Geocentrism: Gary Hoge's Demonstration Disproven?

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trth_skr:
You are right what I was talking about is not the estimated temperature of a Planck particle (which is >>>> than 2.7 K). I have recently reviewed, “AETHEREAL MECHANICS”, Karim A. Khaidarov,Dec. 2004 (and other papers located here) (bourabai.narod.ru/mechanics-e.htm), where he states:

"So corpuscular ether represents by itself a pseudo-liquid of amers, collected in domains, peculiar drops. Each domain of free from substance aether, that is vacuum, contains ~3·10^62 amers - the Large Planck Number. It corresponds to temperature of aether
TE0 = 2.7** o**K. "
But what I was asking for was a credible reference, a peer reviewed paper in a reputable scientific journal, or a reference from a book by an acknowledged cosmologist, astronomer or theoretical physicist. What you have here is a reference to a self-promoting crank. In other words, you are supporting the claims of one pseudo-scientist (Robert) with another (Karim). That way lies utter confusion. Mark, don’t you see how desperate are these ‘references’ to un-refereed papers by people who base their ‘science’ on preconceived religious ideas?

Robert’s odd geocentric notion (which you appear to buy into hook, line and sinker, even to the extent of using phraseology that is uniquely peculiar to Robert) is based on an incoherent ragtag collection of scraps and tatters assembled from real science; misunderstanding and misapplication of real science; logical inconsistency; and the work of any and every crank who publishes writing on the Internet that vaguely supports his preconceived and idiosyncratic idea of what he personally believes the bible teaches. It is plain that neither you nor he has a sufficient grounding in physics and cosmology to distinguish between genuine science, and fantasy masquerading as real science.

Do you really think that you are called to witness to the world about God by writing about subjects that you understand so imperfectly that you make elementary mistakes in almost every post? Mistakes that are so egregious that any single one would cause me, had I made it, to cower in shame.

God surely doesn’t call one to witness to Him by subverting the truth, or by making a fool of oneself. Mark, I respect the good intention with which you seek to argue the case of geocentrism, and defend, as you see it, your faith. But it is misguided scientifically, philosophically and theologically.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
 
Geocentrism: Gary Hoge’s Demonstration Disproven?
Easy.

What physical properties does the earth possess that would cause the entire universe to rotate around it rather than another planet with like properties?

Okay now back to disproving evolution…
 
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trth_skr:
He actually has done an extensive amount of research on this topic. This should be clear when his book, “Galileo Was Wrong” comes out this year.

I hope you take the time to read it.
Hello Trth_skr,

I was under the impression that Robert Bennett, Ph.D., physics, former Bell Labs researcher is co-author of “Galileo Was Wrong”. Will Dr. Bennett still be co-authoring with Robert Sungenis? Mind sharing with me the name of the publishing company?

It would be great if you could ask physicist Dr. Bennett to join us. Please. (It would be interesting to see two physicists on opposite sides of the pole dialogue.) Bennett wrote the “The Dating Game” : results of radiometric dating methods must be interpreted according to philosophical principles and that data used to “prove” that the earth and the universe are billions of years old can be more reasonably interpreted within a young universe framework.

kolbecenter.org/presentations/Bennett/RDWeb8.htm

He also wrote “Paradigms Lost”: scientific paradigms used to interpret the findings of natural science have changed many times during the course of history while Divine Revelation remains the same. Thus, we do well to hold fast to the latter and to be detached from the former.

kolbecenter.org/catalog.htm

I’m trying to better understand the difference between Positive and Normative Science. Especially, Theoretical Physics since it pertains to Intelligent Design Theory, which is extremely fasinating to me because I’m in the midst of writing my own little theory about it ALL! I’m not a scientist, but I am a tinkerer of ideas. If Sungenis can do it why can’t I? Right?

Thanks.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by trth_skr
He actually has done an extensive amount of research on this topic. This should be clear when his book, “Galileo Was Wrong” comes out this year.

I hope you take the time to read it.

Hello Trth_skr,

I was under the impression that Robert Bennett, Ph.D., physics, former Bell Labs researcher is co-author of “Galileo Was Wrong”. Will Dr. Bennett still be co-authoring with Robert Sungenis? Mind sharing with me the name of the publishing company?

It would be great if you could ask physicist Dr. Bennett to join us. Please. (It would be interesting to see two physicists on opposite sides of the pole dialogue.) Bennett wrote the “The Dating Game” : results of radiometric dating methods must be interpreted according to philosophical principles and that data used to “prove” that the earth and the universe are billions of years old can be more reasonably interpreted within a young universe framework.

kolbecenter.org/presenta…nett/RDWeb8.htm

He also wrote “Paradigms Lost”: scientific paradigms used to interpret the findings of natural science have changed many times during the course of history while Divine Revelation remains the same. Thus, we do well to hold fast to the latter and to be detached from the former.

kolbecenter.org/catalog.htm

I’m trying to better understand the difference between Positive and Normative Science. Especially, Theoretical Physics since it pertains to Intelligent Design Theory, which is extremely fasinating to me because I’m in the midst of writing my own little theory about it ALL! I’m not a scientist, but I am a tinkerer of ideas. If Sungenis can do it why can’t I? Right?

Thanks.
 
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SocaliCatholic:
Easy.

What physical properties does the earth possess that would cause the entire universe to rotate around it rather than another planet with like properties?

Okay now back to disproving evolution…
The universe is rotating, and trying to maintain its center through gyroscopic stabilization. The earrth happens to be in the center and by this virtue is stabilized. In fact the monentum of the rotating universe is used to haelp stabilze the earth.
 
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ISABUS:
Quote:
Originally Posted by trth_skr
He actually has done an extensive amount of research on this topic. This should be clear when his book, “Galileo Was Wrong” comes out this year.

I hope you take the time to read it.

Hello Trth_skr,

I was under the impression that Robert Bennett, Ph.D., physics, former Bell Labs researcher is co-author of “Galileo Was Wrong”. Will Dr. Bennett still be co-authoring with Robert Sungenis? Mind sharing with me the name of the publishing company?

It would be great if you could ask physicist Dr. Bennett to join us. Please. (It would be interesting to see two physicists on opposite sides of the pole dialogue.) Bennett wrote the “The Dating Game” : results of radiometric dating methods must be interpreted according to philosophical principles and that data used to “prove” that the earth and the universe are billions of years old can be more reasonably interpreted within a young universe framework.

kolbecenter.org/presenta…nett/RDWeb8.htm

He also wrote “Paradigms Lost”: scientific paradigms used to interpret the findings of natural science have changed many times during the course of history while Divine Revelation remains the same. Thus, we do well to hold fast to the latter and to be detached from the former.

kolbecenter.org/catalog.htm

I’m trying to better understand the difference between Positive and Normative Science. Especially, Theoretical Physics since it pertains to Intelligent Design Theory, which is extremely fasinating to me because I’m in the midst of writing my own little theory about it ALL! I’m not a scientist, but I am a tinkerer of ideas. If Sungenis can do it why can’t I? Right?

Thanks.
Yes, I should mention that. Dr. Bennett is co-author of “Galileo Was Wrong”. I am not sure who is publishing it, but I imagin it is Queenship Publications, who publish most of Robert Sungenis’ books.

Good luck on your project.
 
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not to mention an “inflation period” and a mass of the universe known to 1 part in 10^55, 1: 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,0 00,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000).
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Alec:
What on earth are you talking about? We don’t know how big the universe is, so how can we know its mass to one part in 10^55? Its mass lies between 10^55 kg and infinity.

Is it possible that you are confusing the mass of the universe with the energy density of the very early universe? …What I think you are referring to is known as the flatness problem: it was resolved by Alan Guth’s hypothesis of an inflationary epoch, which eliminated the need for such precise fine tuning. We see strong evidence for inflation in the CMB and the clustering of matter in the universe.
Actually the 10^55 "uncertainty still remains.

Here
physics.ucdavis.edu/Cosmology/COS10/Notes/Notes.pdf

we find (replaced symbols with spelling):

"At the time when the universe was at the “Grand Unification” temperature (1027K, …) rho_universe = rho_c had to be true to *at least *55 decimal places! "

So if we know the size of the universe (now or at Grand Unification), and we know the density (at that time), we supposedly know the mass of the universe to 1 part in 10^55. I wonder how that played into the 4 articles on the CMB you linked to? We basically know one parameter with effectively zero error.

This is stated here, too:

"Physicists have tried for decades to formulate theories that could eliminate both the questionable assumptions and the problematic particles associated with the standard big bang model. Currently the only plausible candidate is a theory called inflationary cosmology, which is widely accepted by most cosmologists to be a necessary modification of the big bang model. This theory says that there was a period of very rapid expansion in the first fraction of a second after the big bang, or more precisely, after the density fell below the Planck level. A detailed explanation of why this happened or how it resolves all the problems cited above would be beyond the scope of this paper. I simply note that this rapid expansion period would have caused the universe to become almost perfectly homogeneous and almost exactly at the critical density regardless of how it started out. It would also get rid of all unwanted relic particles while still allowing for the creation of the ordinary particles that make up the universe today…

…The big bang model also requires the density of matter in the early universe to have been extremely close to the critical density. If it had been too high, the universe would have recollapsed before any structure had time to form, while if it had started out too low galaxies could not have formed. I noted in endnote I that over time the universe tends to move away from the critical density. It turns out that if the universe had initially been above or below the critical density by more than one part in 1055, life as we know it could not have arisen! "

Here is another view pf Guth’s hypothesis:

“One of the main problems with Guth’s inflationary universe theory is that it is extremely mass-sensitive. If the big bang occurred as currently believed, the total mass of the expanding universe should have a very precise relationship with the outward velocities and distances of all galaxies and other matter. This mass must not deviate from this amount by even one part in 10^55, an extremely small tolerance. Unfortunately the estimated mass of the visible universe is less than 1/10 of this critical value. Therefore the Big Bang concept and the inflationary universe model is in very serious difficulty. Only by believing that a vast amount of invisible, unmeasurable mass is hidden somewhere, can the big bang theory be saved.”

http://www.geocities.com/newastronomy/Chapter13.htm
 
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trth_skr:
Yes, I should mention that. Dr. Bennett is co-author of “Galileo Was Wrong”. I am not sure who is publishing it, but I imagin it is Queenship Publications, who publish most of Robert Sungenis’ books.

Good luck on your project.
Thank you. I’m a curious creature by nature trth_skr and am wondering if YOU are by chance Dr. Bennett? Are you?

The url in my messages 101 and 102 doesn’t seem to work any longer. Best to try this url:

www.
kolbecenter.org/presentations/Bennett/RDWeb8.htm

Here are some excerpts from his paper “Radio Dating --Special creation vs. specious creativity --2002” which I have difficulty understanding. It seems to go against positive science which the Catholic Church adhers to.

"The critical premise of the scientific modernist is the Uniformitarian or Cosmological principle, which says that all the laws and processes on earth, indeed throughout the universe, have NEVER CHANGED.

"This fundamental assumption conflicts immediately with the known global Scriptural singularities listed below, along with the branch of science likely impacted :

Creation: Science domain:

Post-Fall corruption: archaeology

Global deluge: sedimentology, stratigraphy

Division of languages/races at Babel: paleontology, genetics

Supercontinent split in Peleg’s time: geology

"We expect from the metaphysics of science that all evolutionary propaganda will hinge on a old earth/universe principle to explain current observations.

[snip]

"What is the track record of science modernists on the subject of time? Credibility should rest on the proven success of modern science in other temporal measurements. Do the underlying premises of universal uniformity and materialism of the scientific modernists affect their objectivity?

"Turn to a topic which should be easy to resolve, certainly easier than the alleged aeons of time since the Big Bang started – the age of humans today. The life expectancy of Americans is said to be ~ 75 years, world-wide 64 years. Measured from birth to death, this statistic is said to be increasing with the improvement in medical care in the USA, reversing for the first time the Biblical trend of decreasing lifetimes, a rosy triumph of the modern agenda and lifestyle!

[snip]

Biology - Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA)

"We start with a summary of the premises underlying bio-dating:

"Was thought to be inherited only from the mother. No mixing of male (paternal) and female mtDNA from generation to generation
ð all mtDNA changes were the result of non-functional neutral mutations over time

Assumed to occur at a constant rate, faster than nuclear DNA
ð access to a “molecular clock”

"mtDNA is not divided during cell division, but copied
So count the number of mutants between species to find out when they diverged the key assumption presumes divergence from hominids(Chimps), using the fossil record, to get the mutation rate. the first application dated “Mitochondrial Eve” to about 200,000 years ago, the mother of all modern humans (but not necessarily the Biblical Eve).

"then a study by (modernists) Parsons et al. (1997) using the DNA rate of change of modern humans found a rate more than 20 times faster than the fossil record !!

"“… our observation of the substitution rate is roughly 20-fold higher than would be predicted from phylogenetic analyses. Using our empirical rate to calibrate the mtDNA molecular clock would result in an age of only ~6,500 y.a., clearly incompatible with the known age of modern humans. … it remains implausible to explain the known geographic distribution of mtDNA sequence variation by human migration that occurred only in the last ~6,500 years. “ "

[snip]

And it goes on and on. I’m not qualified to really judge the accuracy of the paper. Much of it is way over my head! Reason tells me that it isn’t pro-evolution. Infact, I’m more confused then ever before after reading it. I’m sorry. Best for me to stick with the EVOLUTION I’ve learned to love and understand. Hope you don’t mind trth_skr.

Thanks again for wishing me the best on my project.
 
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ISABUS:
Thank you. I’m a curious creature by nature trth_skr and am wondering if YOU are by chance Dr. Bennett? Are you?..
I am not Dr. Bennett. But I will take the question as a compliment;).
 
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trth_skr:
The universe is rotating, and trying to maintain its center through gyroscopic stabilization. The earrth happens to be in the center and by this virtue is stabilized. In fact the monentum of the rotating universe is used to haelp stabilze the earth.
what say?!?! :eek:

to quote Pauli -“It’s not even wrong.”

I’ve never encountered a geocentrist in the wild
I thought that they were on a reserve with the flat-earhters. 😉
 
Mark truthseek << I am not Dr. Bennett. But I will take the question as a compliment >>

Yeah this truthseek guy is named Mark something. See this Jan 2005 near the end (Mark Wyatt, banned March 23, 2005, that’s him) and where HECD2 already dealt with the science. Ah ha the “jig is up.” 😛

Markjwyatt
Banned :o
Last Activity: March 23, 2005 02:40 PM

And yes I put flat-earthers, geocentrists, and young-earthers in the same boat (not Noah’s Ark). They are different branches in the “creation-science” or “Bible-science” tree.

Phil P :crying:
 
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trth_skr:
Try playing with a top…
I know I’m going to hate myself for doing this but…

While playing with a top is a fine example of the conservation of angular momentum
What, pray tell, does it have to say about the position of the earth?

And if everything revolves around the earth then what about…well I don’t know there are so many places to start…what about the retrograde motion of Mars?

Note: I guess to be technically correct since the universe is expanding any one place is as much the center as any other but that is probably not what the geocentrists have in mind.

Note to self: don’t rattle the troll’s cage
 
Steve Andersen:
I know I’m going to hate myself for doing this but…

While playing with a top is a fine example of the conservation of angular momentum
What, pray tell, does it have to say about the position of the earth?
Disturb the top. See how hard it works to maintain its position. If the earth is in the center of a gyroscopically rotating universe, and the universe stabilizes its center, then the earth is stabilized.
Steve Andersen:
And if everything revolves around the earth then what about…well I don’t know there are so many places to start…what about the retrograde motion of Mars?
The retrograde motion of Mars occurs in the Geoentric system, also. George Ellis ( a famous nonGeocentric, modern day type cosmologist) was quite serious when he said:

'People need to be aware that there is a range of models that could explain the observations,…For instance, I can construct you a spherically symmetrical universe with Earth at its center, and you cannot disprove it based on observations." Ellis has published a paper on this. “You can only exclude it on philosophical grounds. In my view there is absolutely nothing wrong in that. What I want to bring into the open is the fact that we are using philosophical criteria in choosing our models. A lot of cosmology tries to hide that.”.

W. Wayt Gibbs, “Profile: George F. R. Ellis,” Scientific American, October 1995, Vol. 273, No.4, p. 55.


www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com
 
OK, so we have our Sun located on one arm of a spiral galaxy. Our sun has a planetary system in which the earth is the third planet out. The next nearest star is some 4 light years away. Yet the universe is populated by millions of similar galaxies comprised of a wide variety of stars in varying stages of development, many probably with planetary systems.

This picture of the universe presented by modern cosmology is one of galaxies which are rather evenly distributed throughout space; while space is expanding in a manner analogous to the surface of an expanding balloon. Dots on the balloon represent galaxies, while the two dimensional surface of the balloon represents our normal 3-dimensional space. (The interior of the balloon may be envisioned as filling up with the passage of time, rather than air.)

Now, when I think of one galaxy (ours) out of those millions, and one star (ours) within that galaxy, and one planet (ours) within that solar system, and try to conceive of *everything else * in the entire expanding universe rotating around that one planet, the idea is simply ridiculous.
 
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trth_skr:
Disturb the top. See how hard it works to maintain its position. If the earth is in the center of a gyroscopically rotating universe, and the universe stabilizes its center, then the earth is stabilized.
Conservation of angular momentum

It wouldn’t work on the universe as a whole or any non rigid body
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trth_skr:
The retrograde motion of Mars occurs in the Geoentric system, also. ……
Yes, you could create such a model but why would you? It not only would be incredibly inconvenient but it would clearly violate the principal of parsimony.

Besides, Ellis’s statement is clearly false based on observation. Galileo did observe things moving around other things (rather than the earth) 500 years ago
 
Steve Andersen:
Conservation of angular momentum

It wouldn’t work on the universe as a whole or any non rigid body
According to Wheeler, Misner, and Throne (GRAVITATION) it is possible.
Steve Andersen:
Yes, you could create such a model but why would you? It not only would be incredibly inconvenient but it would clearly violate the principal of parsimony.

Besides, Ellis’s statement is clearly false based on observation. Galileo did observe things moving around other things (rather than the earth) 500 years ago
Galileo did observe things, but they are consistent in either a Geocentric or a heliocentric theory. Ellis is not wrong. One cannot tell from observations.

www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com
 
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trth_skr:
Galileo did observe things, but they are consistent in either a Geocentric or a heliocentric theory. Ellis is not wrong. One cannot tell from observations.
I’m strongly urging you to reconsider what you keep saying. Ellis was not referring to retrograde motion, nor stellar parallax, nor doppler shifts in spectral lines. It is an interesting academic exercise to show that there exist solutions to the field equations allowing for Mach’s interpretation (which, by the way, was ultimately disavowed by Einstein). Unless you mean to posit Plato’s epicycles along with periodic, peculiar motions of all local stars to exactly mimic the effect we would expect from revolving around the Sun as well as on our own axis, then one can certainly, as has been done, determine our state of motion with respect to all other heavenly bodies.
 
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wanerious:
I’m strongly urging you to reconsider what you keep saying. Ellis was not referring to retrograde motion, nor stellar parallax, nor doppler shifts in spectral lines. It is an interesting academic exercise to show that there exist solutions to the field equations allowing for Mach’s interpretation (which, by the way, was ultimately disavowed by Einstein). Unless you mean to posit Plato’s epicycles along with periodic, peculiar motions of all local stars to exactly mimic the effect we would expect from revolving around the Sun as well as on our own axis, then one can certainly, as has been done, determine our state of motion with respect to all other heavenly bodies.
Retrograde motion is an observation, and Ellis was referring to it as well.

The modern Geocentric system is generally premised on a modern Tychonian model- i.e., earth at the center, motionless (not rotating or translating), with Keplerian orbits for the planets. The sun travels around the earth daily, as well as in an annula cycle (attributed to a precession of the uhiverse- see this diagram: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=693469&postcount=67).

The planets (earth is not included) orbit the sun. Therefor the retrograde motion is an effect of observing Mars from a fixed earth, while Mars orbits the sun, which is travelling around the earth in its annual (and daily) cycle. Gerardus Buow describes the situation here:

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

The heliocentric retrograde is represented in the same place here:

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com
 
I was just thinking about orbits. That the time it takes for one complete orbit is based on the radius of the orbit.
Are Geocentrics saying that the sun, moon and stars are all at the same distance from the earth? If so and we see relative movement among them, how is it that they dont hit each other?
I mean, they are saying that they make an orbit every 24 hours arent they?

The moon clearly passes between the earth and the sun in an eclipse. If it was at a distance for a 24 hour orbit and so was the sun, how is that possible?

[edit] forgot to say… Isn’t the thing about periods of orbits pretty well proven, since we use that to put up sattelites that orbit the earth, and they behave the way we expect them to?
 
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