Geocentrism: Gary Hoge's Demonstration Disproven?

[Wildgraywolf]

scm:

That is not exactly a description of the Big Bang theory. In that theory, the universe is expanding as a hypersphere, all points are moving away from all other points, and the points are not so much moving as that there is new space being created between them. There is no geometric center, the analogy would be a balloon that is being inflated, there is no point on the surface that can be called the center.

Very interesting… Can geocentrism be a reality in an ever expanding universe?

What is the shape of the universe then? Not all balloons inflate into spheres. I’m sure the big bang wasn’t perfectly spherical.

In a geocentrism system what would the shape of the universe be?

Is the shape of the universe relevent to anything?

 

[scm]

Wildgraywolf:

Very interesting… Can geocentrism be a reality in an ever expanding universe?

What is the shape of the universe then? Not all balloons inflate into spheres. I’m sure the big bang wasn’t perfectly spherical.

In a geocentrism system what would the shape of the universe be?

Is the shape of the universe relevent to anything?

The first thing that comes to mind when trying to combine the concept of geocentrism and an expanding universe is that the rate of rotation of the universe would have to decrease as it expands in order to maintain its angular momentum. Like an ice skater who spreads their arms out in a spin.
Is this a problem? I don’t know. Is the universe expanding fast enough that we could detect the slowing of the spin? Note that the earths rotation IS slowing detectably, but that is explained by tidal forces.

 

[scm]

trth_skr:

scm:

The Fathers of the Church disagree with your view. They were Geoecntrists, and not out of some ignorance of “modern science”. The issue was philosophical then (i.e., early first centuries through Galileo), and still is.

Three Popes disagree with your view in official declarations. No Pope has yet to overturn the three Popes (and no, JPII did not; though it is apparent what his personal opinion may be).

Unfortunately for you, the Fathers interpretation of Scripture has more authority than your personal opinion, or even the opinion of any “modern” theologian.

So its your opinion vs. the Holy Spirit. I know whose view I will stick with.

www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com

Yes. Your view is faith based and can not be argued with.

When you try to support it with science, then it can be held up to scrutiny.

My view is all of the scenarios are flawed scientificly.

My opinion on Genesis is meaningless to you.

Forgive me for asserting “The Scriptures don’t say that”. I shoul d have qualified that with, “in my opinion.”

 

[Steve_Andersen]

Don’t sweat it SCM, trth_skr’s mind is made up

He has cornered himself with a “God of the Gaps” dilemma

And mere physics isn’t going to pursued him

 

[Wildgraywolf]

I don’t see any truth in geocentrism. For those who support it please bear in mind that I’m a tax accountant…

Okay…

1. The moon orbits Earth.
2. Mars’s moons orbit Mars.
3. Jupiter’s moons orbit Jupiter.
4. Saturn’s moons orbit Saturn.

These local observable examples share this: a lower mass body that orbits a larger mass body. For geocentrism to be true don’t you have to throw gravity out the window? Poor Newton…

On any given day can’t astronomers determine the “real time” position of a planet? Is the orbit calcualted by realitive positon to Earth, sun, or both?

 

[scm]

Wildgraywolf:

I don’t still don’t see how geocentrism is valid… Please bear in mind that I’m a tax accountant…

Okay…

1. The moon orbits Earth.
2. Mars’s moons orbit Mars.
3. Jupiter’s moons orbit Jupiter.
4. Saturn’s moons orbit Saturn.

These local observable examples share this: a lower mass body that orbits a larger mass body. For geocentrism to be true don’t you have to throw gravity out the window? Poor Newton…

On any given day can’t astronomers determine the “real time” position of a planet? Is the orbit calcualted by realitive positon to Earth, sun, or both?

I think this is a good point, but see below what the Geocentric response will be…

One interesting thing to note is that it is not strictly correct to say that a lower mass body orbits a higher mass body. In fact, if there are for example two bodies in the system, they BOTH orbit around the center of mass of the system. When one is very much smaller than the other and close enough to the larger one the center of mass of the system may be inside the larger mass body, so it would appear that the lower mass one orbits the higher mass one.

trth_skr already has said that the universe is not orbiting around the earth, (including the sun ). He/she had to do this because oribts are very well understood and it is simply not possible for all of the bodies of the universe to be in the 24 hour orbit.

trth_skr said that the universe rotates as a gyroscopic system and that the earth happens to be at the center of rotation.

My pet peeve is that he/she then says the universe precesses, possibly due to the fact that it is an unbalanced gyroscopic system, but then makes further claims that would indicate that he/she belives it is a balanced gyroscopic system after all, since he/she believes that the earth is at the center of mass of the universe and has implied that the earth is at the center of rotation of the universe.

trth_skr has not responded to that yet, maybe he/she is busy with other things at the moment.

 

[Wildgraywolf]

scm:

One interesting thing to note is that it is not strictly correct to say that a lower mass body orbits a higher mass body. In fact, if there are for example two bodies in the system, they BOTH orbit around the center of mass of the system. When one is very much smaller than the other and close enough to the larger one the center of mass of the system may be inside the larger mass body, so it would appear that the lower mass one orbits the higher mass one.

Is there one instance where a larger massive body orbits a lesser massive body?

scm:

trth_skr already has said that the universe is not orbiting around the earth, (including the sun ). He/she had to do this because oribts are very well understood and it is simply not possible for all of the bodies of the universe to be in the 24 hour orbit.

trth_skr said that the universe rotates as a gyroscopic system and that the earth happens to be at the center of rotation.

My pet peeve is that he/she then says the universe precesses, possibly due to the fact that it is an unbalanced gyroscopic system, but then makes further claims that would indicate that he/she belives it is a balanced gyroscopic system after all, since he/she believes that the earth is at the center of mass of the universe and has implied that the earth is at the center of rotation of the universe.

That all sounds like wishful thinking. How would geocentrists explain galatic rotation? I’m not sure what I’m trying to say here, but don’t most galaxies rotate on their own axis? Does Earth somehow anchor the Milkyway so that the Milkyway rotates on it’s own axis around Earth? Wouldn’t that anchor have to be gravity?

 

[buffalo]

Wildgraywolf:

Is there one instance where a larger massive body orbits a lesser massive body?

That all sounds like wishful thinking. How would geocentrists explain galatic rotation? I’m not sure what I’m trying to say here, but don’t most galaxies rotate on their own axis? Does Earth somehow anchor the Milkyway so that the Milkyway rotates on it’s own axis around Earth? Wouldn’t that anchor have to be gravity?

A black hole.

 

[Wildgraywolf]

buffalo:

A black hole.

Do you mean that metaphorically regarding my post, geocentrism in general, or that which lies at the center of galaxies?

 

[scm]

Here is something I would like the Geocentrists to consider.
I have already stated that in my opinion Genesis does not imply Geocentrism.

I would like to put forth my notion of where the exact center of the universe is:

God himself is the/is at the center of the universe.

 

[Wildgraywolf]

scm:

Here is something I would like the Geocentrists to consider.
I have already stated that in my opinion Genesis does not imply Geocentrism.

I would like to put forth my notion of where the exact center of the universe is:

God himself is the/is at the center of the universe.

I was thinking along those lines as well… Human arrogance says we and our world are the center of the universe, but I think the truth is as you describe and rightfully so.

 

[buffalo]

I was thinking along those lines as well… Human arrogance says we and our world are the center of the universe, but I think the truth is as you describe and rightfully so.
[/quote]

I don’t know. God created the universe so He probably is outside this frame of reference.

 

[Wildgraywolf]

buffalo:

I don’t know. God created the universe so He probably is outside this frame of reference.

Since God Created the universe it is doubtful that God is “outside this frame of reference”. And this “frame of reference” is also God’s Creation.

 

[scm]

At dinner tonight I mentioned to my fiance this discussion we are having over Geocentrism. She put things into perspective for me.
Basically her response was, when the time comes God will not look at or care about what specific detail of doctrine you adheared to, what particular church you attended, whether you were a Biblical expert or not. He will simply look into your heart and say “Did you know Jesus?”

This discussion (in my opinion) about whether the earth is at the center of the universe or not has now become as meaningful and important to me as how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

The focus is not us. Not how everything revolves around US.

The focus is and should be Jesus. He is my Lord and Saviour, He is the absolute center of my universe, and I should not distract myself from Him.

With that I will leave this discussion. I would like to say it was fun, but now I have to do some serious soul searching and prayer for the part I played in the discussion.

I love my fiance.

 

[buffalo]

scm:

At dinner tonight I mentioned to my fiance this discussion we are having over Geocentrism. She put things into perspective for me.
Basically her response was, when the time comes God will not look at or care about what specific detail of doctrine you adheared to, what particular church you attended, whether you were a Biblical expert or not. He will simply look into your heart and say “Did you know Jesus?”

This discussion (in my opinion) about whether the earth is at the center of the universe or not has now become as meaningful and important to me as how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

The focus is not us. Not how everything revolves around US.

The focus is and should be Jesus. He is my Lord and Saviour, He is the absolute center of my universe, and I should not distract myself from Him.

With that I will leave this discussion. I would like to say it was fun, but now I have to do some serious soul searching and prayer for the part I played in the discussion.

I love my fiance.

She is very wise and correct.

One of the reasons I participate in these discussions is that their are many here who can benefit. Secularism and materialism have been poundng them daily and for some have weakened their faith. Perhaps our discussions will strengthen their faith.

 

[Wildgraywolf]

buffalo:

One of the reasons I participate in these discussions is that their are many here who can benefit. Secularism and materialism have been poundng them daily and for some have weakened their faith. Perhaps our discussions will strengthen their faith.

I might add though, for me at least, that these dicussions broaden and deepen the body of faith.

 

[trth_skr]

buffalo:

Except Genesis is part of Revelation. And even though scripture is not a science book, since it is true, has some truth of science in it. The key is to find it.

True, and the Father´s are a good guide in this respect. They were Geocentrists, and interpreted especially Joshua´s Long Day as leading to Geocentrism. This was the basis for three Popes to make authoritative declarations regarding Geocentrism.

www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com

 

[trth_skr]

scm:

If the earth is at the center of mass of the universe, and the universe is rotating around the earth, you are saying the center of rotation is at the center of mass, yet you also say one posible explaination for the “anual precession” of the universe is that the universe is an unbalanced gyroscopic system. If the center of mass is at the center of rotation, the gyroscopic system is balanced. Maybe this just looks like a contradiction.

Look at these diagrams again. It is not that complicated. Think of the universe as a sphere. it rotates daily in the plane of the earth and universe´s equator . It precesses around the center of the sphere.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost…69&postcount=67

www.veritas-catholic.blogsot.com

 

[trth_skr]

Wildgraywolf:

Very interesting… Can geocentrism be a reality in an ever expanding universe?

What is the shape of the universe then? Not all balloons inflate into spheres. I’m sure the big bang wasn’t perfectly spherical.

In a geocentrism system what would the shape of the universe be?

Is the shape of the universe relevent to anything?

In geocentrism, the universe would likely be spherical or some more complex sphere like shape (in 3-D), depending on how the rotation actually works. See my message of June 6, 2005 07:04 AM.

www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com

 

[trth_skr]

scm:

Yes. Your view is faith based and can not be argued with.

When you try to support it with science, then it can be held up to scrutiny.

My view is all of the scenarios are flawed scientificly.

My opinion on Genesis is meaningless to you.

Forgive me for asserting “The Scriptures don’t say that”. I shoul d have qualified that with, “in my opinion.”

It´s ok to have your own opinion. But a general principle in Catholicism is that we should give assent to unanomous opinions of the Fathers.

No scientific theory is perfect. Geocentrism as a developed scientific theory is very rudimentary. To me, more interestiung is that no one has demonstrated that Geocentrism is not true, nor that heliocentrism or acentrism are true. In fact no one has demonstrated conclusively that the earth is spinning or translating.

Think about it.

www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com