"German Bishop Bode, head of synodal path forum on women & deputy president of German bishops’ conference, says Christ “became a human being, not a ma

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You posted this in the Sacred Scripture category but I’m not seeing a Sacred Scripture question. What would you like to discuss?
 
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@IanM, Bishop Bode is restating something that was promulgated by the Council of Nicaea in the year 325 and is still true. In the Nicene Creed, we profess that Jesus Christ “became man.” The original Greek (ἐνανθρωπήσαντα ~ enanthropísanta) could just as well be translated “became human.”
 
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No. You are new here, so I’m going to give you some advice: Be charitable.

Which means what in English?
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I don’t claim to be an expert on German language and culture, but I suspect that Bishop Bode’s remark was not the simpleminded translation that Edward Pentin offered, but intended by the bishop in a more thoughtful, nuanced, and perhaps rhetorical and thought-provoking way. I tend to assume that bishops know and live the Catholic faith, and use words with a certain precision.
 
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Beryllos said:
could just as well be translated “became human.”
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Really? “Could just as well” ??? Where in the Sacred Tradition of the Church is it denied Christ was a man? Does not “Son” denote a male? There are all kinds of passages referring to the masculinity of Jesus Christ.

It takes mental gymnastics, and violence to the inspired word of God, 2000 years removed from Christ to deny he was “true God and true man.”
Are we to baptize “In the name of the Father, the human, and the Holy Spirit?”

Christ is married to the Church…which is why Christ is a “he” and the Church is referred to as the “bride.”

Only heretical doctrines deny Jesus was true God and true MAN!
 
Speaking of context, if I have time, and the thread is still open, I’ll look up Bishop Bode’s full remarks. I dislike these short quotations out of context which are so typical of bloggers and critics. It’s so easy to misunderstand four or five words, and, I might add, so easy to pick four or five words to mean whatever one wants.
 
No one is denying that Jesus was a man, least of all Bishop Bode. I think his words have been taken out of context in order to manufacture a controversy.

Look, I’m kind of busy for the next several hours, so I can’t research this right now, but I challenge all truthseekers to look up the full text of Bishop Bode’s remarks so we can try to figure out what he intended to say.
 
Which is why I did not call Bishop Bode a heretic.

I specifically highlighted your phrase “could just as well be translated.” This is where we get into trouble. Magisterial documents have specific meanings that are perennial. We cannot say that a specific magisterial document, with specific wording, and specific meaning “could just have well been translated” to mean something that was contrary to what was meant.

This may be much ado about nothing…but…I pray nobody gets any wrong ideas about the clear and constant teaching of the Church.
 
Beryllos said:
No one is denying that Jesus was a man, least of all Bishop Bode. I think his words have been taken out of context in order to manufacture a controversy.

Look, I’m kind of busy for the next several hours, so I can’t research this right now, but I challenge all truthseekers to look up the full text of Bishop Bode’s remarks so we can try to figure out what he intended to say.
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My apologies for using ChurchMilitant as a source


But I did check Bishop Strickland’s twitter feed and he did call out Bishop Bode in a tweet saying on Feb 6: “Bishop Bode…I respectfully call you as one bishop to another to return to the truth of the Deposit of Faith for your salvation and for the good of the Church. Your statement that Christ became a human being but not a man is ridiculous & heretical. I cannot stand by in silence!”

So it does seem that Bishop Bode is denying an infallible truth of the Catholic faith, according to Bishop Strickland.

Truth: Jesus Christ is true God and true man.
 
I would like to know what Bishop Strickland’s source was. His statement, posted on Twitter, does not suggest that he dug deeper than the Edward Pentin tweet shown in the OP. He seems to be building on the same misunderstanding put forth by Pentin, the ridiculous accusation, based on a poor translation, claiming that Bishop Bode denied that Jesus was a man.

Edward Pentin, Church Militant, and anyone else who bases their charge of heresy on 4 words, taken out of context, and poorly translated, may be guilty of rash judgment.
 
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Beryllos said:
I would like to know what Bishop Strickland’s source was. His statement, posted on Twitter, does not suggest that he dug deeper than the Edward Pentin tweet shown in the OP. He seems to be building on the same misunderstanding put forth by Pentin, the ridiculous accusation, based on a poor translation, claiming that Bishop Bode denied that Jesus was a man.

Edward Pentin, Church Militant, and anyone else who bases their charge of heresy on 4 words, taken out of context, and poorly translated, may be guilty of rash judgment.
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I found this on Lifesite, which provides a link to the original story found in a German publication


Here is a link to the German publication:
https://www.kirchenbote.de/keine-angst-vor-einer-spaltung

The english translation is not clear to me. I think you and I agree that care needs to be taken regarding charges of heresy. I hope we will see a response from Bishop Bode that clarifies his words. At a minimum, his imprecise wording is confusing and should be clarified.
 
KMC said:
I hope we will see a response from Bishop Bode that clarifies his words.
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His original words may have been clear enough in German. He contrasted two words, Mensch and Mann, which in English are often translated the same, man.

Mensch, by the way, is the form used in the Nicene Creed, in two places:

“For us men and for our salvation” of course is not restricted to male humans, but is open to all men and women, all humanity. In German, it is “Für uns Menschen und zu unserem Heil.”

The second instance, “and became man,” in German is rendered “und ist Mensch geworden.”

Significant to the controversy discussed in this thread, the Nicene Creed in English does not say that he “became a man.” In German, I gather that this alternative phrasing would be rendered with the other form, Mann, that is, “und ist Mann geworden.”

Now look at Bishop Bode’s words which have been called into question: “Mensch, nicht Mann geworden.” To a German audience, this would recall the words of the Nicene Creed, and make a subtle distinction between becoming “man” and becoming “a man.”

In my opinion, this distinction is perfectly reasonable in a synodal discussion about women. His point, I believe, was that Christ, though he is male, is first of all and more importantly human. The significance of the Incarnation with regard to our salvation does not consist in his becoming “a man,” but simply becoming “man.”
 
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Beryllos said:
In my opinion, this distinction is perfectly reasonable in a synodal discussion about women. His point, I believe, was that Christ, though he is male, is first of all and more importantly human. The significance of the Incarnation with regard to our salvation does not consist in his becoming “a man,” but simply becoming “man.”
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And yet, Christ became man by becoming “a man.” Any uncertainty regarding the reasons and implications of that fact is thoroughly addressed throughout the rest of scripture. The conclusions are cemented by the church “fathers,” and underscored by 2000 years of tradition, least of all which includes the understanding that the Church is His bride.
 
Beryllos said:
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KMC:
I hope we will see a response from Bishop Bode that clarifies his words.
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His original words may have been clear enough in German. He contrasted two words, Mensch and Mann, which in English are often translated the same, man.

Mensch, by the way, is the form used in the Nicene Creed, in two places:

“For us men and for our salvation” of course is not restricted to male humans, but is open to all men and women, all humanity. In German, it is “Für uns Menschen und zu unserem Heil.”

The second instance, “and became man,” in German is rendered “und ist Mensch geworden.”

Significant to the controversy discussed in this thread, the Nicene Creed in English does not say that he “became a man.” In German, I gather that this alternative phrasing would be rendered with the other form, Mann, that is, “und ist Mann geworden.”

Now look at Bishop Bode’s words which have been called into question: “Mensch, nicht Mann geworden.” To a German audience, this would recall the words of the Nicene Creed, and make a subtle distinction between becoming “man” and becoming “a man.”

In my opinion, this distinction is perfectly reasonable in a synodal discussion about women. His point, I believe, was that Christ, though he is male, is first of all and more importantly human. The significance of the Incarnation with regard to our salvation does not consist in his becoming “a man,” but simply becoming “man.”
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A couple of comments:
  1. Absolutely Bode needs to clarify his remarks. If another Bishop was confused enough to write about how it was not the truth, then it needs clarifying. Much like how the Church needs clarification from Pope Francis about whether or not divorced and remarried can receive communion, and how Fr. Martin really needs to clarify many of his remarks regarding homosexuals kissing in Church, we need clarification here. The lay faithful should not have to have to a degree in theology to determine what a bishop of the Church is saying, especially if easy misinterpretation could lead one to be believe a heretical statement was made.
  2. Jesus became man, AND He was in fact, a man. God revealed Himself in masculine terms, and the Word Incarnate became man and was a man. It is not up to anyone to redefine how God chose to define or make His Incarnated self.
Blessings,

KMC
 
What is the difference between being a human being and being either a man or a woman?
 
poche said:
What is the difference between being a human being and being either a man or a woman?
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its kind of like asking “Was Lassie a dog or a Collie?” Its correct to say Lassie was a dog, and was a Collie, and it is incorrect to say that Lassie was a dog, but not a Collie.

The Word assumed a human nature, and was specifically a man. Is there an issue?
 
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