Genocide in the Old Testament

[_Abyssinia]

Archeologist’s have discovered stables to breed and keep at least 460 horses, in the city of Piramesse

weekly.ahram.org.eg/1999/461/fr2.htm

Bones of horses, human beings and chariots have been found in the sea at Nuiweba

arkdiscovery.com/red_sea_crossing.htm

Exodus 14:5-7 describes Pharaoh sending chariots to chase the slaves who ran away

Evidence of an eruption from a volcano from Aegean island of Thera has been discovered

‘‘This time difference is rather striking, as it could fit the desert period of 40 years separating the Exodus from the destruction of Jericho, mentioned in ancient Hebrew texts,’’ the archeologists write. Bruins is a professor at the Ben-Gurion University of the Negev in Israel. Van der Plicht is at the University of Groningen in the Netherlands.

thefreelibrary.com/EVIDENCE+BACKS+BIBLE’S+JERICHO+BATTLE+STORY,+ARCHEOLOGISTS+SAY.-a083956818

In 1966, Manfred Bietak, Austrian archaeologist, discovered and excavated ruins at Avaris, which was the capital of Egypt under Hykoses and the modern name for this city is Tell el-Dab’a. Bietak discovered methods of burial differing from Egyptians and the walls of buildings, floor plans etc were like those built by Hebrews in Israel

That is evidence of Israel having been in Egypt in an hieroglyphic inscription that has been dated to nearly 200 years prior to the Merneptah stele

biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/ancient-cultures/ancient-israel/does-the-merneptah-stele-contain-the-first-mention-of-israel

 

[rossum]

There is no Biblical verse which says children or women were actually killed so we do not know if any where killed.

First born Egyptian sons were killed, no matter what their age. Pregnant women were killed, despite being pregnant. How many million children did Noah have with him on the Ark to save them from drowning?

Please give us credit for some sense.

rossum

 

[rossum]

As a Catholic, the passage “Does a clay pot argue with its maker?” comes to mind.

And your God is meant to be a just and merciful judge? “You have committed no crime, so I sentence you to death.”

As a Buddhist, I see that the OT god is guilty of many crimes: “You shall not kill” is correct, it is a pity that He does not follow His own advice.

rossum

 

[sw85]

Hey everyone. I am really confused. There are instances in the Old Testament where God basically commanded the Israelites to commit genocide. How could a loving and merciful God do this? How do these stories fit in with the rest of the Bible which seems to present God as loving and merciful which we believe He is. I’m sorry, its just that these instances have really been causing me doubts lately. Please help. Some examples of what I am talking about would be in Deuteronomy chapter 2, Joshua chapter 6, Numbers chapter 31, and there may be others as well.

A. God is the author of all life. All life belongs to him and exists only because he chooses to sustain it from moment to moment. Why would it be such a terrible thing for him to withdraw that unmerited gift?

B. Speaking of which, God in that sense kills every day, always through secondary media like bacteria or old age. Do you think that’s a problem? Why, then, do you think it’s a problem that he did it, in this case, through the secondary medium of the Israelites?

C. The Canaanites were child-sacrificing demon-worshippers. They deserved to be wiped out.

 

[sw85]

The same God of the Old Testament is the same God of the New Testament. There is no fierce God of the Old Testament and Loving God of the New Testament.

Bingo. Fathers fight for their beloved and sometimes even have to chastise them, sometimes even quite severely. No one imagines a father who spanks his child isn’t loving.

To paraphrase Peter Kreeft, yuppy love, like puppy love, might be fashionable, but father-love and mother-love are war.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

And your God is meant to be a just and merciful judge? “You have committed no crime, so I sentence you to death.”

As a Buddhist, I see that the OT god is guilty of many crimes: “You shall not kill” is correct, it is a pity that He does not follow His own advice.

rossum

The problem with your thought process is that you view death as a bad thing. If I died today, and got to go to Heaven, I would not lament the loss of my life in the slightest. Similarly, any of the people who were innocent and died did not suffer for it, but instead gained eternal peace.

Also, why do you think that God is subject to natural law? As our creator, we have not right to complain when he chooses to end a life. You are below God, as we all are, and you have -no- right to judge him by your petty human standard.

 

[sw85]

And your God is meant to be a just and merciful judge? “You have committed no crime, so I sentence you to death.”

As a Buddhist, I see that the OT god is guilty of many crimes: “You shall not kill” is correct, it is a pity that He does not follow His own advice.

rossum

Notice the commandment is: “You shall not kill.” Last I heard, “you” is a second-person pronoun, i.e., it does not include the speaker.

 

[clem456]

A. God is the author of all life. All life belongs to him and exists only because he chooses to sustain it from moment to moment. Why would it be such a terrible thing for him to withdraw that unmerited gift?

That’s not the point in question. We are not talking about whether God has the authority to do what he pleases. We are talking about whether God literally willed and commanded the slaughter of innocents.

B. Speaking of which, God in that sense kills every day, always through secondary media like bacteria or old age. Do you think that’s a problem? Why, then, do you think it’s a problem that he did it, in this case, through the secondary medium of the Israelites?

C. The Canaanites were child-sacrificing demon-worshippers. They deserved to be wiped out.

Is it possible you could restrain yourself?

 

[_Abyssinia]

First born Egyptian sons were killed, no matter what their age. Pregnant women were killed, despite being pregnant. How many million children did Noah have with him on the Ark to save them from drowning?

Please give us credit for some sense.

rossum

There is no verse that says any Canaanite children or women were killed, I was referring to the Canaanites.

Regarding Egyptian first born sons, Exodus 1:15-21 describes how Pharaoh asked Hebrew midwives to kill baby boys, which they would not do. Exodus 1:22-2:10 describes how Pharaoh asked the Egyptian people to throw Hebrew boys into the river Nile.

There were nine plagues, there were all the years the Israelites were kept in Egypt, 400 years for the Egyptians to change their ways.

This is not a Catholic website, but I recommend reading the article

commontruth.com/ChildrenKilled.html

 

[rossum]

The problem with your thought process is that you view death as a bad thing.

All those people demonstrating outside Abortion Clinics also see death as a bad thing. All those legislators passing laws against murder see death as a bad thing. All those people working to cure diseases see death as a bad thing. I suspect I am in the majority. Westboro’ Baptist appear to see some death as a good thing.

Also, why do you think that God is subject to natural law?

I am Buddhist. All the gods are subject to moral law. Their actions have consequences.

You are below God, as we all are, and you have -no- right to judge him by your petty human standard.

I do not judge. There is no judge in the system of Buddhist Moral Law. Actions have consequences. If you throw a rock straight up, it will come down and hit you on the head. You suffer the consequences of your action. No judge is involved.

rossum

 

[rossum]

Notice the commandment is: “You shall not kill.” Last I heard, “you” is a second-person pronoun, i.e., it does not include the speaker.

But there were three speakers, they were talking to each other.

rossum

 

[rossum]

There is no verse that says any Canaanite children or women were killed, I was referring to the Canaanites.

Weak, very weak. Stalin killed millions, but because he didn’t kill any Canaanites it was all right? Surely you can do better than that.

Regarding Egyptian first born sons, Exodus 1:15-21 describes how Pharaoh asked Hebrew midwives to kill baby boys, which they would not do.

So, punish Pharaoh, not anyone else.

Exodus 1:22-2:10 describes how Pharaoh asked the Egyptian people to throw Hebrew boys into the river Nile.

So, punish Pharaoh, not anybody else.

“President Obama has disobeyed God, so I will kill every first born American man or boy.” Just? Fair? A God worth following?

I think not.

There were nine plagues, there were all the years the Israelites were kept in Egypt, 400 years for the Egyptians to change their ways.

But they couldn’t because God hardened Pharaoh’s heart. Pharaoh did what God made him do, and lots if Egyptians (not including Pharaoh) died because of it.

Exodus 11:10 “Moses and Aaron performed all these wonders before Pharaoh, but the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he would not let the Israelites go out of his country.” (emphasis added)

You are not doing a very good job here. I don’t blame you, you are trying to defend the indefensible.

rossum

 

[clem456]

Pope Benedict

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_ben-xvi_exh_20100930_verbum-domini_en.html

The “dark” passages of the Bible

1. In discussing the relationship between the Old and the New Testaments, the Synod also considered those passages in the Bible which, due to the violence and immorality they occasionally contain, prove obscure and difficult. Here it must be remembered first and foremost that biblical revelation is deeply rooted in history. God’s plan is manifested progressively and it is accomplished slowly, in successive stages and despite human resistance. God chose a people and patiently worked to guide and educate them. **Revelation is suited to the cultural and moral level of distant times **and thus describes facts and customs, such as cheating and trickery, and acts of violence and massacre, without explicitly denouncing the immorality of such things. This can be explained by the historical context, yet it can cause the modern reader to be taken aback, especially if he or she fails to take account of the many “dark” deeds carried out down the centuries, and also in our own day. In the Old Testament, the preaching of the prophets vigorously challenged every kind of injustice and violence, whether collective or individual, and thus became God’s way of training his people in preparation for the Gospel. So it would be a mistake to neglect those passages of Scripture that strike us as problematic. Rather, we should be aware that the correct interpretation of these passages requires a degree of expertise, acquired through a training that interprets the texts in their historical-literary context and within the Christian perspective which has as its ultimate hermeneutical key “the Gospel and the new commandment of Jesus Christ brought about in the paschal mystery”.[140] I encourage scholars and pastors to help all the faithful to approach these passages through an interpretation which enables their meaning to emerge in the light of the mystery of Christ.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

All those people demonstrating outside Abortion Clinics also see death as a bad thing. All those legislators passing laws against murder see death as a bad thing. All those people working to cure diseases see death as a bad thing. I suspect I am in the majority. Westboro’ Baptist appear to see some death as a good thing.

And, as with you, all of those people are living. I’m saying that our state of being alive biases us in favor of being alive. A person who is not alive would not necessarily maintain such a bias, especially if they were in the presence of God, eternally happy.

I am Buddhist. All the gods are subject to moral law. Their actions have consequences.

You’re right, all your gods are, -g-ods. Your gods are not -G-od. They are subject to moral law because they are the product of humanity, who is also subject to moral law. God is not the product of humanity, and is therefore not subject to the moral law that humanity is subject to.

I do not judge. There is no judge in the system of Buddhist Moral Law. Actions have consequences. If you throw a rock straight up, it will come down and hit you on the head. You suffer the consequences of your action. No judge is involved.

rossum

If there is no judgment, then what dictates if an action is right or wrong? Judgment must be made on an action to determine if the actor is worthy of punishment.

 

[Augustine3]

Hey everyone. I am really confused. There are instances in the Old Testament where God basically commanded the Israelites to commit genocide. How could a loving and merciful God do this? How do these stories fit in with the rest of the Bible which seems to present God as loving and merciful which we believe He is. I’m sorry, its just that these instances have really been causing me doubts lately. Please help. Some examples of what I am talking about would be in Deuteronomy chapter 2, Joshua chapter 6, Numbers chapter 31, and there may be others as well.

Leviticus 18:24-30

24
“Do not defile yourselves by any of these things by which the nations whom I am driving out of your way have defiled themselves.
25
Because their land has become defiled, I am punishing it for its wickedness, by making it vomit out its inhabitants.
26
You, however, whether natives or resident aliens, must keep my statutes and decrees forbidding all such abominations
27
by which the previous inhabitants defiled the land;
28
otherwise the land will vomit you out also for having defiled it, just as it vomited out the nations before you.
29
Everyone who does any of these abominations shall be cut off from among his people.
30
Heed my charge, then, not to defile yourselves by observing the abominable customs that have been observed before you. I, the LORD, am your God.”

 

[_Abyssinia]

Weak, very weak. Stalin killed millions, but because he didn’t kill any Canaanites it was all right? Surely you can do better than that.

So, punish Pharaoh, not anyone else.

So, punish Pharaoh, not anybody else.

“President Obama has disobeyed God, so I will kill every first born American man or boy.” Just? Fair? A God worth following?

I think not.

But they couldn’t because God hardened Pharaoh’s heart. Pharaoh did what God made him do, and lots if Egyptians (not including Pharaoh) died because of it.

Exodus 11:10 “Moses and Aaron performed all these wonders before Pharaoh, but the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he would not let the Israelites go out of his country.” (emphasis added)

You are not doing a very good job here. I don’t blame you, you are trying to defend the indefensible.

rossum

Pharaoh’s heart was hardened after the plagues. The plagues were a warning to Pharaoh about who the true God was. Blaming God for Pharaoh’s actions? Is that what you are doing? God did not suddenly ask for the firstborns to be killed, God sent the plagues, he gave the Egyptians 400 years to change their ways when Israel was the Egypt.

 

[_Abyssinia]

And, as with you, all of those people are living. I’m saying that our state of being alive biases us in favor of being alive. A person who is not alive would not necessarily maintain such a bias, especially if they were in the presence of God, eternally happy.

You’re right, all your gods are, -g-ods. Your gods are not -G-od. They are subject to moral law because they are the product of humanity, who is also subject to moral law. God is not the product of humanity, and is therefore not subject to the moral law that humanity is subject to.

If there is no judgment, then what dictates if an action is right or wrong? Judgment must be made on an action to determine if the actor is worthy of punishment.

Well said

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

Pharaoh’s heart was hardened after the plagues.

Before the first plague God said he would harden Pharoah’s heart:

Exodus 7:3 And I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

Your gods are not -G-od. They are subject to moral law because they are the product of humanity, who is also subject to moral law. God is not the product of humanity, and is therefore not subject to the moral law that humanity is subject to.

Might makes right. The thing is God is supposed to be love – not that he has infinite love but that he is love. Yet it’s passages like these that demonstrate he is not love in any way, utterly devoid of compassion.

I highly recommend a TV movie called “God On Trial” about a group of Jews in a Nazi concentration camp. It features arguments for and against God and his mercifulness. This link has a video and transcript of one of the more powerful scenes where a rabbi takes on some of the more unpleasant verses, including God’s lust for genocide. Here’s a small sample:

"We have become the Moabites. We are learning how it was for the Amalekites. They faced extinction at the hand of Adonai. They died for his purpose. They fell as we are falling. They were afraid as we are afraid. And what did they learn? They learned that Adonai, the Lord our God, our God, is not good. He is not good. He was not ever good. He was only on our side. "

 

[rossum]

You’re right, all your gods are, -g-ods. Your gods are not -G-od. They are subject to moral law because they are the product of humanity, who is also subject to moral law. God is not the product of humanity, and is therefore not subject to the moral law that humanity is subject to.

There are only gods, and they are all subject to moral law.

Here is one of the Buddhist gods describing himself:

“I am the Brahma, the great Brahma, the conqueror, the unconquered, the all-seeing, the subjector of all to his wishes, the omnipotent, the maker, the creator, the supreme, the controller, the one confirmed in the practice of jhana, and father to all that have been and shall be. I have created these other beings.” (emphases added)

– Brahmajala sutta, Digha Nikaya 1

Just like all the other gods, that god is subject to moral law.

If there is no judgment, then what dictates if an action is right or wrong?

Better to say “useful” and “not useful”. Do you actions increase happiness and decrease suffering? Then they are useful. Do your actions increase suffering and decrease happiness? Then they are not useful.

Judgement is not involved, just actions and results. If you want the result, then perform the action. If you don’t want the result then don’t perform the action. If there is any judgement, then it is your own judgement in deciding what actions you want to perform.

Mind precedes all conditions,
mind is their chief, they are mind-made.
If you speak or act with an evil mind then suffering will follow you,
as the wheel follows the draught ox.

Mind precedes all conditions,
mind is their chief, they are mind-made.
If you speak or act with a pure mind then happiness will follow you,
as a shadow that never leaves.

– Dhammapada 1:1-2

Buddhism is not Christianity, it is different. There is neither sin nor forgiveness of sin. There are only actions and their results.

rossum