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otjm
Guest
There is no question that evangelization has been alive and well in the Church since the Apostles were asked by an angel “Why are you looking up…”
That it was not perceived to be a requirement for the average Joe and Jane in the pew can be summarized by an old saying, highly prevalent prior to V2: the duty of said Joe and Jane was summarized in three words: pray, pay, and obey.
We can all call up the names of saints of the Church throughout the ages who may have not been clergy or professed religious. But having been born more than a day or two - or for that matter, a year or two - before V2, I am familiar with what the attitudes were of the laity. Evangelization was what the clergy and the professed religious did. And while there were instances of laity who evangelized, they were such a minority as to be something occasionally marveled at, but certainly not emulated.
While it may only be popular myth that St Francis ever said “Preach the Gospel, and if necessary, use words”, that is an excellent place for all of us to start. We don’t have to be apologists; we don’t have to have the CCC memorized; we don’t have to stand on street corners on a soap box. But we do need to live our lives in such a way that any observer would see something different about us from the secular majority who surrounds us; and we should be able to speak the Good News without fear, shyness, or hesitancy.
And that is what Pope Benedict, and our bishops, are calling us to. We need to get beyond “pray, pay and obey”, to get beyond looking at our faith as simply a guideline of “what not to do”. Moral theology, and Christ’s commands are far more than simply avoiding sin.
That it was not perceived to be a requirement for the average Joe and Jane in the pew can be summarized by an old saying, highly prevalent prior to V2: the duty of said Joe and Jane was summarized in three words: pray, pay, and obey.
We can all call up the names of saints of the Church throughout the ages who may have not been clergy or professed religious. But having been born more than a day or two - or for that matter, a year or two - before V2, I am familiar with what the attitudes were of the laity. Evangelization was what the clergy and the professed religious did. And while there were instances of laity who evangelized, they were such a minority as to be something occasionally marveled at, but certainly not emulated.
While it may only be popular myth that St Francis ever said “Preach the Gospel, and if necessary, use words”, that is an excellent place for all of us to start. We don’t have to be apologists; we don’t have to have the CCC memorized; we don’t have to stand on street corners on a soap box. But we do need to live our lives in such a way that any observer would see something different about us from the secular majority who surrounds us; and we should be able to speak the Good News without fear, shyness, or hesitancy.
And that is what Pope Benedict, and our bishops, are calling us to. We need to get beyond “pray, pay and obey”, to get beyond looking at our faith as simply a guideline of “what not to do”. Moral theology, and Christ’s commands are far more than simply avoiding sin.
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Diana_Catherine
Guest
I understand where you are coming from about the differences in attitude between the time before Vatican II and after, I can’t help but wonder if pray, pay and obey is all that bad. Just think what a witness we would be if we were to obey and live out our faith in front of people. What greater witness is there than to show our love and devotion. What would happen if we spent more time in prayer for people and gave more of our incomes to the church, those that can.
I know that the time before Vatican II was different, societies thoughts and attitudes toward life and the issues facing society at that time were different but it just seems like we are in such a crisis today of so many people leaving the church and so many Catholics picking and choosing what they are going to obey, it is confusing society and those looking at us. Catholics on tv and the news saying they are Catholic but believing something other than what the church teaches. I guess I just feel we need more attitudes of pre-Vatican II, of people actually choosing to obey what the church teaches, living it out and witnessing with our lifestyle.
There are times when you can preach at someone all day long and not move them until they see your life. That is how it was with me. Someone talked to me about returning to the Catholic faith for 12 years and I didn’t budge. What moved me was the witness of their faith and life when they were facing life’s end and how they leaned on the Catholic faith.
Prior to Vatican II Catholics felt the teachings of the Church were very important to them. The Church it self and the parish people belonged to were very important and were the center of many activities, prayer nights and novenas and Holy Hours. Wow, I just think that is what we need, more obeying the church, praying and paying, not just our money but our time.
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manualman
Guest
Diana, Nothing in Vatican II asked people to STOP praying, paying and obeying. It called us to go beyond those prerequisites and be the love of Christ to our families, friends and the world.
You’re correct that the average nominal catholic today would be worlds better human beings if they at least did those three things. But we’d be better yet if we did those three AND learned the principles behind the rules, comprehended the doctrine that formed the liturgy and experienced Christ in a relationship, not just an ephemeral concept.
Instead, the average nominal catholic today has been told that God loves them just as they are, and since they don’t rob banks, beat their wives or judge anybody for anything, they are GOOD people. We probably agree that this isn’t really an improvement. But it doesn’t make the 50’s something to have as a goal. We must aim higher, not aim for mediocrity, even if mediocrity would be a big improvement!
You’re correct that the average nominal catholic today would be worlds better human beings if they at least did those three things. But we’d be better yet if we did those three AND learned the principles behind the rules, comprehended the doctrine that formed the liturgy and experienced Christ in a relationship, not just an ephemeral concept.
Instead, the average nominal catholic today has been told that God loves them just as they are, and since they don’t rob banks, beat their wives or judge anybody for anything, they are GOOD people. We probably agree that this isn’t really an improvement. But it doesn’t make the 50’s something to have as a goal. We must aim higher, not aim for mediocrity, even if mediocrity would be a big improvement!
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Diana_Catherine
Guest
I totally agree with you. Vatican II never asked people to stop praying, paying and obeying. IMHO though I think we just need to be better witnesses of those three. Sure I agree we need to know the what and why we are obeying. There is so much information out there today that there really isn’t a reason why we don’t understand the teachings of the church, yet so many people don’t today. I don’t feel that all Catholics are this way. Many, many Catholics are hard at work sharing their faith. There are many out there. Just imagine if people could express the reason they live as they do because of their love for Our Lord. My mother has great stories of the past that go way back that tell of people being brought into the faith by faithful Catholics.
Also, just a little side note: the time before Vatican II included more than just the 50’s
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otjm
Guest
It is not that it was bad; it is that it is incomplete. Read the Gospels, and you will find that is not what Christ calls us to. His words were not meant for just the monks, or the priests and bishops, or the professed religious; it was and is for all of us.
All the more reason for people to actively live out their faith, to share the Good News. Most of what you mention is due to several issues, among them the horrible loss of catechesis, and the rampant behavior of the liberal element of the Church, which has grow tremendously because of the leadership of theologians, clergy and professed religious who took Vatican 2 not as a renewal of the Church, but as a remaking of it. It will be some time before most of that is flushed out of the system.
What we need to do is realize that in 2000 years, the Church has obtained more wisdom than the 60 or 70 years of the (older) liberals.
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Diana_Catherine
Guest
I totally agree. I have read the gospels and you’re right. We are all called to be holy. I just know that it is not just a new thought since Vatican II but that faithful Catholics have throughout the history of the church tried to live holy lives as taught by the Catholic church. I totally agree it is not just for the priests, bishops, monks and sisters.
Totally agree. That is exactly what I am saying. We must live out our faith and by doing that we will be great witnesses.
It is very sad the loss of catechesis and the poor teaching that has happened in the last 40 years, which has caused so much of the disobedience in the church.
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