German Catholic Bishops Publish Interview Promoting the Idea of Women Cardinals

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Some sources say he was not a priest. But the Catholic encyclopedia says:" M. Loiseleur, who has made a careful study of the problem, believes that Mazarin was never married; it is certain that he retained the title and insignia of a cardinal until his death; probably he was even a cardinal-priest, though he never visited Rome after his elevation to the purple and seems never to have received the hat. And in any case he held the title of Bishop of Metz from 1653 to 1658."
Can you give us a few examples of “quite a few lay cardinals in the past”?
I never said that there were quite a few lay cardinals. This is not a subject that I know much about although I had read that some scholars think that Mazarin was secretly married to the widow of Louis XIII which if true would indicate that he was not a priest.
 
I never said that there were quite a few lay cardinals. .
True, but another poster said:
Since the cardinalate is not itself an ordained office but an honorific title and there have been quite a few lay cardinals in the past, this is actually a theologically sound proposal.
I would be interested to know who those lay cardinals in the past were.
 
This thread isn’t about women becoming priests. It’s about women becoming cardinals. A cardinal does not have to be a priest.
The two things we should bear in mind is that there is no theological prohibition on a lay cardinal female, and there is no reason to take this as more than gossip, considering it this is not coming through official or reliable channels.
 
…that there is no theological prohibition on a lay cardinal female,…
This is true. However, the lack of a theological prohibition on something is not, in itself, a reason for it to be done. And so far no one has given any real reason for why it should be. I quote Chesterton for my stance on the subject:
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Chesterton:
In the matter of reforming things, as distinct from deforming them, there is one plain and simple principle; a principle which will probably be called a paradox. There exists in such a case a certain institution or law; let us say, for the sake of simplicity, a fence or gate erected across a road. The more modern type of reformer goes gaily up to it and says, “I don’t see the use of this; let us clear it away.” To which the more intelligent type of reformer will do well to answer: “If you don’t see the use of it, I certainly won’t let you clear it away. Go away and think. Then, when you can come back and tell me that you do see the use of it, I may allow you to destroy it.
chesterton.org/taking-a-fence-down/
 
Agreed, a lot of evil has been done in the name of equality
Which form of equality, that of the French Revolution (equal end) or the American(equal opportunity)? Just because people have twisted the idea of equality to do various things doesn’t mean it’s a lie. Equality is not the same as anarchy, indifferentism, state sanctioned theft of property, etc…Saying that equality itself is a lie leads one down paths that are dark to tread. Let us refrain from them!
 
Which form of equality, that of the French Revolution (equal end) or the American(equal opportunity)? Just because people have twisted the idea of equality to do various things doesn’t mean it’s a lie. Equality is not the same as anarchy, indifferentism, state sanctioned theft of property, etc…Saying that equality itself is a lie leads one down paths that are dark to tread. Let us refrain from them!
Equality is a complicated issue. People are equal in some respects, but not others.
 
Equality is a complicated issue. People are equal in some respects, but not others.
Yes. Equality is also a subjective moral system. It is not the basis for a sound morality.

When it is interpreted and dictated by secular ideology looking to enlist government policy and schemes at the expense of other value systems then it becomes tyranny.

I believe history has shown that clearly.
 
Yes. Equality is also a subjective moral system. It is not the basis for a sound morality.

When it is interpreted and dictated by secular ideology looking to enlist government policy and schemes at the expense of other value systems then it becomes tyranny.

I believe history has shown that clearly.
👍👍
 
According to several biographies of Louis XIV, his mother (after the death of Louis XIII) was secretly married to Cardinal Mazarin. So he could not have been clergy.
There is no bar to tonsured Minor clergy marrying. Only those in Holy Orders are impeded.

It was permitted up until the 1917 Code of Canon Law
Clerics in minor orders enjoy all ecclesiastical privileges. They may be nominated to all benefices not major, but must receive within a year the major orders necessary for certain benefices. On the other hand, they are not bound to celibacy, and may lawfully marry. Marriage, however, causes them at once to forfeit every benefice. Formerly it did not exclude them from the ranks of the clergy, and they retained all clerical privileges, provided they contracted only one marriage and that with a virgin, and wore clerical costume and the tonsure (c.unic., “de cler. conjug.” in VI); they might even be appointed to the service of a church by the bishop (Conc. Trid., Sess. XXIII, c. vi). This earlier discipline, however, is no longer in accordance with modern custom and law. A minor cleric who marries is regarded as having forfeited his clerical privileges
newadvent.org/cathen/10332b.htm
 
There is no bar to tonsured Minor clergy marrying. Only those in Holy Orders are impeded.

It was permitted up until the 1917 Code of Canon Law

newadvent.org/cathen/10332b.htm
But some scholars have also claimed that Mazarin was Bishop of Metz for a short time. Can someone who is minor clergy be a bishop or do all bishops have to be in Holy orders?
 
I think its theologically possible for lay people, including women, to be advisors to the Pope, hold bureaucratic positions in the Curia, and even be electors of the Pope. However, I’m not so sure it is possible to make them Cardinals, at least how the office has been traditionally defined. Cardinals are by their nature clergy (in the narrow sense of the word). Even “lay cardinals” in the past were not actually laymen, strictly speaking. They always received the tonsure and were in the minor orders.

The cardinalate is not just the electoral college of the papacy or advisors to the Pope or even just an honorary title. The title of Cardinal grew out of their clerical status. It was originally a title given to all clergy permanently attached to a church/diocese, or “incardinated” as we say today. Then it began to be reserved to those in prominent Sees, then to the chief clergy there, and finally to those of the Roman See only–kind of like how the title “Pope” became more specific over time. Just as when various bishops had the title of Pope, the Bishop of Rome was still the head, the status of the Roman clergy was always special. As the clergy of the chief particular Church, they were given special honor–which is why even in the very nascent Church during an interregnum, difficult questions were submitted still to the Roman priests (since the Roman Church was the head of all the other Churches).

To this day Cardinals are clergy of Rome. When clergy outside Rome are made Cardinals, those clergy are given parishes in Rome. For example, Cardinal Dolan of New York presides over Our Lady of Guadalupe at Monte Mario in Rome or Cardinal DiNardo of Houston, Texas presides over St. Eusebius Church in Rome. Yes, the College of Cardinals as an electorate is only 1000 years old, but their office as Roman clergy goes back to the beginning.

Seeing the cardinalate as merely bureaucracy or even the electors of the Pope, misses the point. Lay people in the Roman bureaucracy (always subject to the bishop, in this case, the Pope), is fine. Lay people electors of the Pope is also theological fine–the election of a Pope can happen however the previous supreme authority legislates (it is very common for a sitting Pope to slightly modify the election law). In the past, lay emperors were given a vote or veto power or even the only say; theoretically other lay people could be given a vote, or the sitting Pope could choose his successor, etc.

But bestowing the cardinalate on such lay bureaucrats or electors would deviate from what a cardinal truly is, which is clergy. Lay emperors and whatnot who voted in papal elections, were not made Cardinals, for example.

Sure, the word “clergy” can be used in a very broad sense to include abbesses and nuns, and really anyone involved in any service of the Church (even lay folks who begged on behalf of convents, etc.) and abbesses do have a kind of jurisdiction since they have persons subject to them. But the minor orders were different. When Paul VI abolished them, he maintained instituted Acolytes and Lectors, but explicitly reserved them only to men. Paul VI (and later John Paul II) seemed open to, and pretty much did, change everything that could possibly be changed, and yet the instituted ministries were still reserved for men alone, even when temporarily deputized (at least de jure) lay readers, altar servers, EMHCs could all be women. The reasoning I can find for this is that the minor orders while merely sacramental, were derived from and a special participation in the sacrament of holy orders–and this was the reasoning behind doing the same for the instituted ministries, despite the fact that they are much less of a participation in holy orders than the minor orders were (I think it’s probably not definiively settled whether or not they are far enough removed to be open to women). I know the question of the possibility of admitting women to the instituted ministry of lector was suggested at a previous synod of bishops and the Pope did not do so in the resulting Apostolic Exhortation (interestingly enough, some Eastern Orthodox Churches have begun tonsuring women as lectors from what I’ve read).

So my argument would be that the office we call “Cardinal” is so closely tied to the sacrament of Holy Orders that women could not be admitted to them. I guess you could let people occupying a different office, wear a red hat, and be called a “Cardinal” (it’s just a word after all), but I don’t think a woman or layman could hold the office we have denoted by the word “Cardinal” for over 1000 years.
 
But some scholars have also claimed that Mazarin was Bishop of Metz for a short time. Can someone who is minor clergy be a bishop or do all bishops have to be in Holy orders?
Bishops are consecrated not ordained.
 
The German bishops are not the first to run this issue up the flag pole. It was being discussed some years ago.

Theologically it is not an impossibility.

And practically, Pope Francis has already rejected it, stating that we do not need further clericalization. So the likelihood of it happening on this watch is nil and none.

Occasionally, we have a slow news day… this is one of them.
 
It is called the 1968 Rite of Ordination of a Bishop. Both ordination and consecration are used in reference to the rite.
it is only fairly recently that the term ordination started being used; even as late as Vatican II consecration was still the term used.
 
A woman as cardinal? I guess the next step would be a woman as pope?
From my understanding, the papacy is an office, so technically a woman could hold it, but the Pope is also the Bishop of Rome, and a woman cannot become a bishop, so women could never become Pope
 
How come when a story is passed along orally over the centuries that has scant factual support but agrees with church teaching (like many anecdotes in the Christian canon, or the deaths of the apostles, for example)…it can end up being called “tradition” and taken seriously.
But other stories, like that of Joan, are passed along the same way and are still going strong today…and people dismiss it as a myth because it does not fit with church teaching?
That is a complex question. First, it is good to remember that one is not obligated to believe or “take seriously” any pious tradition. Second, it is an oversimplification to compare “scant factual support.” Some traditions are very well supported. Some are not. Finally, one need consider the sources of these legends. A simple application of Occam’s razor can see where a Pope John, in a time of illiteracy and no media, might be misinterpreted, and this misinterpretation used by the likes of John Hus, and latter the reformers.

Which is more likely, that the male priesthood at the time choose a female pope, or that this was a propaganda piece?
 
From my understanding, the papacy is an office, so technically a woman could hold it, but the Pope is also the Bishop of Rome, and a woman cannot become a bishop, so women could never become Pope
Actually, a hypothetically a woman could become a bishop, but to be Pope requires one to be a priest (becoming a priest can occur after election, but they must be a priest before becoming Pope).
How come when a story is passed along orally over the centuries that has scant factual support but agrees with church teaching (like many anecdotes in the Christian canon, or the deaths of the apostles, for example)…it can end up being called “tradition” and taken seriously.
But other stories, like that of Joan, are passed along the same way and are still going strong today…and people dismiss it as a myth because it does not fit with church teaching?

(fyi there’s one movie about her released around 2009 that’s really terrific)

You don’t think the church hasn’t “progressed” over time to match the ideas of the time?
Then I suppose you support priests being able to marry again?
Or the return of indulgences?
In the middle ages, people took the Eucharist rarely until the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215, when the Church formalized the requirement to partake and receive communion once a year at minimum.

These are just a few of the many, many changes the church has made over the centuries in order to “progress.”
Do you think the church was wrong in instigating such changes?

People often speak on this forum as if they know exactly what God wants and likes, so here’s my two cents on that:
God would like women to be more involved and have more influence in the church; this would please God.
The pope, who is the current vicar of christ, feels the same way and has expressed that.

I know thousands of feminists–men and women–and they don’t support “the destruction of marriage”.
Which modern-day “feminist” says she supports this?

.
The issue isn’t that there is scant evidence, the issue is that there is scant evidence and contradictory hard evidence. along with an implausibly long gap between when it was alleged to have occurred and when the stories started.
 
How come when a story is passed along orally over the centuries that has scant factual support but agrees with church teaching (like many anecdotes in the Christian canon, or the deaths of the apostles, for example)…it can end up being called “tradition” and taken seriously.
But other stories, like that of Joan, are passed along the same way and are still going strong today…and people dismiss it as a myth because it does not fit with church teaching?

(fyi there’s one movie about her released around 2009 that’s really terrific)

You don’t think the church hasn’t “progressed” over time to match the ideas of the time?
Then I suppose you support priests being able to marry again?
Or the return of indulgences?
In the middle ages, people took the Eucharist rarely until the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215, when the Church formalized the requirement to partake and receive communion once a year at minimum.

These are just a few of the many, many changes the church has made over the centuries in order to “progress.”
Do you think the church was wrong in instigating such changes?

People often speak on this forum as if they know exactly what God wants and likes, so here’s my two cents on that:
God would like women to be more involved and have more influence in the church; this would please God.
The pope, who is the current vicar of christ, feels the same way and has expressed that.

I know thousands of feminists–men and women–and they don’t support “the destruction of marriage”.
Which modern-day “feminist” says she supports this?

.
Thousands? That is a little ridiculous. When you make statements like that it is hard to believe your argument. I don’t know if I could even say I know ‘thousands’ of people, especially of a particular political or religious perspective. When I have to assert what they believe or don’t believe it becomes far more limited. That doesn’t prove your argument wrong, but it makes it hard to believe. It would be better to say something like ‘I know many feminists’.

A simple google search of feminism and marriage gives the very first result of a feminist making the exact argument that I proposed was the argument of feminism.

xojane.com/issues/unpopular-opinion-marriage-will-never-be-a-feminist-choice

That is the form of feminism that is influential in the US. Granted, there are other forms of feminism, but they aren’t the driving force for change in the world. They might not openly assert that marriage is an oppressive institution, but it is implied by what they say and the social changes they propose.

Regarding your other argument about pope ‘joan’. It is irrelevant whether the evidence is comparable for certain traditions that are supported by the Church. The fact that the agree with the Churches position is a reason for the Church to support them. Whether anyone believes them is irrelevant to whether the faith of the Church is true. The pope Joan story though is nothing but a subversive myth that is an attempt to undermine the Church. It is a false equivalence, or a false analogy to compare them because the pope Joan myth comes prior to a proposed change whereas another example (ex. The death of the apostles) is subsequent to the faith of the Church. The evidence required for a myth to change the faith is far greater than the evidence needed to support a myth that goes along with the faith. That is mainly because the myth that goes along with the faith doesn’t determine the faith, whereas the other proposes a change to the faith.
 
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