George Weigel's A New Take On Modern Catholic History"

[Cat]

OK, I’ll agree with you that Catholics have always been about “doing.”

But why did it take 47 years for any of you to ask me if I wanted to become Catholic?

I think that’s what’s needed in the Catholic Church.

You call it “proselytzing” and turn up your nose at it. I wish to heaven that someone had “proselytzed me” decades earlier in my life so that I would have had those decades to receive Jesus Christ in the Eucharist!

What is your excuse for not sharing your Catholic faith with me all those years of my life? Why didn’t you ever tell me about your Church? (BTW–it isn’t really “your” Church, is it?) Why did you allow me to continue to languish in a Protestant shanty–and possibly some of you smugly called me “heretic” and considered me “going to hell”–while you lived a life of spiritual luxury in a castle? Why didn’t you tell me how I could live in the castle, too? Why didn’t you TELL ME that JESUS was there waiting for me, in “your” Church?

THAT’S what “Evangelical Catholic” means–not only to live a Christian life and do the works that prove your faith (James 2), but also going out into the world and preaching the Gospel, which means the FULL Gospel, which means leading people to Christ AND HIS CHURCH.

Yes, you can say that the Holy Spirit led me into His Church at the right time, and I agree with you and I trust that the Holy Spirit’s timing is right.

So is THAT an acceptable excuse for NEVER telling anyone about Catholicism? You think you don’t ever need to say anything to anyone about Catholicism because you know that the Holy Spirit will work it all out anyway for all those poor folks who weren’t born Catholic? You think it’s best to just stay quiet and not risk messing it up for the Holy Spirit? You think it’s OK to just keep on doing those good works?

Well, I say that lots of ATHEISTS do good works. Think about that.

And I say that allowing non-Catholics to remain ignorant of the glories of Catholicism and letting the Holy Spirit do all your work for you is…well, it’s not acceptable.

Do you realize the method that the Holy Spirit had to use to get me to look into the Catholic Church was to have me and my family kicked out of our Evangelical Protestant church and shunned by the congregation?

Do you know the pain that ousting caused? To this day, I have major trust issues, and I have a very very difficult time opening up to anyone on this earth. I told my life coach that I don’t have friends, other than my husband and daughters. I have many acquaintances, but no friends, mainly because I don’t trust anyone. I don’t expect this to change. I still have occasional nightmares about that ousting.

And to this day, eleven years later, my younger daughter still doesn’t attend any church because she was so damaged by the ousting that she doesn’t trust any church. I pray for the Mother of God to plead for her to her Son.

A week ago, before my dad’s visitation, our family stopped for lunch at a local restaurant. My two daughters were home (they live in different states) for their grandpa’s visitation and funeral. In that restaurant, we met up with one of the pastors who had been closely involved with our ousting. My husband and I greeted him with civility, but my daughters refused to even say hello to him. My older daughter said, “No way will I talk to him after what he did to us.”

It’s been eleven years, and that’s how badly hurt she was by this. She did convert to Catholicism, but she still can’t bring herself to speak to the pastor who caused so much pain.

That’s what it took. I wish it hadn’t happened this way. I wish some good and kind Catholic would have taken the time and trouble to befriend me and my husband and tell us about the wonderful Catholic Church, her history, and her practices, and invite us to join them at Mass. Again, if that’s proselytizing, I would gladly take it over ousting, shunning, nightmares, and trust issues anytime.

I hope this post has disturbed some of you.

 

[cothrige]

So is THAT an acceptable excuse for NEVER telling anyone about Catholicism? You think you don’t ever need to say anything to anyone about Catholicism because you know that the Holy Spirit will work it all out anyway for all those poor folks who weren’t born Catholic? You think it’s best to just stay quiet and not risk messing it up for the Holy Spirit? You think it’s OK to just keep on doing those good works?

If I may, I think you are setting up a false dichotomy here. You seem to be positing two possible “Catholic” ways of doing things. Either one never shares the faith and waits for the Spirit to do everything, or one merely does “good works.” I don’t accept that proposition. One can share the faith, do good works, and allow the Spirit to do His work. These are not either/or things, but both/ands, so to speak.

Do you realize the method that the Holy Spirit had to use to get me to look into the Catholic Church was to have me and my family kicked out of our Evangelical Protestant church and shunned by the congregation?

Let me share something with you. I have known many evangelicals and I have shared my faith and the truth of the gospel with them whenever the opportunity was presented for me to do so. However, in my experience, none of these people have been open to the faith, and short of something like what happened to you they are absolutely set in their current path. You mentioned, rather sharply, that Catholics sat back and did nothing while perhaps smugly calling you a heretic, but my experience has been that it is precisely the evangelicals who go around shouting heretic, or its equivalent. I have been condemned to hell more times than I can count, all for merely believing what Christ said about his Church, and most of the time it was an evangelical saying it. After all, these are the people shouting whore of Babylon and antichrist at the top of their lungs whenever they hear the word pope. Very tough crowd I assure you.

Sharing the faith is a wonderful thing, and we should all trust in the Spirit and try to do our best in our own ways to bring others to God. Some talk and preach, and others can witness through their actions, whereas others write or use music or art. In whatever way we should all work for our Lord to bring more to the bosom of Holy Mother Church. However, I think if we look at our lives and see such events and traumas as you have endured and choose to blame Catholics who didn’t find a way to bring us in to the Church we end up doing a massive disservice both to ourselves and the Church. We must listen in our hearts and respond to the call of the Spirit, and without that we are never going to hear or remember hearing those who sought to help us. I am certain that you were aware of the Church and had heard many voices in your life saying “come home.” More than likely you weren’t ready to listen until something happened which shattered your comfortable worldview. Unfortunate, but it is a reality of our lives that at times this is what it takes. Paul didn’t consider until the Lord knocked him to the ground. Why should we think we deserve better?

 

[october_baby]

Evangelization has always been alive and well in Catholicism in particular with the religious orders and communities and missionaries.

However in Catholicism “evangelization” has always been in fact about “doing” and much less about “saying” (i.e. proselytizing). “Evangelical Christians” often confuse evangelization with proselytization.

For Benedictines it is about living a life according to the Gospels and letting that life itself be the beacon of of evangelization; go to a monk for spiritual assistance or on a retreat at a monastery, and regardless of your beliefs you will neither be proselytized nor judged. For religious like Mother Teresa, evangelization meant living the Gospel among the poor, giving them aid and comfort, and expecting nothing in return (i.e. no expectation of conversion of those they aid). No quid pro quo. It’s a slower process, I think, than the more flamboyant proselytization often seen among Evangelical Christians.

The latter does seem to be somewhat effective; the former is rather more discreet. I can tell you though, anecdotally in my case, I was being actively courted by the proselytizing Protestants when I was an atheist (I had been brought up in the Church and had rejected Catholicism), but it was the more discreet call of Catholicism that won me back. Nobody tried to “convert” me to Catholicism. Its richness was all it took (and in particular Gregorian chant making me hunger for a liturgical Church, and one that transcended the personality of whatever particular pastor was flavour of the month; my Evangelical friends church hopped when a pastor was replaced with one they liked less). It was also a bunch of other little things. Like why, for instance, in the movies, when someone was praying in the face of disaster, it was often a Hail Mary. Or like actually reading the Bible and finding the inconsistencies in my Evangelical friend’s proof-texted notions of what they thought the Bible said (one of my Evangelical friends was converted from Catholicism… and was particularly rabid about my conversion to Catholicism and fond of quoting the Bible to show me why Catholicism was wrong and why he wondered if “Catholics could be saved”).

In fact nothing turns me off like overt proselytizing.

could not have said it better…

 

[october_baby]

If I may, I think you are setting up a false dichotomy here. You seem to be positing two possible “Catholic” ways of doing things. Either one never shares the faith and waits for the Spirit to do everything, or one merely does “good works.” I don’t accept that proposition. One can share the faith, do good works, and allow the Spirit to do His work. These are not either/or things, but both/ands, so to speak.

Let me share something with you. I have known many evangelicals and I have shared my faith and the truth of the gospel with them whenever the opportunity was presented for me to do so. However, in my experience, none of these people have been open to the faith, and short of something like what happened to you they are absolutely set in their current path. You mentioned, rather sharply, that Catholics sat back and did nothing while perhaps smugly calling you a heretic, but my experience has been that it is precisely the evangelicals who go around shouting heretic, or its equivalent. I have been condemned to hell more times than I can count, all for merely believing what Christ said about his Church, and most of the time it was an evangelical saying it. After all, these are the people shouting whore of Babylon and antichrist at the top of their lungs whenever they hear the word pope. Very tough crowd I assure you.

Sharing the faith is a wonderful thing, and we should all trust in the Spirit and try to do our best in our own ways to bring others to God. Some talk and preach, and others can witness through their actions, whereas others write or use music or art. In whatever way we should all work for our Lord to bring more to the bosom of Holy Mother Church. However, I think if we look at our lives and see such events and traumas as you have endured and choose to blame Catholics who didn’t find a way to bring us in to the Church we end up doing a massive disservice both to ourselves and the Church. We must listen in our hearts and respond to the call of the Spirit, and without that we are never going to hear or remember hearing those who sought to help us. I am certain that you were aware of the Church and had heard many voices in your life saying “come home.” More than likely you weren’t ready to listen until something happened which shattered your comfortable worldview. Unfortunate, but it is a reality of our lives that at times this is what it takes. Paul didn’t consider until the Lord knocked him to the ground. Why should we think we deserve better?

Good point and charitable.

 

[october_baby]

I thought the article was ridiculous.

Weigel spends a lot of time trotting out the usual canards about the alleged “bad old days” which is nothing other than a slander against our Fathers. Yet curiously he also points out how strong and healthy the Church was in those same “bad old days,” i.e., lots of vocations, conversions, unity within the Church.

His prescriptions/descriptions of “evangelical” Catholicism are in the main a description of what Catholicism was before the disaster of Vatican II and its aftermath.

His invocation of Leo XIII is truly bizarre and ahistorical. Leo was a devout opponent of liberalism and Americanism. Just read Libertas Praestantissimum (catholictradition.org/Encyclicals/libertas.htm)(one nugget: Liberals “follow in the footsteps of Satan”). To attempt to portray him as some type of precursor to the revolutionaries who have devastated the Church in the last 45 years is absolutely groundless. Moreover, this evolutionary notion (Weigel’s own terminology!) ignores that Leo was preceded by Bl. Pius IX, a devoted anti-Modernist and opponent of modern liberalism, and was followed by St. Pius X, author of the anti-modernist documents Pascendi and Lamentabili!

No, nice try, perhaps, but you can’t find the kind of neo-modernism espoused by Weigel and his associates in the pre-conciliar Church.

Much more could be said (like about why we need to further “prefix” the Faith, especially with a word, “Evangelical,” that is associated primarily with a specific variety of American Protestantism) but trying to keep it brief.

Nothing here I would disagree with.

 

[OraLabora]

OK, I’ll agree with you that Catholics have always been about “doing.”

But why did it take 47 years for any of you to ask me if I wanted to become Catholic?

I think that’s what’s needed in the Catholic Church.

You call it “proselytzing” and turn up your nose at it. I wish to heaven that someone had “proselytzed me” decades earlier in my life so that I would have had those decades to receive Jesus Christ in the Eucharist!

What is your excuse for not sharing your Catholic faith with me all those years of my life? Why didn’t you ever tell me about your Church?

I’m sorry that you had to suffer through shunning. It must have been traumatic to have been cut off from your community.

I have to ask though, about us not telling you about Catholicism, two questions.

1. Did you ask?
2. In all honesty would you have been prepared to listen prior to your shunning?

As was pointed out by cothridge, talking religion with Evangelicals is not always easy and my experience resembles his. At one point I just said “enough”, and just stopped discussing religion with non-Catholics.

You see it takes two to tango. If one partner is unwilling to listen, it makes it pretty hard. If one partner has clammed up because of bad experiences discussing with Evangelicals, he won’t want to tango either.

I can understand your frustration, but God works on His own timetable. Perhaps He used your suffering from your shunning, to bring you close to His bosom and hold you in His love. Our suffering is never in vain if we let His flow in.

 

[Cat]

If I may, I think you are setting up a false dichotomy here. You seem to be positing two possible “Catholic” ways of doing things. Either one never shares the faith and waits for the Spirit to do everything, or one merely does “good works.” I don’t accept that proposition. One can share the faith, do good works, and allow the Spirit to do His work. These are not either/or things, but both/ands, so to speak.

Let me share something with you. I have known many evangelicals and I have shared my faith and the truth of the gospel with them whenever the opportunity was presented for me to do so. However, in my experience, none of these people have been open to the faith, and short of something like what happened to you they are absolutely set in their current path. You mentioned, rather sharply, that Catholics sat back and did nothing while perhaps smugly calling you a heretic, but my experience has been that it is precisely the evangelicals who go around shouting heretic, or its equivalent. I have been condemned to hell more times than I can count, all for merely believing what Christ said about his Church, and most of the time it was an evangelical saying it. After all, these are the people shouting whore of Babylon and antichrist at the top of their lungs whenever they hear the word pope. Very tough crowd I assure you.

Sharing the faith is a wonderful thing, and we should all trust in the Spirit and try to do our best in our own ways to bring others to God. Some talk and preach, and others can witness through their actions, whereas others write or use music or art. In whatever way we should all work for our Lord to bring more to the bosom of Holy Mother Church. However, I think if we look at our lives and see such events and traumas as you have endured and choose to blame Catholics who didn’t find a way to bring us in to the Church we end up doing a massive disservice both to ourselves and the Church. We must listen in our hearts and respond to the call of the Spirit, and without that we are never going to hear or remember hearing those who sought to help us. I am certain that you were aware of the Church and had heard many voices in your life saying “come home.” More than likely you weren’t ready to listen until something happened which shattered your comfortable worldview. Unfortunate, but it is a reality of our lives that at times this is what it takes. Paul didn’t consider until the Lord knocked him to the ground. Why should we think we deserve better?

What I hear you saying is that you will avoid the mission field because it is “unpleasant.” That may not be what you mean to say, but that’s what I HEAR you saying.

Of course Catholics along the way impressed me with their goodness. I happened to be part of Evangelical churches that were NOT hostile to Catholics. The pro-life movement brought a lot of Evangelicals and Catholics together, working side by side. In other posts on CAF over the years, I have given credit to Catholics for paving the way.

Would I have listened? YES, if the presentation of Catholicism had been well-thought out, historical, apologetic, and factual. I never heard that. When I did get into conversations over the years with Catholics (and I wasn’t one of those Evangelicals who thought they were "non-Christians), what I heard was a garbled presentation of their “religion,” and it was obvious they knew nothing about the Bible, nothing about their Church, and it wasn’t really obvious whether they knew Who Jesus was. I remember asking one Catholic about Catholicism, and they told me, “Well, we go to Mass.” That’s all they knew.

I certainly had no intention of becoming Catholic after being ousted from our church. What made me sit up and listen was attending an apologetics class, which the priest of the parish recommended to us. The class was taught by a college professor and his wife (also a college professor). He was a former Baptist pastor (in fact, at one time, he had pastored the church I grew up in). He and his wife knew the facts, and they presented the history and apologetics of the Catholic Church in a compelling, organized, and persuasive manner.

This couple introduced us to books and CDs by Scott Hahn, Tim Staples, Michael Cumbie, Thomas Howard, David Currie, etc. Most of these people were ex-Protestants, and most were ex-Evangelicals.

THAT, IMO is what is needed in the Catholic Church. The good works need to be there, yes indeed! But what good are works if no one actually “seals the deal” by being capable and willing to speak to non-Catholics and challenge them with the facts about the Church? I know that not everyone has “speaking gifts.” But shouldn’t all Catholics be prepared to speak up and give an answer–an organized, factual answer–to those who are not Catholic? The professional apologists can’t do it all!

My husband and I practice what I’m preaching here. Within two years after our conversion, our daughter converted. Our second daughter and her husband want to convert, but keep stalling–we’re working on them! My father-in-law attends Catholic events and BIble studies with us and has expressed an interest in converting, but his wife (my dear MIL) is extremely reluctant. But she’s open. Other family members have discussed Catholicism with us, and I think that they are shocked to learn that the Catholic Church isn’t a cult after all!

 

[clem456]

I have a good friend who is in UCC. He is a liberal-minded Christian doctrinally. He lives a model Christian life of service. He also has a strong anti-Catholic bias. It was bred into him through no fault of his own.

I cannot preach and teach to this man. He doesn’t want to hear it, his ears are closed to the word “Catholic”. He has all the standard objections one after the other.

That being said, I am still called to evangelize. How do I do that? I have found the witness of my life, to be the most effective tool, even with all my warts. The witness of who I am in relation to Christ and the Church. I have to BE authentically Catholic, first, before I even open my mouth. That means accepting my friend for who he is, not treating him like is on the trap door to hell because he is not Catholic. If I can’t do this, I need to shut my mouth. This also means serving alongside him and others when charity projects come up. Also, being part of a bible study together and having differences of opinion that do not turn angry.

We need to be who we are called to be, and trust the results to God. The faith is not a results-oriented endeavor, the cross is proof of that. The odds of my friend every becoming Catholic are slim and none. But he did attend our Thursday Lenten series last night, and left with a good impression. Was it doctrine that turned him on? No, his first comment was “That priest was good. Some people just exude kindness”.

 

[Cat]

I have a good friend who is in UCC. He is a liberal-minded Christian doctrinally. He lives a model Christian life of service. He also has a strong anti-Catholic bias. It was bred into him through no fault of his own.

I cannot preach and teach to this man. He doesn’t want to hear it, his ears are closed to the word “Catholic”. He has all the standard objections one after the other.

That being said, I am still called to evangelize. How do I do that? I have found the witness of my life, to be the most effective tool, even with all my warts. The witness of who I am in relation to Christ and the Church. I have to BE authentically Catholic, first, before I even open my mouth. That means accepting my friend for who he is, not treating him like is on the trap door to hell because he is not Catholic. If I can’t do this, I need to shut my mouth. This also means serving alongside him and others when charity projects come up. Also, being part of a bible study together and having differences of opinion that do not turn angry.

We need to be who we are called to be, and trust the results to God. The faith is not a results-oriented endeavor, the cross is proof of that. The odds of my friend every becoming Catholic are slim and none. But he did attend our Thursday Lenten series last night, and left with a good impression. Was it doctrine that turned him on? No, his first comment was “That priest was good. Some people just exude kindness”.

Why did he attend the Lenten series? Did you invite him?

 

[clem456]

Why did he attend the Lenten series? Did you invite him?

Yes sort of. We were talkling about the first study on Friday morning. Three of us had gone and the enthusiasm was obvious. He asked us more about it.
To which he said his standard line in regards to things Catholic, something like “great! I’m glad you got a lot out of it”. To which I said “you’re welcome to attend with us”, which drew a few chuckles from the group. But we picked him up and he went.

I guess the point is, he was not told he needed to hear the Catholic perspective from a “real” bible scholar. He saw something in the three of us he wanted to be a part of.

 

[OraLabora]

What I hear you saying is that you will avoid the mission field because it is “unpleasant.” That may not be what you mean to say, but that’s what I HEAR you saying.

I can’t speak for him (or her) but I can say that for myself, I chose to be a “missionary” in the classical Benedictine manner, which is rather discreet (Benedictines are, after all, a contemplative order).

A favourite Bible verse on that topic:

Like good stewards of the manifold grace of God, serve one another with whatever gift each of you has received. Whoever speaks must do so as one speaking the very words of God; whoever serves must do so with the strength that God supplies, so that God may be glorified in all things through Jesus Christ. To him belong the glory and the power forever and ever. Amen.

(1 Peter 4:10-11)

We are not all called to witness or serve in the same manner. It’s one reason there’s such a rich variety of religious orders, societies, congregations, etc. in the Church.

 

[Diana_Catherine]

OK, I’ll agree with you that Catholics have always been about “doing.”

But why did it take 47 years for any of you to ask me if I wanted to become Catholic?

I think that’s what’s needed in the Catholic Church.

You call it “proselytzing” and turn up your nose at it. I wish to heaven that someone had “proselytzed me” decades earlier in my life so that I would have had those decades to receive Jesus Christ in the Eucharist!

What is your excuse for not sharing your Catholic faith with me all those years of my life? Why didn’t you ever tell me about your Church? (BTW–it isn’t really “your” Church, is it?) Why did you allow me to continue to languish in a Protestant shanty–and possibly some of you smugly called me “heretic” and considered me “going to hell”–while you lived a life of spiritual luxury in a castle? Why didn’t you tell me how I could live in the castle, too? Why didn’t you TELL ME that JESUS was there waiting for me, in “your” Church?

THAT’S what “Evangelical Catholic” means–not only to live a Christian life and do the works that prove your faith (James 2), but also going out into the world and preaching the Gospel, which means the FULL Gospel, which means leading people to Christ AND HIS CHURCH.

Yes, you can say that the Holy Spirit led me into His Church at the right time, and I agree with you and I trust that the Holy Spirit’s timing is right.

So is THAT an acceptable excuse for NEVER telling anyone about Catholicism? You think you don’t ever need to say anything to anyone about Catholicism because you know that the Holy Spirit will work it all out anyway for all those poor folks who weren’t born Catholic? You think it’s best to just stay quiet and not risk messing it up for the Holy Spirit? You think it’s OK to just keep on doing those good works?

Well, I say that lots of ATHEISTS do good works. Think about that.

And I say that allowing non-Catholics to remain ignorant of the glories of Catholicism and letting the Holy Spirit do all your work for you is…well, it’s not acceptable.

Do you realize the method that the Holy Spirit had to use to get me to look into the Catholic Church was to have me and my family kicked out of our Evangelical Protestant church and shunned by the congregation?

Do you know the pain that ousting caused? To this day, I have major trust issues, and I have a very very difficult time opening up to anyone on this earth. I told my life coach that I don’t have friends, other than my husband and daughters. I have many acquaintances, but no friends, mainly because I don’t trust anyone. I don’t expect this to change. I still have occasional nightmares about that ousting.

And to this day, eleven years later, my younger daughter still doesn’t attend any church because she was so damaged by the ousting that she doesn’t trust any church. I pray for the Mother of God to plead for her to her Son.

A week ago, before my dad’s visitation, our family stopped for lunch at a local restaurant. My two daughters were home (they live in different states) for their grandpa’s visitation and funeral. In that restaurant, we met up with one of the pastors who had been closely involved with our ousting. My husband and I greeted him with civility, but my daughters refused to even say hello to him. My older daughter said, “No way will I talk to him after what he did to us.”

It’s been eleven years, and that’s how badly hurt she was by this. She did convert to Catholicism, but she still can’t bring herself to speak to the pastor who caused so much pain.

That’s what it took. I wish it hadn’t happened this way. I wish some good and kind Catholic would have taken the time and trouble to befriend me and my husband and tell us about the wonderful Catholic Church, her history, and her practices, and invite us to join them at Mass. Again, if that’s proselytizing, I would gladly take it over ousting, shunning, nightmares, and trust issues anytime.

I hope this post has disturbed some of you.

I am very sorry for the pain you and your family experienced. Sometimes it is very hard to understand how and why things work. . We will never know why it took so long but I am sure that God was calling you home with every step you took. Perhaps the Holy Spirit needed to wait for you to be ready so you would respond with a yes.

And I know there are Catholics out there who do evangelize and profess their faith to others. I remember once and elderly couple sitting in a Bible study at a Catholic church and the husband lovingly said about his wife, that there wasn’t a day that doesn’t go by that his wife doesn’t tell someone about Jesus and the Catholic faith.

My father when alive was very good at letting people know about the faith. He never hesitated to try to lead people into the faith. (unfortunately I young did not listen)

I came home several years ago from evangelical churches after several bad experiences and I know I would have never left, no matter what anyone said if I liked it there.

Also, it sounds like you recently lost your father and I am very sorry. I know that is very hard. My prayers are with you and your family.

 

[Diana_Catherine]

Would I have listened? YES, if the presentation of Catholicism had been well-thought out, historical, apologetic, and factual. I never heard that. When I did get into conversations over the years with Catholics (and I wasn’t one of those Evangelicals who thought they were "non-Christians), what I heard was a garbled presentation of their “religion,” and it was obvious they knew nothing about the Bible, nothing about their Church, and it wasn’t really obvious whether they knew Who Jesus was. I remember asking one Catholic about Catholicism, and they told me, “Well, we go to Mass.” That’s all they knew.

I certainly had no intention of becoming Catholic after being ousted from our church. What made me sit up and listen was attending an apologetics class, which the priest of the parish recommended to us. The class was taught by a college professor and his wife (also a college professor). He was a former Baptist pastor (in fact, at one time, he had pastored the church I grew up in). He and his wife knew the facts, and they presented the history and apologetics of the Catholic Church in a compelling, organized, and persuasive manner.

This couple introduced us to books and CDs by Scott Hahn, Tim Staples, Michael Cumbie, Thomas Howard, David Currie, etc. Most of these people were ex-Protestants, and most were ex-Evangelicals.

THAT, IMO is what is needed in the Catholic Church. The good works need to be there, yes indeed! But what good are works if no one actually “seals the deal” by being capable and willing to speak to non-Catholics and challenge them with the facts about the Church? I know that not everyone has “speaking gifts.” But shouldn’t all Catholics be prepared to speak up and give an answer–an organized, factual answer–to those who are not Catholic? The professional apologists can’t do it all!

My husband and I practice what I’m preaching here. Within two years after our conversion, our daughter converted. Our second daughter and her husband want to convert, but keep stalling–we’re working on them! My father-in-law attends Catholic events and BIble studies with us and has expressed an interest in converting, but his wife (my dear MIL) is extremely reluctant. But she’s open. Other family members have discussed Catholicism with us, and I think that they are shocked to learn that the Catholic Church isn’t a cult after all!

I agree with you here. That if people don’t study their faith and learn what it is, they can’t give it because they don’t have it. There are many opportunities for people to learn their faith today with books and computers and apps and more but I think maybe they could also be just so busy with everything else. Which is shameful. And today if we watch and pay attention many people are getting the wrong ideas about our faith, especially since the HHS Mandate, it seems to have increased. I have said this on other threads that if you read the comments on most any news site, after an article on Catholicism you will find almost nothing but hate and confusion regarding the Catholic church. My parents from a different generation knew their faith and understood it, today there is a lot of confusion over the teachings of the Church.

What we can do is witness with out actions and friendship and prayers and conversation. It is really the Holy Spirit who leads one to Christ, so we need to step in when he says step in. We are his workers and I agree more Catholics need to be about witnessing their faith and living it out. The saints of old did.

 

[cothrige]

What I hear you saying is that you will avoid the mission field because it is “unpleasant.” That may not be what you mean to say, but that’s what I HEAR you saying.

Unfortunately you are using jargon from other churches to which I cannot relate. That limits my ability to respond to your comment as I may say something which is not germane to what you mean. If “mission field” is meant to convey what it seems to imply I would say you are reading out of my comments what you desired or expected to see rather than what I wrote. I never said anything about avoiding anything. I share my faith, as I said in my previous post, whenever I can, but success is not just about how well I do that. There has to be a fertile ground in which the truth can take root, and among evangelicals that is rarely the case. This is just reality. One gets used to the canned negative responses you get in a conversation with such people.

THAT, IMO is what is needed in the Catholic Church. The good works need to be there, yes indeed! But what good are works if no one actually “seals the deal” by being capable and willing to speak to non-Catholics and challenge them with the facts about the Church? I know that not everyone has “speaking gifts.” But shouldn’t all Catholics be prepared to speak up and give an answer–an organized, factual answer–to those who are not Catholic? The professional apologists can’t do it all!

What is this fascination you have with “good works?” You keep going on about this, but I have not heard anyone bring it up. I certainly have not. I have been discussing the act of sharing the faith, however that is done. And why do you keep painting Catholics with this broad brush? Is this a habit you have carried over from Evangelical Protestantism? I know they like to do that, calling us all idolators and Mary-worshippers and such. I have known many, many Catholics, and they are as well versed in their faith, over all, as are Protestants. While many cannot make a reasoned argument about the Catholic Church, neither can most Protestants about theirs. Hurling out a proof-text from the scriptures, ripped from context and without any knowledge of what it means, is not knowing how to evangelize. Calling Catholics cultists and so on and telling them to “come out of the whore of Babylon” is not effective nor knowledgeable, and yet that is what I get from 99.9% of Evangelicals I know. You have yourself listed numerous Catholics you see as great apologists, though you seem to think they are because they used to be Protestant (odd that really), and yet you keep on about how there are no Catholics evangelizing. There have been great Catholic apologists and evangelists throughout the ages, but you insist on giving the impression that we are all a bunch of bumbling doofs who simply cannot get the word out without some former Evangelicals there to tell us how to do it. I am sorry, but this doesn’t work for me. The Church has gone on for 2,000 years spreading the gospel very well, and it has been more effective in doing so historically than any little sect of peculiarly American Protestantism. Even those Evangelicals you are celebrating, such as Scott Hahn, were led to the truth by some Catholic somewhere sharing the faith with them.

 

[manualman]

…snip…
What if the Fathers of the Church had decided that Apostolic Christianity no longer “worked” and consciously set out to invent something new? What if Medieval Catholics took that attitude towards that Catholicism of the Fathers, or Counter-Reformation era Catholics to Medieval Catholicism? It would legitimately have been seen as a rupture, as a rejection of the past and the new creation of a literally artificial Catholicism.

Sometimes in the Traditionalists forum I get the feeling that people think that every aspect of catholicism was a constant for 1965 years until suddenly at Vatican II, it wasn’t anymore.

What you mockingly suggest is, in fact, what REALLY happened! In apostolic times, confession occurred in the presence of the entire congregation and later morphed into private, personal confession between penitent and priest. In apostolic times, mass took place in any room big enough that could be acquired for use and the idea of reserving the host in a tabernacle was almost unheard of (arguably due to the danger of it being desecrated by persecutors). Medieval catholics introduced the idea that church buildings should be the focus of communities (which is an idea obviously not dating to apostolic times) and as a result we have the monumentally beautiful works of art that are european cathedrals. It was a relatively late development that popes appoint bishops rather than them being chosen (at least partially) by acclamation of the faithful in the diocese.

As any cursory investigation into history shows, catholicism has ALWAYS been a dynamic faith in which the successors of the apostles preach the gospel in a manner that resonates to the people living in their particular era. The Deposit of Faith doesn’t change, but it’s implications for the constantly changing preconceptions and proclivities of human communities DOES change and has repeatedly over time. This is precisely why we have a living church with an apostolic magisterium instead of merely a timeless “Sola Scriptura” approach. God’s pretty smart guy, you know!

The precedent even appears in Scripture when St. Paul preached to the adherents who worshipped at the temple of the “Unknown God” when Paul proclaimed that he had MET this unknown God and that He has now made himself known! St. Paul saw an opportunity to speak to the people where they were in a way in which they could know and joyfully accept the gospel. This is nothing different than what Mr. Weigel speaks of in his article. Vatican II isn’t a change in the faith, it’s a change in how the people of the faith should interact with and witness to the larger world.

 

[Peter_Plato]

If I say something like what I have said so far here, I am told to allow things to happen in God’s time. If I say God will take care of it, I am told to get some fire in my soul. It’s rather like when you go to a psychiatrist: they will always find something wrong with you according to some arcane metric. If you aren’t depressed, you must! be hyperactive. And so on.

---

The crux of the issue has to do with the fact that two separate conditions must be addressed before it is possible to carry out any aspect of one’s mission or calling.

1. One’s own fitness, formation or readiness to do so.
2. The nature of the actual mission that one is personally called to.

Neither of these are accomplished by our own willful choices. The success of both are dependent, in large part, on God’s grace together with our cooperation. It is, very much, a harmonizing and tempering of “God will take care of it” with “igniting a fire in one’s soul” which results in sanctification and wisdom.

To assume that one’s current capacity is all that is required to carry out one’s personal calling in the Church is, I think, an error. When we are called - and we all are - priority one is to undergo the personal formation, superintended by God, to prepare us individually to undertake the task. This is evident in the fact that the Apostles spent three years in training under the watchful eye of the Master himself. An important aspect of “faith” is to be faithful to the demands of this training and not be “chomping at the bit” to do something, anything, ignoring the possibility of a lack of readiness. Only when are we ready to undertake the mission to which we are called should we actually attempt to do so.

That said, as a general principle, in reality, the above process, as it obtains in the life of any Catholic Christian, is more like a continual series of missions and formative experiences through which we become more and more ready and sanctified, in small ways, to take on increasingly more responsible missions or tasks, through which we in turn become more sanctified. Jesus spoke several parables crediting the servant who is faithful “in little things” who will be called to greater.

This is not a matter of “tell me what to do and I’ll do it,” it is more like “prepare me to do what I need to do and let me not become presumptuous about what I am capable of doing.” Proper formation is the priority because, in the end, it is who and what we are that matters most, not what we do. The actions we carry out are meaningless if they are not carried out by holy individuals. It is becoming holy that is, ultimately, our purpose. Holy people do holy things. A truthful person will tell the truth because it is in their nature to do so. A deceitful person may tell the truth at times, but could even do so in order to deceive.
A holy person will always do holy things, but an unholy person cannot, regardless of how holy those things “appear” to be on the outside.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

It is very true that our formation into holy men and women is the real goal. And for each person there is an individual way. Yes, good actions and sharing the faith are important. But if we don’t become holy either through that or alongside it, we have not accomplished what we are called it do. We are to “become perfect”, not just do good deeds or be friendly.

For some, the traditional evagelical role in the “mission field” is not how they will become perfect/holy. For others it is. However to get back to the original article, we could probably all use a dose of Robert Bellarmine about now.

 

[otjm]

OK, I’ll agree with you that Catholics have always been about “doing.”

But why did it take 47 years for any of you to ask me if I wanted to become Catholic?

I think that’s what’s needed in the Catholic Church.

You call it “proselytzing” and turn up your nose at it. I wish to heaven that someone had “proselytzed me” decades earlier in my life so that I would have had those decades to receive Jesus Christ in the Eucharist!

What is your excuse for not sharing your Catholic faith with me all those years of my life? Why didn’t you ever tell me about your Church? (BTW–it isn’t really “your” Church, is it?) Why did you allow me to continue to languish in a Protestant shanty–and possibly some of you smugly called me “heretic” and considered me “going to hell”–while you lived a life of spiritual luxury in a castle? Why didn’t you tell me how I could live in the castle, too? Why didn’t you TELL ME that JESUS was there waiting for me, in “your” Church?

THAT’S what “Evangelical Catholic” means–not only to live a Christian life and do the works that prove your faith (James 2), but also going out into the world and preaching the Gospel, which means the FULL Gospel, which means leading people to Christ AND HIS CHURCH.

Yes, you can say that the Holy Spirit led me into His Church at the right time, and I agree with you and I trust that the Holy Spirit’s timing is right.

So is THAT an acceptable excuse for NEVER telling anyone about Catholicism? You think you don’t ever need to say anything to anyone about Catholicism because you know that the Holy Spirit will work it all out anyway for all those poor folks who weren’t born Catholic? You think it’s best to just stay quiet and not risk messing it up for the Holy Spirit? You think it’s OK to just keep on doing those good works?

Well, I say that lots of ATHEISTS do good works. Think about that.

And I say that allowing non-Catholics to remain ignorant of the glories of Catholicism and letting the Holy Spirit do all your work for you is…well, it’s not acceptable.

Do you realize the method that the Holy Spirit had to use to get me to look into the Catholic Church was to have me and my family kicked out of our Evangelical Protestant church and shunned by the congregation?

Do you know the pain that ousting caused? To this day, I have major trust issues, and I have a very very difficult time opening up to anyone on this earth. I told my life coach that I don’t have friends, other than my husband and daughters. I have many acquaintances, but no friends, mainly because I don’t trust anyone. I don’t expect this to change. I still have occasional nightmares about that ousting.

And to this day, eleven years later, my younger daughter still doesn’t attend any church because she was so damaged by the ousting that she doesn’t trust any church. I pray for the Mother of God to plead for her to her Son.

A week ago, before my dad’s visitation, our family stopped for lunch at a local restaurant. My two daughters were home (they live in different states) for their grandpa’s visitation and funeral. In that restaurant, we met up with one of the pastors who had been closely involved with our ousting. My husband and I greeted him with civility, but my daughters refused to even say hello to him. My older daughter said, “No way will I talk to him after what he did to us.”

It’s been eleven years, and that’s how badly hurt she was by this. She did convert to Catholicism, but she still can’t bring herself to speak to the pastor who caused so much pain.

That’s what it took. I wish it hadn’t happened this way. I wish some good and kind Catholic would have taken the time and trouble to befriend me and my husband and tell us about the wonderful Catholic Church, her history, and her practices, and invite us to join them at Mass. Again, if that’s proselytizing, I would gladly take it over ousting, shunning, nightmares, and trust issues anytime.

I hope this post has disturbed some of you.

In the words of Carl Perkins: “Go Cat, Go!”

 

[otjm]

After reading this column, I began to wonder if anyone is paying even a lick of attention to our bishops. Well, maybe you have not heard from your particular bishop; but certainly I have heard from mine - Archbishop (and now retiring) Vlazny, and I have even heard about evangelization from our newly appointed archbishop.
If you are not familiar with it, google "new evangelization; the first up should be from the USCCB.

And while we are at it, while I have not agreed with every last statement George Weigle has made, it would appear that he does more research in an afternoon than most people in these forums do in a month.

Oh - and the bishops have taken their lead from Pope Benedict.

 

[Cat]

After reading this column, I began to wonder if anyone is paying even a lick of attention to our bishops. Well, maybe you have not heard from your particular bishop; but certainly I have heard from mine - Archbishop (and now retiring) Vlazny, and I have even heard about evangelization from our newly appointed archbishop.
If you are not familiar with it, google "new evangelization; the first up should be from the USCCB.

And while we are at it, while I have not agreed with every last statement George Weigle has made, it would appear that he does more research in an afternoon than most people in these forums do in a month.

Oh - and the bishops have taken their lead from Pope Benedict.

Thank you. I agree.

I would encourage everyone to think about Pope Benedicts XVI’s use of “twitter.” That, IMO, is just one example of the “new evangelization.” Creative, up-to-date, yet not compromising anything traditional or Catholic.