German Bishops: Catholics Who Formally Leave Church Cannot Receive Sacraments

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Does that mean homeless can not recieve sacraments? What if somebody is poor and does not have the money to pay the tax?
 
Church tax?

Something seems terribly wrong here, especially with excommunication for refusing to pay the tax.

What ever happened to “free will offering?”

Is there something in Germany that we don’t know about when it comes to the government collecting taxes for the Church?

Jim
 
The reason this is an issue is the particular way in which churches are supported in Germany. As a German citizen, you have an official religious affiliation, and the part of tax income that is earmarked for the various religious communities is given to the church you are officially a part of. Some Germans are trying to avoid this by officially renouncing their Catholic status. This is where the problem lies. They are officially stating to the government that they are not Catholic in order to avoid the tax.
 
GelasianumVetus said:
The reason this is an issue is the particular way in which churches are supported in Germany. As a German citizen, you have an official religious affiliation, and the part of tax income that is earmarked for the various religious communities is given to the church you are officially a part of. Some Germans are trying to avoid this by officially renouncing their Catholic status. This is where the problem lies. They are officially stating to the government that they are not Catholic in order to avoid the tax.
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The problem lies in the government collecting a tax for the Church.

Let the Church receive it’s funding through the free-will offering of the parishioners.

Jim
 
_Abyssinia said:
Does that mean homeless can not recieve sacraments? What if somebody is poor and does not have the money to pay the tax?
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If you’re low income or homeless or unemployed the social system kicks in pays for that and also supports you financially.
 
GelasianumVetus said:
The reason this is an issue is the particular way in which churches are supported in Germany. As a German citizen, you have an official religious affiliation, and the part of tax income that is earmarked for the various religious communities is given to the church you are officially a part of. Some Germans are trying to avoid this by officially renouncing their Catholic status. This is where the problem lies. They are officially stating to the government that they are not Catholic in order to avoid the tax.
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My sister once said that we Germans have to pay taxes to the church because we were lazy donaters by nature, lol. Seriously tho, thing is that there’re indeed people that leave the church because of the tax. And even though, the church tax is 9% of your income and we’re told to give our thenth anyway.
 
_Abyssinia said:
Does that mean homeless can not recieve sacraments? What if somebody is poor and does not have the money to pay the tax?
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Only applicable to those who make enough taxable income to pay taxes.

Which they don’t, so homeless people are not affected by this.
 
I find the idea of a church tax kind of odd, but apparently that’s how it’s been done for all religions in Germany for a long time. Perhaps it should be changed (I tend to think it probably should be, but what do I know), but so long as there is a church tax, and so long as the only way to avoid it is to tell the state that you are not a member of the Church, then I think this response makes sense.

It does not make sense to publicly announce that you aren’t Catholic (what is, so far as I can tell, required to avoid the tax) and then get annoyed when the Church says that you can’t do Catholic things. And the fact that it’s just to avoid a tax and you don’t “really mean it”, whatever that means, doesn’t change anything - otherwise making the largely symbolic offerings to the Roman gods (since such offerings were not, at least from what I’ve been taught, really considered to have an awful lot of religious significance but to be more of a sign of loyalty) to avoid getting fed to lions would be justified. That is, you cannot claim not to be a member of the Church to anyone for any reason, whether or not the consequences of doing so would be ok in themselves.
 
JimR-OCDS said:
Nope.

Keep church and state separate.

The government will always have strings attached when giving the church their tax collected revenues.

Jim
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I disagree. 🤷

(No, I’m not the greatest American ideologically :D)
 
duplicate thread.

At least the subject line is more descriptive this time.

This has less to do with tax scofflaws and more to do with atheist ex-Catholics.

You will not be denied sacraments if you merely won’t or can’t pay the tax. This decree is essentially bringing back, in particular law only, a Formal Act of Defection from the Church.

Formal Acts of Defection were abolished from Canon Law in 2009 with the motu proprio Omnium in Mentem. In universal law, they no longer have any effect because they do not technically exist. In the 1983 Code of Canon Law, the only effect they had was on marriages. It was a one-liner, and Omnium in Mentem rewrote that Canon and got rid of the term completely.

This decree is for German dioceses only. It does not affect us in the USA, nor anyone in Japan or South America or Africa. Only Germany. It is particular law only.

For those who make a Formal Act of Defection from the Church, they are excluded from the sacraments, and from holding ecclesial office. This is clear. It is essentially an act of schism or apostasy. Those are well-defined, but frequently the commission of them is informal. People just stop going to Mass, and they stop believing in God. However, those people would still have to pay the tax in Germany. Now they have an “out”.

This is a concession to the “un-baptism” movement in Europe. Atheist ex-Catholics have been screaming for some time that they want the Church to destroy baptismal records, and “delete” atheists or Protestants from Church rolls. The Church contends that they cannot do this, because of the ontological character of baptism, and also because it would be bad business. Nobody is going to delete membership records. A notation is placed in the record for those who make a Formal Act of Defection. This notation may effect census records. Now in Germany it will enable priests to deny sacraments to those who make a Formal Act. They will also be released from paying the civil tax that goes to support the Church. It is a package deal.

This was approved by the Holy See; they know what they are doing and it is not simony. However, the press has put “spin” on this and convinced the public and many of us at Catholic Answers that the Church is back to her old ways of the pre-Counter Reformation. I am afraid that my lengthy explanation will not convince everyone, because they will still just read the article and believe what the media wants them to believe. I will pray for you all that the Holy Spirit grants you wisdom and right judgement. And I will pray for the Church as she withstands vicious attacks from atheists and the media, that she will triumph in the end as Good always reigns over Evil.
 
504Katrin said:
My sister once said that we Germans have to pay taxes to the church because we were lazy donaters by nature, lol. Seriously tho, thing is that there’re indeed people that leave the church because of the tax. And even though, the church tax is 9% of your income and we’re told to give our thenth anyway.
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Katrin,
Do you mean to give a tenth in addition to the government-collected tax?
Also, do Muslims have to pay this tax? Most of the explanations I have seen, such as at Wikipedia, talk only about Christians and Jews.
 
Elizium23 said:
duplicate thread.

At least the subject line is more descriptive this time.

This has less to do with tax scofflaws and more to do with atheist ex-Catholics.

You will not be denied sacraments if you merely won’t or can’t pay the tax. This decree is essentially bringing back, in particular law only, a Formal Act of Defection from the Church.

Formal Acts of Defection were abolished from Canon Law in 2009 with the motu proprio Omnium in Mentem. In universal law, they no longer have any effect because they do not technically exist. In the 1983 Code of Canon Law, the only effect they had was on marriages. It was a one-liner, and Omnium in Mentem rewrote that Canon and got rid of the term completely.

This decree is for German dioceses only. It does not affect us in the USA, nor anyone in Japan or South America or Africa. Only Germany. It is particular law only.

For those who make a Formal Act of Defection from the Church, they are excluded from the sacraments, and from holding ecclesial office. This is clear. It is essentially an act of schism or apostasy. Those are well-defined, but frequently the commission of them is informal. People just stop going to Mass, and they stop believing in God. However, those people would still have to pay the tax in Germany. Now they have an “out”.

This is a concession to the “un-baptism” movement in Europe. Atheist ex-Catholics have been screaming for some time that they want the Church to destroy baptismal records, and “delete” atheists or Protestants from Church rolls. The Church contends that they cannot do this, because of the ontological character of baptism, and also because it would be bad business. Nobody is going to delete membership records. A notation is placed in the record for those who make a Formal Act of Defection. This notation may effect census records. Now in Germany it will enable priests to deny sacraments to those who make a Formal Act. They will also be released from paying the civil tax that goes to support the Church. It is a package deal.

This was approved by the Holy See; they know what they are doing and it is not simony. However, the press has put “spin” on this and convinced the public and many of us at Catholic Answers that the Church is back to her old ways of the pre-Counter Reformation. I am afraid that my lengthy explanation will not convince everyone, because they will still just read the article and believe what the media wants them to believe. I will pray for you all that the Holy Spirit grants you wisdom and right judgement. And I will pray for the Church as she withstands vicious attacks from atheists and the media, that she will triumph in the end as Good always reigns over Evil.
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I’m still confused on this so let me see if I have this right.

A Catholic decides to leave the Church and become an atheist, but because of the former German Tax law, they still have to pay the Church tax and thus are still eligible to receive sacraments, even though they have technically left the Church. This new law allows the atheist to avoid the tax and the Church to finally refuse to give the sacraments to those people.

But pious Catholic chooses not to pay the tax but gives 10% of his income directly to the Church because he may be some Libertarian type and feels that it’s not the state’s right to take from him to give to the Church blah blah…he’s still eligible to receive the sacraments?

Sorry for the hypotheticals but these German tax laws are confusing :confused:
 
austenbosten said:
I’m still confused on this so let me see if I have this right.

A Catholic decides to leave the Church and become an atheist, but because of the former German Tax law, they still have to pay the Church tax and thus are still eligible to receive sacraments, even though they have technically left the Church. This new law allows the atheist to avoid the tax and the Church to finally refuse to give the sacraments to those people.

But pious Catholic chooses not to pay the tax but gives 10% of his income directly to the Church because he may be some Libertarian type and feels that it’s not the state’s right to take from him to give to the Church blah blah…he’s still eligible to receive the sacraments?
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Your second case is correct. That pious Catholic may be liable for civil penalties but wouldn’t incur a Church censure.

As for your first case… couple problems. The atheist technically cannot receive the sacraments as soon as he repudiates the faith: he has committed the sin of apostasy with the latae sententiae excommunication attached. Whether or not the Church notices this is another question. Ordinarily, he would just walk away, without giving formal notice to anyone. He stops going to Mass, and the parish priest thinks oh, he is inactive/lapsed/moved away. Now in the 1917 Code of Canon Law, this would be known as a de facto Act of Defection. Today, it has no official term and no support in law. Anyway, he is excommunicated, and nobody knows about it, possibly not even him. If he doesn’t know about the penalty of excommunication, it does not take effect. Let’s say that he did know. Let’s say that he had an informal conversation with his bishop where he explained that he repudiated the faith, and the bishop asked him pointed questions which were met with staunch atheism. Then the bishop would be duly informed that this atheist is excommunicated. If the atheist presented himself to receive the Eucharist from the bishop himself, he could be denied. The same conversation could happen with the atheist’s parish priest. The atheist would still be liable for the tax, because the Church has no formal evidence. The atheist would have to fill out the form, write the letter, and make his Formal Act of Defection before the competent authority, and then he would be released from the civil Church tax. His status regarding the sacraments would not change in any appreciable way because he already had a conversation with the bishop about it, but at this point, the bishop has formal evidence and has cause to circulate a memo with the atheist’s photo to all parishes, at which point the atheist can no longer enter any Catholic church in his diocese without being refused Holy Communion. This is hypothetical. I am not saying that the bishop has a procedure in place to circulate such memos. It is highly unlikely, given the need for confidentiality.

To make a long story short, the non-payment of taxes will not directly affect anyone’s ability to receive the sacraments. It depends entirely on their actual disposition and willingness to make a Formal Act of Defection.
 
For most people who’ve stopped practicing Catholicism in Germany, declaring that legally just changes their tax status and that’s it. It’s not like they showed up to receive the sacraments anyway. Many of them don’t, so they probably figure they might as well have a lower tax burden as not. It’s a very practical thing for them.

For a few people, maybe they still practice, but it has dawned on them that if they declare that they’ve left the Church to the government, they can still be Catholic but not pay the taxes as long as the government and the Church don’t talk to each other. This is probably the small sector of the population that this new policy is meant to address.

And yes, there’s no simony or anything of the sort to it. It’s merely a matter of honesty. If you’re still a member of the Church and requiring services, you shouldn’t be signing a letter saying you’re not, just so you can save some money on your tax bill. It’s dishonest to do so.

Mass attendance rates in Germany are very low, in the single digits in some places, so this policy probably doesn’t affect very many people, even though a lot of people are declaring themselves non-Catholic now.

BTW, there are several countries that collect a tax like this: Germany, Austria and Switzerland all do this.

IN addition, there are several countries that have provisions for leaving the Church legally that don’t collect taxes for the Church. IN these countries, they’re also seeing a surge of people leaving the Church, but it’s largely for political reasons. France is one of these countries.
 
Elizium23 said:
Your second case is correct. That pious Catholic may be liable for civil penalties but wouldn’t incur a Church censure.

As for your first case… couple problems. The atheist technically cannot receive the sacraments as soon as he repudiates the faith: he has committed the sin of apostasy with the latae sententiae excommunication attached. Whether or not the Church notices this is another question. Ordinarily, he would just walk away, without giving formal notice to anyone. He stops going to Mass, and the parish priest thinks oh, he is inactive/lapsed/moved away. Now in the 1917 Code of Canon Law, this would be known as a de facto Act of Defection. Today, it has no official term and no support in law. Anyway, he is excommunicated, and nobody knows about it, possibly not even him. If he doesn’t know about the penalty of excommunication, it does not take effect. Let’s say that he did know. Let’s say that he had an informal conversation with his bishop where he explained that he repudiated the faith, and the bishop asked him pointed questions which were met with staunch atheism. Then the bishop would be duly informed that this atheist is excommunicated. If the atheist presented himself to receive the Eucharist from the bishop himself, he could be denied. The same conversation could happen with the atheist’s parish priest. The atheist would still be liable for the tax, because the Church has no formal evidence. The atheist would have to fill out the form, write the letter, and make his Formal Act of Defection before the competent authority, and then he would be released from the civil Church tax. His status regarding the sacraments would not change in any appreciable way because he already had a conversation with the bishop about it, but at this point, the bishop has formal evidence and has cause to circulate a memo with the atheist’s photo to all parishes, at which point the atheist can no longer enter any Catholic church in his diocese without being refused Holy Communion. This is hypothetical. I am not saying that the bishop has a procedure in place to circulate such memos. It is highly unlikely, given the need for confidentiality.

To make a long story short, the non-payment of taxes will not directly affect anyone’s ability to receive the sacraments. It depends entirely on their actual disposition and willingness to make a Formal Act of Defection.
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Ah ok thanks for clearing it all up. Well I’m glad my skepticism of the media paid off once again, I swear you can’t trust anything printed today. :nope:
 
GraceSofia said:
Katrin,
Do you mean to give a tenth in addition to the government-collected tax?
Also, do Muslims have to pay this tax? Most of the explanations I have seen, such as at Wikipedia, talk only about Christians and Jews.
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No, I did not mean to say in addition to the government-collected tax. I was referring to the bible that says that we should give a tenth anyway, and since we pay 9% taxes, we’re close to that tenth. Of course, we give additional money at mass, and donations also.

I’m afraid I don’t know about Muslims, but I can ask someone tonight 🙂
 
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