German Cardinal Lehmann demands clear decision on female deacons

[Tigg]

What I am suggesting is that the Church needs to put this highly incendiary issue to bed once and for all.

Please, please get with it Holy See and finish your research and deliberation and communicate a crystal-clear, non-revocable decision one way or the other on this issue.

As we read statements coming from some of the higher levels of the hierarchy, it isn’t that Rome has not spoken, but rather that the message is not being heard by some of those promoting progressive, Modernist ideals, contrary to the documents of previous popes and centuries of teaching. They seem to go the way of the Nouvelle Théologie which many theologians have said deviates from Tradition.

 

[MrTheosis]

You need to read the whole thread. The Church has spoken.

The Church has never said definitively if women can or cannot be ordained to the diaconate.

Nor has it ever done a good job of explaining the different of an ordained deacon and the status of deaconesses of centuries past.

As we read statements coming from some of the higher levels of the hierarchy, it isn’t that Rome has not spoken, but rather that the message is not being heard by some of those promoting progressive, Modernist ideals, contrary to the documents of previous popes and centuries of teaching. They seem to go the way of the Nouvelle Théologie which many theologians have said deviates from Tradition.

The Church has not spoken out definitively (as it did in Ordinatio Sacerdotalis with regard to the ordained priesthood.) I suspect it is afraid to. But leaving matter like this to float in limbo does great damage. Issue the paperwork already!

 

[Lucky7]

So does the Church need to write a specific document on every issue that progressive Catholics want to change…I mean, aren’t “clear” on?

Church doctrine is clear. They just need to read it and accept it.

 

[MrTheosis]

As we read statements coming from some of the higher levels of the hierarchy, it isn’t that Rome has not spoken, but rather that the message is not being heard by some of those promoting -]progressive, Modernist ideals, contrary to the documents of previous popes and centuries of teaching./-] They seem to go the way of the -]Nouvelle Théologie/-] which many theologians have said deviates from -]Tradition/-].

The Church is failing to communicate in a clear manner. It wouldn’t take a great deal of effort for the pope to issue an apostolic letter that made it very clear in very precise and simple language that no woman can ever be ordained to the diaconate.

The Church has failed to do this. Instead it allows this matter to float where people then apply their own interpretations of existing church documents as they argue about it. This does damage.

I honestly don’t know if the Church doesn’t want to face the possibility that woman can be ordained to the diaconate or if it simply lacks the resolve to say “no” once and for all in extremely clear language?

 

[Lucky7]

The Church is failing to communicate in a clear manner. It wouldn’t take a great deal of effort for the pope to issue an apostolic letter that made it very clear in very precise and simple language that no woman can ever be ordained to the diaconate.

The Church has failed to do this. Instead it allows this matter to float where people then apply their own interpretations of existing church documents as they argue about it. This does damage.

I honestly don’t know if the Church doesn’t want to face the possibility that woman can be ordained to the diaconate or if it simply lacks the resolve to say “no” once and for all in extremely clear language?

What about this is NOT clear?

*GENERAL DECREE OF THE
CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH:
Automatic excommunication for “ordination” of women
Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith

General Decree

On the delict of attempted sacred ordination of a woman

The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, in virtue of the special faculty granted to it by the Supreme Authority of the Church (cf. Can. 30, Code of Canon Law), in order to safeguard the nature and validity of the sacrament of Holy Orders, decreed, in the Ordinary Session of December 19, 2007:

In accordance with what is disposed by Can. 1378 of the Code of Canon Law, he who shall have attempted to confer holy orders on a woman, as well as the woman who may have attempted to receive Holy Orders, incurs in a latae sententiae excommunication, reserved to the Apostolic See.

If he who shall have attempted to confer Holy Orders on a woman or if the woman who shall have attempted to received Holy Orders is a faithful bound to the Code of Canons of the Oriental Churches, he is to be punished with the major excommunication, whose remission remains reserved to the Apostolic See, in accordance with can. 1443 of the same Code (cf. can. 1423, Code of Canons of the Oriental Churches).

The present decree enters in force immediately after its publication in L’Osservatore Romano.

William Cardinal Levada
Prefect

Angelo Amato, s.d.b.
Titular Archbishop of Sila
Secretary *

Sacrament of Holy Orders includes both priest and deacon.

 

[MrTheosis]

So does the Church need to write a specific document on every issue that progressive Catholics want to change…I mean, aren’t “clear” on?

Church doctrine is clear. They just need to read it and accept it.

Sadly the Church “doctrine” on this matter is not clear. Not by a long shot and the resulting discussion continues to do damage.

This is also not “every issue.” This is a highly contentious and incendiary matter. It deserves clarification through an apostolic letter comprised with very clear language from the pope once and for all.

Pope JPII did this with respect the the ordained priesthood in Ordinatio Sacerdotalis. Even though there was far less question by far fewer people about the ordained priesthood versus the ordained diaconate he released Ordinatio Sacerdotalis and that was that.

I hope the next pope can summon the courage to put this matter to bed once and for all.

 

[MrTheosis]

What about this is NOT clear?

*GENERAL DECREE OF THE
CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH:
Automatic excommunication for “ordination” of women
Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith

General Decree

On the delict of attempted sacred ordination of a woman

The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, in virtue of the special faculty granted to it by the Supreme Authority of the Church (cf. Can. 30, Code of Canon Law), in order to safeguard the nature and validity of the sacrament of Holy Orders, decreed, in the Ordinary Session of December 19, 2007:

In accordance with what is disposed by Can. 1378 of the Code of Canon Law, he who shall have attempted to confer holy orders on a woman, as well as the woman who may have attempted to receive Holy Orders, incurs in a latae sententiae excommunication, reserved to the Apostolic See.

If he who shall have attempted to confer Holy Orders on a woman or if the woman who shall have attempted to received Holy Orders is a faithful bound to the Code of Canons of the Oriental Churches, he is to be punished with the major excommunication, whose remission remains reserved to the Apostolic See, in accordance with can. 1443 of the same Code (cf. can. 1423, Code of Canons of the Oriental Churches).

The present decree enters in force immediately after its publication in L’Osservatore Romano.

William Cardinal Levada
Prefect

Angelo Amato, s.d.b.
Titular Archbishop of Sila
Secretary *

Sacrament of Holy Orders includes both priest and deacon.

These women were “ordained” to the “priesthood.” I’m not interested in your interpretation at the end. I would prefer an apostolic letter from the pope that made this crystal clear to all. This matter deserves such documentation.

Allowing this matter to “float” is very wrong.

P.S. This letter from Levada was fairly recent. Where was your “proof” prior to its issuance?

 

[Lucky7]

These women were “ordained” to the “priesthood.” I’m not interested in your interpretation at the end. I would prefer an apostolic letter from the pope that made this crystal clear to all. This matter deserves such documentation.

Allowing this matter to “float” is very wrong.

P.S. This letter from Levada was fairly recent. Where was your “proof” prior to its issuance?

Not my interpretation. Per the Catechism:

1554The divinely instituted ecclesiastical ministry is exercised in different degrees by those who even from ancient times have been called bishops, priests, and deacons."32 Catholic doctrine, expressed in the liturgy, the Magisterium, and the constant practice of the Church, recognizes that there are two degrees of ministerial participation in the priesthood of Christ: the episcopacy and the presbyterate . The diaconate is intended to help and serve them. For this reason the term sacerdos in current usage denotes bishops and priests but not deacons. Yet **Catholic doctrine teaches that the degrees of priestly participation (episcopate and presbyterate) and the degree of service (diaconate) are all three conferred by a sacramental act called “ordination,” that is, by the sacrament of Holy Orders: **

 

[Lucky7]

Not my interpretation. Per the Catechism:

1554The divinely instituted ecclesiastical ministry is exercised in different degrees by those who even from ancient times have been called bishops, priests, and deacons."32 Catholic doctrine, expressed in the liturgy, the Magisterium, and the constant practice of the Church, recognizes that there are two degrees of ministerial participation in the priesthood of Christ: the episcopacy and the presbyterate . The diaconate is intended to help and serve them. For this reason the term sacerdos in current usage denotes bishops and priests but not deacons. Yet **Catholic doctrine teaches that the degrees of priestly participation (episcopate and presbyterate) and the degree of service (diaconate) are all three conferred by a sacramental act called “ordination,” that is, by the sacrament of Holy Orders: **

Couple that with:

1577 “Only a baptized man (vir) validly receives sacred ordination.” The Lord Jesus chose men (viri) to form the college of the twelve apostles, and the apostles did the same when they chose collaborators to succeed them in their ministry. The college of bishops, with whom the priests are united in the priesthood, makes the college of the twelve an ever-present and ever-active reality until Christ’s return. The Church recognizes herself to be bound by this choice made by the Lord himself. For this reason the ordination of women is not possible.

Holy Orders = Priesthood and diaconate= ordination= men

 

[Cojuanco]

He’s not talking of female deacons in the sense of Holy Orders. There have been deaconesses in the past, but they were not given the Sacrament of Holy Orders, but merely a blessing (meaning they would not be ordained) The Archbishop is asking if it is permitted to revive that practice.

Tis all what one gets when you couple mistranslation and a bunch of heretics fogging things up.

 

[MrTheosis]

He’s not talking of female deacons in the sense of Holy Orders. There have been deaconesses in the past, but they were not given the Sacrament of Holy Orders, but merely a blessing (meaning they would not be ordained) The Archbishop is asking if it is permitted to revive that practice.

Tis all what one gets when you couple mistranslation and a bunch of heretics fogging things up.

There has been so much talk about these deaconesses. Were they ordained or not ordained? If not ordained where they “blessed” or “instituted” or what exactly? Why did they receive this special status? Did it allow them to do things that others non-clerics could not do? What exactly where their duties? And most of all, will this status be resurrected?

This is is the subject of much debate – a great deal of it that is not very positive. It would certainly be wonderful to have a apostolic letter to pin down answers to these questions (and likely others) once and for all!

It’s sad this topic has not been answered once and for all. Here we have a Cardinal of the Church asking a question and CAF participants believing for some reason that he and others should accept their opinions, their interpretations. No wonder there is skepticism, even at the cardinal’s level.

I prefer it come from the Holy See once and for all. The sooner the better.

 

[Lucky7]

There has been so much talk about these deaconesses. Were they ordained or not ordained? If not ordained where they “blessed” or “instituted” or what exactly? Why did they receive this special status? Did it allow them to do things that others non-clerics could not do? What exactly where their duties? And most of all, will this status be resurrected?

This is is the subject of much debate – a great deal of it that is not very positive. It would certainly be wonderful to have a apostolic letter to pin down answers to these questions (and likely others) once and for all!

It’s sad this topic has not been answered once and for all. Here we have a Cardinal of the Church asking a question and CAF participants believing for some reason that he and others should accept their opinions, their interpretations. No wonder there is skepticism, even at the cardinal’s level.

I prefer it come from the Holy See once and for all. The sooner the better.

Actually most of the talk about the Cardinal in this thread was before the OP clarified that he wasn’t talking about ordained female deacons, but merely a blessing. The cardinal obviously also gets that the Chruch *has spoken *on ordained female deacons. All he is asking for is if it is possible to have a different kind of female deacon. No one here has an issue with that.

If i find anything sad, it’s that so many Catholics don’t know what the Church teaches (or do not care what the Church teaches). And that is why there is so much skepticism and calls for change.

 

[charlc]

Tigg:

Quote:

Originally Posted by mburn16

Then the Vatican will promptly respond that Deacons are covered under the same thing as Priests. Clearly, its not cut and dry obvious, even to those who aren’t out there rallying for women to be ordained.

Asking for a clear ruling should not be treated as an offense.

They’'ve already been there and done that! Are they hoping for a different answer to the same question???

In 1994 a number of negative statements came out regarding Ordinatio Sacerdotalis. The following letter was written by the CDF in response.

Quote:

CONCERNING THE TEACHING CONTAINED IN ORDINATIO SACERDOTALIS RESPONSUM AD DUBIUM

Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith

October 28, 1995

Dubium: Whether the teaching that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women, which is presented in the Apostolic Letter Ordinatio Sacerdotalis to be held definitively, is to be understood as belonging to the deposit of faith.

Responsum: In the affirmative.

This teaching requires definitive assent, since, founded on the written Word of God, and from the beginning constantly preserved and applied in the Tradition of the Church, it has been set forth infallibly by the ordinary and universal Magisterium (cf. Second Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church Lumen Gentium 25, 2). Thus, in the present circumstances, the Roman Pontiff, exercising his proper office of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32), has handed on this same teaching by a formal declaration, explicitly stating what is to be held always, everywhere, and by all, as belonging to the deposit of the faith.

The Sovereign Pontiff John Paul II, at the Audience granted to the undersigned Cardinal Prefect, approved this Reply, adopted in the ordinary session of this Congregation, and ordered it to be published.

Rome, from the offices of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, on the Feast of the Apostles SS. Simon and Jude, October 28, 1995.

Joseph Card. Ratzinger
Prefect

Tarcisio Bertone
Archbishop Emeritus of Vercelli

How many different ways can we say definitive and “infallible teaching?” Regarding deacons, it is the SAME sacrament, merely a different level of ordination. Is this what they are questioning?

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[charlc]

Tigg:

Quote:

Originally Posted by mburn16

Then the Vatican will promptly respond that Deacons are covered under the same thing as Priests. Clearly, its not cut and dry obvious, even to those who aren’t out there rallying for women to be ordained.

Asking for a clear ruling should not be treated as an offense.

They’'ve already been there and done that! Are they hoping for a different answer to the same question???

In 1994 a number of negative statements came out regarding Ordinatio Sacerdotalis. The following letter was written by the CDF in response.

Quote:

CONCERNING THE TEACHING CONTAINED IN ORDINATIO SACERDOTALIS RESPONSUM AD DUBIUM

Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith

October 28, 1995

Dubium: Whether the teaching that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women, which is presented in the Apostolic Letter Ordinatio Sacerdotalis to be held definitively, is to be understood as belonging to the deposit of faith.

Responsum: In the affirmative.

This teaching requires definitive assent, since, founded on the written Word of God, and from the beginning constantly preserved and applied in the Tradition of the Church, it has been set forth infallibly by the ordinary and universal Magisterium (cf. Second Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church Lumen Gentium 25, 2). Thus, in the present circumstances, the Roman Pontiff, exercising his proper office of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32), has handed on this same teaching by a formal declaration, explicitly stating what is to be held always, everywhere, and by all, as belonging to the deposit of the faith.

The Sovereign Pontiff John Paul II, at the Audience granted to the undersigned Cardinal Prefect, approved this Reply, adopted in the ordinary session of this Congregation, and ordered it to be published.

Rome, from the offices of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, on the Feast of the Apostles SS. Simon and Jude, October 28, 1995.

Joseph Card. Ratzinger
Prefect

Tarcisio Bertone
Archbishop Emeritus of Vercelli

How many different ways can we say definitive and “infallible teaching?” Regarding deacons, it is the SAME sacrament, merely a different level of ordination. Is this what they are questioning?

Thank you very much for this reference. It’s very unfortunate that the Church is being distracted at this point in time.

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[charlc]

Thank you very much for this reference. l am enlightened by it. It’s unfortunate that these demands persist. Certainly they have their target.

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[EmperorNapoleon]

No, deacons cannot be women. Here’s why. The deacon many times reads the Gospel, also assists the priest on the altar offering the Eucharist. This is definitely not a woman’s vocation because of this. The deacon can also bless things, a woman deacon would not be allowed to do this. The diaconate is a step to the priesthood.
There is plenty of room for women lectors and Eucharistic Ministers. This Cardinal must surely know this, and he’s entitled to his opinion, but that can never occur in the Catholic Church.

I’ve attended mass at St. Joseph Cathedral here in Columbus on several occasions and a woman has been a lector and a reader before. There are also altar girls. My impression is that any lay person, male or female, can do it. If the Diaconate is supposed to be an alternative for those who cannot or don’t want to be ordained then why not include women? Honestly, I think it would take a lot of wind out of the female priest movement by giving women an outlet instead of simply saying that they can’t be priests with no alternative except convents.

 

[MrTheosis]

I’ve attended mass at St. Joseph Cathedral here in Columbus on several occasions and a woman has been a lector and a reader before. There are also altar girls. My impression is that any lay person, male or female, can do it. If the Diaconate is supposed to be an alternative for those who cannot or don’t want to be ordained then why not include women? Honestly, I think it would take a lot of wind out of the female priest movement by giving women an outlet instead of simply saying that they can’t be priests with no alternative except convents.

Being a reader (women can be commissioned readers but not instituted lectors), an extraordinary minister of holy communion or an altar server is worlds away from being an ordained deacon. They really cannot be compared.

The Church does need to face this issue. If women cannot be (and were not) ordained as deacons then what exactly was the status of a deaconess in years past? We hear all sorts of opinions but I would like to officially know from the Church.

If the deaconess status of years past did not bring any special privilege or capacity (in comparison to those of laypeople today) then the Church should say so once and for all and it should also state once and for all that there will be no more deaconesses. Done.

On the other hand if the status of deaconess did impart special privileges/capacities then the Church should say so and it should also determine if the status will be resurrected. To continue to let this matter float is irresponsible.

It’s also wrong to make excuses for the Church not addressing this problem head-on. The “so the Church should address every little question that comes along” or “the Church cannot be distracted by such question” excuses ring very hollow.

 

[Digitonomy]

the Church… should also state once and for all that there will be no more deaconesses. Done.

If the Church saw need for deaconesses at one time, it may require them again one day. I think it would be irresponsible for the Church to declare it will never reinstitute this ministry.

 

[livingwordunity]

I’ve attended mass at St. Joseph Cathedral here in Columbus on several occasions and a woman has been a lector and a reader before. There are also altar girls. My impression is that any lay person, male or female, can do it. If the Diaconate is supposed to be an alternative for those who cannot or don’t want to be ordained then why not include women? Honestly, I think it would take a lot of wind out of the female priest movement by giving women an outlet instead of simply saying that they can’t be priests with no alternative except convents.

You say you are an Agnostic which means you are looking at this from the perspective of someone who rejects the Catholic faith. It would make no sense for the Catholic Church to take advice from an Agnostic on matters of the Catholic faith.

 

[Teelynn]

I guess that is his opinion

I know they are different. But if one allows female deacons, people will go and say: “They’ve been ordained deacon, so why can’t they be priests?” That’s exactly what happened in the Church of England.

Yep…the slippery slope syndrome.