German cardinal defends Synod document, says Church teaching can change [CC]

[Catholic_Press]

Speaking to reporters in Rome on October 16, Cardinal Reinhard Marx defended the interim report released by the Synod of Bishops and reiterated his early statement of support for a change …

More…

 

[Megan7]

Speaking to reporters in Rome on October 16, Cardinal Reinhard Marx defended the interim report released by the Synod of Bishops and reiterated his early statement of support for a change …

More…

Thanks.

 

[rfournier103]

uch:

 

[opus101]

The headline is misleading. If you read it carefully, that’s not what he meant. Read it.

He meant that the application of the teaching (pastorally) could change in the sense of “develop”.

I am not advocating what he said or agreeing, I’m just sick and tired of everyone going over the deep end for no good reason. Everyone needs to take some tylenol and go to bed.

Language differences can cause so much misunderstanding.

 

[glendab]

Here is how he worded his “doubt” in the NCR article about the same thing: "“The core of the Catholic church remains the Gospel, but have we discovered everything?” he asked. “This is what I doubt.”’

ncronline.org/news/vatican/cardinal-marx-doctrine-can-develop-change

I am very grateful I don’t have such a man as that to go to for spiritual direction regarding my marital issues. He’s got some serious issues.

Glenda

 

[opus101]

“Saying that the doctrine will never change is a restrictive view of things,” says Marx.

If you listen to the context, he doesn’t seem to mean “change” in the way that we define it.

 

[Sy_Noe]

“Saying that the doctrine will never change is a restrictive view of things,” says Marx.

Wow.
Can’t say I’ve ever heard a Cardinal say that before.

And then:

Marx said: “homosexuals are not condemned by the church for their sexual orientation.”
Making a difference between gay couples who have monogamous relationships for decades and gay persons who are promiscuous, Marx continued: “I cannot simply say that everything is black or everything is white.”
“Nobody is excluded [from the church],” he said. “Nobody is superfluous. Exclusion is not in the language of the church.”
“We cannot say since you are [this way] you have become a second-category Christian,” Marx said. “This is not possible.”
“We cannot divide Christians into first class or second class or third class,” he continued. All Christians, he said, are “parts of the body of Christ. We all participate.”

Bravo to him.

I second your bravo.

 

[Sy_Noe]

“Saying that the doctrine will never change is a restrictive view of things,” says Marx.

Wow.
Can’t say I’ve ever heard a Cardinal say that before.

And then:

Marx said: “homosexuals are not condemned by the church for their sexual orientation.”
Making a difference between gay couples who have monogamous relationships for decades and gay persons who are promiscuous, Marx continued: “I cannot simply say that everything is black or everything is white.”
“Nobody is excluded [from the church],” he said. “Nobody is superfluous. Exclusion is not in the language of the church.”
“We cannot say since you are [this way] you have become a second-category Christian,” Marx said. “This is not possible.”
“We cannot divide Christians into first class or second class or third class,” he continued. All Christians, he said, are “parts of the body of Christ. We all participate.”

Bravo to him.

.

I agree

 

[One_point]

Making a difference between gay couples who have monogamous relationships for decades and gay persons who are promiscuous, Marx continued: "I cannot simply say that everything is black or everything is white.
.

With respect, this German cardinal is misleading his flock. The difference between a monogamous gay couple and a promiscuous gay person is that monogamous one abuses the same person over and over again countlessly while promiscuous ones abuses more people but fewer times.

St. Paul had little problem stating things in black and white.

Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

In the 21st century we have so-called shephards attempting to tell people that their call to leave these lifestyles behind them and follow Christ is less stringent than 1st century Christians coming from a more corrupt world than present. It must be such views Cardinal Pell was talking…stalking horse.

 

[JimG]

Reading the article, it’s hard to tell just what he means.

He says, “We cannot change the Church, but we have not understood everything yet.”

I guess, sometimes it takes more than 2,000 years to understand everything. But aren’t we just supposed to be handing down what has been received?

 

[Eternal_One]

Doctrine cannot change. Sacred Tradition cannot change. If these individuals attempted to change the Doctrine and Traditions, they’d effectively be creating a new denomination of Protestantism ala King Henry and the true Catholic Church would just keep on the path it has always been on for 2,000 years. How ironic that what split King Henry from the Church was also the issue of Divorce and Remarriage.

 

[JimG]

One thing I have always liked about the Catholic Church is its long tradition of doctrinal clarity. Words matter. Maybe it’s just the structure of the synod, or perhaps the lack thereof, but just going by the reports and discussions, clarity is one thing that seems to be lacking.

 

[One_point]

Doctrine cannot change. Sacred Tradition cannot change. If these individuals attempted to change the Doctrine and Traditions, they’d effectively be creating a new denomination of Protestantism ala King Henry. How ironic that what split King Henry from the Church was also the issue of Divorce and Remarriage.

Amen!! And it not like this is something the church has not been teaching extensively. like cardinal burke said there is scripture and the church has a rich tradition. it eassy to tell difference between authentic development of doctrine and innovations when NO authority is relied on. they forced to rely on their own creative thoughts because nothing in the tradition supports them. all heresies start with a creative mind.

 

[RGCheek]

The headline is misleading. If you read it carefully, that’s not what he meant. Read it.

He meant that the application of the teaching (pastorally) could change in the sense of “develop”.

I am not advocating what he said or agreeing, I’m just sick and tired of everyone going over the deep end for no good reason. Everyone needs to take some tylenol and go to bed.

Language differences can cause so much misunderstanding.

The Western media is owned by people who see the Catholic church as an enemy and they twist everything they can to embarrass and confuse the church.

In case you are wondering, no, I am not talking about Jews, which seems bizarre to me.

I am talking about the 6 corporations that own about 90% of all our media in the USA. They see the church as the main source of welfare programs and the taxes that go to pay for them. By discrediting the church they hope to also discredit the concept of welfare programs, at least that is how it appears to me.

 

[RGCheek]

Apparently most of the churches bishops are aware of the agenda of some and are determined to oppose it.

catholicworldreport.com/Blog/3441/cardinal_pell_were_not_giving_in_to_the_secular_agenda_were_not_collapsing_in_a_heap.aspx

Cardinal Pell: “We’re not giving in to the secular agenda; we’re not collapsing in a heap.”

The former Archbishop of Sydney says Cardinal Kasper’s proposal is a “stalking horse” meant to open the door to “even more radical measures”

Cardinal George Pell of Australia, who is the current Prefect of the Secretariat for the Economy, was interviewed by Francis X. Rocca of Catholic News Service, and issued some strong remarks about the Synod and where it will—and will not—go:

Cardinal George Pell said working-group reports from the Synod of Bishops on the family finally give a true picture of the assembly’s views, counteracting what he characterized as a misleading midterm report.

“We wanted the Catholic people around the world to know actually what was going on in talking about marriage and the family and, by and large, I think people will be immensely reassured,” Cardinal Pell, prefect of the Secretariat for the Economy, told Catholic News Service Oct. 16, the day the reports were published.

“We’re not giving in to the secular agenda; we’re not collapsing in a heap. We’ve got no intention of following those radical elements in all the Christian churches, according to the Catholic churches in one or two countries, and going out of business,” he said. …

The midterm report was “tendentious, skewed; it didn’t represent accurately the feelings of the synod fathers,” said Cardinal Pell. “In the immediate reaction to it, when there was an hour, an hour-and-a-half of discussion, three-quarters of those who spoke had some problems with the document.”

“A major absence was Scriptural teaching,” he said. “A major absence was a treatment of the church tradition,” including teaching on the family by Pope Paul VI, St. John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI.

Cardinal Pell also states that just 3 of the 10 small groups were in support of Cardinal Walter Kasper’s proposal to allow for some divorced and remarried Catholics to receive Communion, calling that proposal a “stalking horse”. He indicated that Kasper’s proposal was just the “tip of the iceburg,” an attempt to open the door to even more radical measures: “They want wider changes, recognition of civil unions, recognition of homosexual unions. The church cannot go in that direction. It would be a capitulation from the beauties and strengths of the Catholic tradition, where people sacrificed themselves for hundreds, for thousands of years to do this.”

 

[rfournier103]

Doctrine cannot change. Sacred Tradition cannot change. If these individuals attempted to change the Doctrine and Traditions, they’d effectively be creating a new denomination of Protestantism ala King Henry and the true Catholic Church would just keep on the path it has always been on for 2,000 years. How ironic that what split King Henry from the Church was also the issue of Divorce and Remarriage.

One thing I have always liked about the Catholic Church is its long tradition of doctrinal clarity. Words matter. Maybe it’s just the structure of the synod, or perhaps the lack thereof, but just going by the reports and discussions, clarity is one thing that seems to be lacking.

Yes and yes.

Doctrine cannot change, will not change, and MUST not change. The assertion that “we have not understood everything yet” is most troubling. It looks like a backdoor way to change doctrine without LOOKING like it’s being changed. I dare say that I am afraid that there could be a schism over this. A big one.

I pray that His Holiness will stand up and make his voice heard for all the faithful to hear; and clarify for once and all what the Church’s position is. In other words - the same position it has ALWAYS been; regardless of fallout, backlash, or popularity of Holy Mother Church’s teachings.

Jesus was steadfast in His Holy Ministry; and never once changed course to suit ANYONE. He proclaimed the Will of the Father, and His disciples could take it or leave it. Those who were faithful held fast to the Christ; those who were not, drifted away… (please see the Gospel of John, Chapter Six for further details)

We must ALL follow Jesus’s example and forge ahead to defend TRUTH. Truth has always been truth. Right has always been right. And wrong has always been wrong. There is no - and can be no - subjectivity when it comes to faith and morals. Every priest, and certainly every bishop knows this.

May God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost give the Synod the wisdom, clarity, and strength to do what must be done - regardless of personal feelings or desires. God made man in His own image; it is not for man to make God in his…

 

[M-Dent]

One thing I have always liked about the Catholic Church is its long tradition of doctrinal clarity. Words matter. Maybe it’s just the structure of the synod, or perhaps the lack thereof, but just going by the reports and discussions, clarity is one thing that seems to be lacking.

I do agree when an authority speaks in a vague or unclear mode it can cause preventable confusion and turbulence.

For example,

“Exclusion is not the language of the Church,” the German cardinal said. You cannot tell Catholics living in irregular family situations, in other words situations that do not meet the ideals taught by the Catholic Church, “you are a second-rate Christian”. Although the Synod will not be adopting the term “gradualness” because it requires further theological study, the important thing is for people’s situations to be taken seriously. We need to recognize all that is evangelically good in certain situations, even when there is no sacramentality in the relationship.”

When it comes to homosexuality, “we cannot say to someone: you are homosexual, you cannot live according to the Gospel. It is unthinkable.” Everyone needs “spiritual accompaniment” and if, for example, “two people in a homosexual relationship have been faithful to one another for thirty years, I cannot call that nothing.” Although it is not “all ok” and although the Catholic Church sees sacramental marriage between a man and a woman as the ideal kind of union,

vaticaninsider.lastampa.it/en/the-vatican/detail/articolo/sinodo-famiglia-36995/

Of course homosexuals can live according to the Gospel! Homosexual couples just can’t have any pseudo-marriage regularized. As is the possibility with some cohabitating opposite sex couples.

It’s best not to offer even a glimpse of hope when it’s against reality and Truth. It causes undue pain in the long run.

 

[Tigg]

Doctrine cannot change. Sacred Tradition cannot change. If these individuals attempted to change the Doctrine and Traditions, they’d effectively be creating a new denomination of Protestantism ala King Henry and the true Catholic Church would just keep on the path it has always been on for 2,000 years. How ironic that what split King Henry from the Church was also the issue of Divorce and Remarriage.

But you see, the universal mantra of the progressives is** “the church will change her teaching.” ** No attempt is made to distinguish between this rather vague declaration and the *authentic *development of doctrine which states the growth of understanding and knowledge must go forward in the same meaning and in the same sense. So that what the Church has always taught will continue to be taught and believed.

 

[CrossofChrist]

If you listen to the context, he doesn’t seem to mean “change” in the way that we define it.

This. ^

He says right after that we can’t change the Church. So nothing new said here.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

I guess, sometimes it takes more than 2,000 years to understand everything. But aren’t we just supposed to be handing down what has been received?

Yes and no. We can’t be like the steward who buries his talent in the ground. The Church applies what has been handed down to new and challenging situations. Many things couldn’t have been imagined 2000 or 1000 or 500 or even 100 years ago and thus there is nothing we can directly point to. We also grow in our understanding of things. Suicide at one time was viewed as a selfish and freely chosen action, today we understand psychology and that most people who commit suicide suffer from some kind of mental illness. This of course does not negate the teaching that suicide is wrong, but how we approach it has changed dramatically from centuries ago.

Another example: the Petrine Privilege. It is not found in the early Church, but it is based on the theology of the Pauline Privilege which is in Scripture.

New situations demand that the Church more thoroughly examine the Deposit of Faith to better apply the old to the new.