her equivalent to God either.

So too with this whole issue of intelligence within the design of the universe.

We as Catholic faithful know that God allows life the freedom to participate with his creation. We as Catholic faithful also know that God allowing people the freedom to participate with his creation does not make them equivalent to God either.

I’ll try to get back to you tomorrow. You are a gentle person. May the Holy Spirit grant you peace of mind and joy within your heart. You are blessed, yes you are a blessed soul. Peace be with you.

Thank you wildleafblower. And may the Lord bless you as well as Mary takes you into her arms.

 

[wildleafblower]

Hello Mr. ExNihilo, The url (this) you’ve provided in msg. 1227 directs me to an article POPE-AUDIENCE Nov-9-2005,** World is ‘intelligent project’ that reflects divine origin, pope says **by John Thavis of Catholic News Service wherein John writes:

“VATICAN CITY (CNS) – Pope Benedict XVI said that far from being a product of chance the created world is an “intelligent project” that reflects a divine origin… The pope said it was important to understand that “the cosmos is also love.” …He said Psalm 136 correctly points to the created world as the place to find visible signs of divine charity….”catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0506390.htm

https://www.catholicnews.com/religion-census-uses-data-gathered-from-500000-people-in-seven-year-period/

I think there are errors within that article you presented. The Vatican website states:

**BENEDICT XVI, GENERAL AUDIENCE, Wednesday, 9 November 2005 **
Psalm 135,1-9
*"His mercy endures for ever!’ *Evening Prayer - Monday of Week Fourth

*"…The Lord through Sacred Scripture reawakens our reason which has fallen asleep and tells us: in the beginning was the creative Word. In the beginning **the creative Word **- this Word that created all things, that created this intelligent design which is the cosmos - is also love.

Therefore, let us allow this Word of God to awaken us; let us pray that it will additionally illumine our minds so that we can perceive the message of creation - also written in our hearts - that the beginning of all things is creative wisdom, and this wisdom is love, it is goodness: “his mercy endures for ever. . . .”*vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2005/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20051109_en.html
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/b...ocuments/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20051109_en.htmlPsalm

AND to compliment the above information I return to the Vatican website:
New American Bible, Colossians, Introduction

*Paul interprets the relation between the body of Christ, which he insists is the church (⇒ Col 1:18), and the world or cosmos to be one not simply of Christ’s preexistence and rule but one of missionary advance into the world by the spreading of the word (⇒ Col 1:25, ⇒ 28). In this labor of the missionary body of Christ, Paul as a minister plays a prime part in bringing Christ and the gospel as hope to the Gentiles (⇒ Col 1:23, ⇒ 25, ⇒ 27). To “every creature under heaven” the word is to be proclaimed, so that everyone receives Christ, is established in faith, and walks in Christ (⇒ Col 1:28; ⇒ 2:6, 7). *
vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__P10J.HTM
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__P10J.HTM

Oh, after reading the above information, I still think it implies that we are the co-creators hence forth we are the intelligence behind every advancement of mankind for the glory of God.

And may the Lord bless you, Mr. Ex Nihilo Remembering what my dear mother used to say, “Without love, there is no joy.”

(p.s. Hi Tim:wave: I see you posting below.)

 

[Orogeny]

No, I cannot accept the theory of evolution that is taught in high school textbooks as true.

OK, Ed, focus on this question and see if you can answer it. Do you accept any form of evolution?

Only a God-guided Intelligent Project. A form of Intelligent Design that rejects all of the political baggage, and that clearly states that in order for life to have appeared, it had to have a beginning, a first cause, a designer.

Ha! Intelligent Design IS a political tool in that it is an attempt to force the teaching of God in the science class.

And I will continue to reject the “if you don’t believe in one theory you must not believe in any others” as deflecting and diffusing the issue at hand.

That’s fine, Ed. Reject it if you want, but anyone who honestly understands science understands the argument is not deflecting or diffusing the issue.

Peace

Tim

 

[SpiritMeadow]

Well Petrus, she apparently never replied to me due to your intrusion until just now after asking her again about panentheism

**Petrus had nothing to do with it… I did respond! **

Well SpiritMeadow, I figured you were an Intelligent Design advocate and a panentheist and a Teilhard de Chardin fan. Thanks for the evidence which I had earlier commented regarding the Intelligent Design movement has proponents that are followers of Teilhard de Chardin and are panentheists. Of course you aren’t really a Roman Catholic!

**Of course you are wild! thanks for your thoughts! **

 

[wildleafblower]

SpiritMeadow,
Just remember my words are copyrighted! I better not see them showing up anywhere else. (ref.msg. 1230 by SpiritMeadow) Oh, and remember SpiritMeadow, not everyone involved in the I.D. movement are young earth creationists. You should know.

Don’t forget to read this Mr. ExNihilo

Hello Mr. ExNihilo, The url (this) you’ve provided in msg. 1227 directs me to an article POPE-AUDIENCE Nov-9-2005,** World is ‘intelligent project’ that reflects divine origin, pope says **by John Thavis of Catholic News Service wherein John writes:

“VATICAN CITY (CNS) – Pope Benedict XVI said that far from being a product of chance the created world is an “intelligent project” that reflects a divine origin… The pope said it was important to understand that “the cosmos is also love.” …He said Psalm 136 correctly points to the created world as the place to find visible signs of divine charity….”catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0506390.htm
http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0506390.htm

I think there are errors within that article you presented. The Vatican website states:

**BENEDICT XVI, GENERAL AUDIENCE, Wednesday, 9 November 2005 **
Psalm 135,1-9
*"His mercy endures for ever!’ *Evening Prayer - Monday of Week Fourth

*"…The Lord through Sacred Scripture reawakens our reason which has fallen asleep and tells us: in the beginning was the creative Word. In the beginning **the creative Word ***- this Word that created all things, that created this intelligent design which is the cosmos - is also love.

Therefore, let us allow this Word of God to awaken us; let us pray that it will additionally illumine our minds so that we can perceive the message of creation - also written in our hearts - that the beginning of all things is creative wisdom, and this wisdom is love, it is goodness: "his mercy endures for ever. . . ."vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2005/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20051109_en.html
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/b...ocuments/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20051109_en.htmlPsalm

AND to compliment the above information I return to the Vatican website:
New American Bible, Colossians, Introduction

Paul interprets the relation between the body of Christ, which he insists is the church (⇒ Col 1:18), and the world or cosmos to be one not simply of Christ’s preexistence and rule but one of missionary advance into the world by the spreading of the word (⇒ Col 1:25, ⇒ 28). In this labor of the missionary body of Christ, Paul as a minister plays a prime part in bringing Christ and the gospel as hope to the Gentiles (⇒ Col 1:23, ⇒ 25, ⇒ 27). To “every creature under heaven” the word is to be proclaimed, so that everyone receives Christ, is established in faith, and walks in Christ (⇒ Col 1:28; ⇒ 2:6, 7).
vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__P10J.HTM
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__P10J.HTM

Oh, after reading the above information, I still think it implies that we are the co-creators hence forth we are the intelligence behind every advancement of mankind for the glory of God.

And may the Lord bless you, Mr. Ex Nihilo Remembering what my dear mother used to say, “Without love, there is no joy.”

(p.s. Hi Tim:wave: I see you posting below.)

I liked your message to Ed, Tim:

OK, Ed, focus on this question and see if you can answer it. Do you accept any form of evolution? Ha! Intelligent Design IS a political tool in that it is an attempt to force the teaching of God in the science class. That’s fine, Ed. Reject it if you want, but anyone who honestly understands science understands the argument is not deflecting or diffusing the issue.

Peace

Tim

 

[SpiritMeadow]

Hi Tim,

You seem to be a bit swept up in current modernism or fashion, by which I refer to certain common or current ideas which are considered “fashionable” or “modern” by a few. I have my own thoughts and draw my own conclusions.

No, I cannot accept the theory of evolution that is taught in high school textbooks as true. Only a God-guided Intelligent Project. A form of Intelligent Design that rejects all of the political baggage, and that clearly states that in order for life to have appeared, it had to have a beginning, a first cause, a designer. A machine that makes parts has no self-awareness, but we do. This comes from a source.

And I will continue to reject the “if you don’t believe in one theory you must not believe in any others” as deflecting and diffusing the issue at hand.

God bless,
Ed

To bad you didn’t see the NOVA PBS report last night on the Dover school system and their fight against the ID folks. Never was a creationist position more thoroughly destroyed as that was. Even the Judge, offered by then Sen. Santorum, and nominated by President bushie, a thorough republican creationist, called them dishonest. The entire school board was defeated for re-election with a pro-evolutionary slate elected.

Any one should be ashamed to side with the creationist crowd which shows its true colors. And all those fine Christians were issuing death threats to the evolution proponents. LOL…nice gorup you align yourself with Ed. Yeah yeah, I’m sure you don’t endorce them…sure/.

 

[TMC]

Petrus has stated he is a Roman Catholic Theologian but that doesn’t give him authority to instruct Roman Catholics.

OK, not to derail but isn’t “authority to instruct” exactly what “Roman Catholic Theologian” means?

 

[wildleafblower]

Hi TMC,

There are tons of Catholic Theologians today that play around with ideas regarding existing theology. But it is the College of Cardinals that have final word prior to the Pope setting theology in stone which does change over the years for the Church’s flock. As we can see with the New American Bible and Catechism of the Catholic Church that has been handed down to the Synod of Bishops which inturn disperse it to the priests of each parish whom instuct us in the ways of our Faith. You may wish to read this document which might be helpful:

MOTU PROPRIO OF THE SUPREME PONTIFF BENEDICT XVI
FOR THE APPROVAL AND PUBLICATION
OF THE COMPENDIUM OF THE CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/motu_proprio/documents/hf_ben-xvi_motu-proprio_20050628_compendio-catechismo_en.html

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/b...proprio_20050628_compendio-catechismo_en.html

Anyhoo, this is what I was explained when younger.

 

[edwest2]

For the record, I am not a follower of any man. I admire and respect Pope Benedict when he clearly states that all Creation is an Intelligent Project. When the majority of the people in the United States want to acknowledge God’s role in Creation, I agree with them. No wonder so many home school their children so that they can avoid the biased indoctrination that passes for education today.

I encourage my fellow Catholics. Do your own research. Look at the claims being made about human origins and consider who is making them. At one time, it was about science but now, the theory of evolution is being used by many to tell you that you are only an animal and that you live, die and simply rot in the ground. Tell your children who are exposed to this that God loves them, answers their prayers and will be waiting for them when they die.

God bless,
Ed

 

[rossum]

Evolution cannot be directly observed and demonstrated.

Evolution is the change in the genetic makeup of an interbreeding population over time. This can be both observed and demonstrated. If you restrict the definition of evolutin to “the evolution of a new species” then this has also been observed. See: Ahearn, J. N. 1980. Evolution of behavioral reproductive isolation in a laboratory stock of Drosophila silvestris. Experientia. 36:63-64 for just one example. Here “reproductive isolation” is the definition of a species - it is reproductively isolated from other species.

Scientists have found bacteria in dirt that are resistant to regular and synthetic antibiotics.

How is this a problem for evolution? Remember that mutations are random, they will happen whether or not the organism finds than advantageous, disadvantageous or neutral. All you are saying here is that scientists have found bacteria with either a neutral or disadvantageous mutation. This is far from a disproof of evolution, at most it is a disproof of some creationist strawman of evolution.

It exists outside of any supernatural influence, and therefore, reduces man to a mechanism, along with all life.

The theory of electronics, which lies behind the computer you are using, is “outside of any supernatural influence” and so it also “reduces man to a mechanism, along with all life”. Why are you using a computer? Your words apply to every scientific theory. Scientific theories do not allow miracles or any other supernatural elements.

rossum

 

[edwest2]

As a Catholic, human origins is a synthesis of science and divinely revealed truth. The reason employed when studying the natural world must be linked to the reason that comes directly from God. The miracle of the virgin birth, the miracles of Jesus Christ and the miracles attributed to saints today, must all be taken into account.

When Jesus was telling a learned man that he must be born again, the first thought that entered his mind was natural, “Must I crawl back into my mother’s womb?” But Jesus immediately told him that what was born of the flesh is flesh and what is born of the spirit is spirit.

In the same way, science is subordinate to divinely revealed truth. When Pope Benedict states that evolution is not a complete theory, he refers directly to his writing as Cardinal Ratzinger - God is the completing element. God is the first cause.

I think a few people here are intoxicated by science. “Look! We have new knowledge!” But what is that knowledge compared to what God has told us? And why was Jesus Christ born? No particular reason? Could it have been due to the sin freely committed by our first parents?

This is the issue for Catholics - not science. And once again, the philosophy of naturalistic evolution that defines man as a bag of chemicals or just another animal is being widely spread, in complete opposition to Church teaching.

God bless,
Ed

 

[rossum]

1. I am not sure that the vast majority of Catholics have always believed that the Earth was a few thousand years old. Most Catholics who have ever lived have lived in the last hundred or so years, and evolution has been well accepted for most of that time. And while the early church fathers were not familiar with the theory of evolution, I have read that at least some recognized that the Genesis account was not literal. (Can anyone shed light on this?)

Augustine believed in an instantaneous creation, not six literal days, so he was not a YEC-style literalist, though he also accepted a 6,000 year old earth.

Origen said:“What intelligent person will suppose that there was a first, a second and a third day, that there was evening and morning without the existence of the sun and moon and stars? Or that there was a first day without a sky?”

De Principiis IV, 3, 1

For more see Wikipedia: Allegorical interpretations of Genesis

rossum

 

[Orogeny]

As a Catholic, human origins is a synthesis of science and divinely revealed truth. The reason employed when studying the natural world must be linked to the reason that comes directly from God. The miracle of the virgin birth, the miracles of Jesus Christ and the miracles attributed to saints today, must all be taken into account.

No, they don’t.

I think a few people here are intoxicated by science. “Look! We have new knowledge!” But what is that knowledge compared to what God has told us? And why was Jesus Christ born? No particular reason? Could it have been due to the sin freely committed by our first parents?

Ed, Ed, Ed. Why can’t you acknowledge that acceptance of science doesn’t require denial of original sin?

This is the issue for Catholics - not science. And once again, the philosophy of naturalistic evolution that defines man as a bag of chemicals or just another animal is being widely spread, in complete opposition to Church teaching.

So are you going to answer my question or not?

Peace

Tim