German Church admits aiding Nazis

[Valke2]

Just to refocus on this thread (before the “Obama is Hitler” mantra picks up speed), the Chuch has admitted and apologized for aiding Nazis by using slave labor in WWII. It is not seeking to rationalize or defend what it did.

People may find this link interesting. It gives a detailed timeline of Jewish history. I found the post WWII information informative.

jewishhistory.org.il/history.php?startyear=1940&endyear=1949

 

[Valke2]

Regarding the use of slave labor:

An American military court tried 177 people, including industrialists who directly profited from slave labor. The longest sentence was given to Alfred Krupp (twelve years). Krupp was released from prison with all his co-defendants on February 4, 1951. Although Krupp’s industries had been confiscated, his personal fortune of around fifty million pounds sterling was returned to him. Over three million people were liable to be judged. Out of the 622,300 judged to be guilty, ninety-five percent were given fines or labor without imprisonment. Of the 93,000 major offenders, less then 300 were still in jail after 1949.

 

[Valke2]

I aslo found this, while not having to do with slave labor, shines a little bit of light on why, at least some jews now, are reluctant to give Pope Pius the credit that Jews right after WWII were happy to give:

1941 August 7, MARSHAL PETAIN (France)

Asked the Vatican for guidance regarding upcoming anti-Jewish actions. French Ambassador Leon Bernard consulted with Pope Pius XII, who quoted Thomas Aquinas: since Jews are destined to perpetual slavery, anti-Jewish measures may be enacted. The Vatican also had no desire to argue with the Vichy government over “the Jewish statute.”

Information like this did not come to light to the jewish people immediately after the war. And, as I’ve said in prior posts, many jews mistakenly believed that every good deed the Church did for Jews in WWII and in Germany was done at the direction of the Pope, when it was often done by priests, nuns, etc., on their accord.

 

[cthulhubryan]

I aslo found this, while not having to do with slave labor, shines a little bit of light on why, at least some jews now, are reluctant to give Pope Pius the credit that Jews right after WWII were happy to give:

1941 August 7, MARSHAL PETAIN (France)

Asked the Vatican for guidance regarding upcoming anti-Jewish actions. French Ambassador Leon Bernard consulted with Pope Pius XII, who quoted Thomas Aquinas: since Jews are destined to perpetual slavery, anti-Jewish measures may be enacted. The Vatican also had no desire to argue with the Vichy government over “the Jewish statute.”

What is the source of this information?

In June of 1942 Pius XII publicly spoke out against the mass deportation of Jews from Occupied France. He also ordered the papal nuncio to protest to Petain against the inhuman arrests and deportations of Jews from the French occupied zone to Silesia and parts of Russia.

This is from Rabbi David G. Dalins book _The_Myth_of_Hitler’s_Pope.

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

Hopefully revelations like this will prevent the already shaky path of Pius the XII to sainthood. That would be a slap in the face to the world IMO and a betrayal by the catholic church of its purported truth and honesty.

You don’t even list yourself as Catholic on your profile! Are you not aware that Pius XII had Jews living in the Vatican since the beginning of the war, and risked having the Nazis tromp down the Vatican because of it? he authorized Bishop Roncali, who became John XXIII, to issue baptismal certificates to any Jew who requested one- whether or not the Jew planned to convert, to save lives!

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

I don’t see why it would be unusual for the Church and Hitler to be close. Hitler was a devout Catholic who didn’t like protestants, and it is usual for all churches to support national interests in time of war. There are any number of photographs showing Russian, German, and American priests blessing the troops and praying for victory. Christianity was one of the elements of Nazi mythology. There was a concordat between the Vatican and the German goverment for much of the 30’s. It seems to me that all this discussion is just another example of presentism - assuming that things now are as they always were. Taking a hard look at facts, what could the Pope do against the Nazi government or even the Italian fascists? The answer is very, very little. I think it is pointless to criticize the Church for its role when its only real alternative at the time was to keep a low profile and, attend to the needs of those who applied, and try to come out as best it could. Think about it. What could the Russian Orthodox Church have done to stop the October Revolution or the Stalinist purges of the 1930’s. What could the American Church have done to stop the Iraq war?

Another non-Catholic. Hitler was NOT devout! Yo prove he was. You’re the one who said it. Indeed, Hitler did his best NOT to promote Catholicism.

 

[Eucharisted]

Okay…this is nothing new. Seriously. I learned about this in high school, and that was four years ago.

It didn’t shake my faith, I didn’t think the Church needed to reconcile anything - because, let’s face it, the Church did not cooperate with Nazism, some individual churches and bishops did, and if history has taught me anything, it’s that some Catholics go rotten. And Catholics going rotten is not the Church’s fault - it is their own fault. They chose to disobey, just like Satan chose to disobey God.

 

[Valke2]

What is the source of this information?

THe same link I posted a few posts earlier.

 

[Bennie_P]

Just to refocus on this thread (before the “Obama is Hitler” mantra picks up speed), the Chuch has admitted and apologized for aiding Nazis by using slave labor in WWII. It is not seeking to rationalize or defend what it did.

People may find this link interesting. It gives a detailed timeline of Jewish history. I found the post WWII information informative.

jewishhistory.org.il/history.php?startyear=1940&endyear=1949

That is a intersting link yet it is lacking, one of the great informative highlights posted on it is the birth of Bob Dylan.

Seen in him concert.:harp:

But I may use it for future general reference.

I do not think Obama is Hitler, for I do not believe in reincarnation, if that is the link you thought I was trying to make you thought it in error, I was attempting to point out how Culture Catholics as well as back then and as now do not follow the the words of their Shepard and do things in the popular politcal and worldly arena that which contradicts teachings of the Church.

I truly believe the majority of Jews do not hold Pius XII responsible for the Catholics that failed to live up to their faith during the reign of the NAZIs, just as I nor the majority of the rest of world hold accountable the many Jewish leaders which also failed to convince their fellow brethren the true purpose Hitler’s evil, as well as the collaboration of many Jews which helped the NAZIs in the destruction their own people.

What we really need to understand what evil is going on with stories such as the one which started this thread, and that evil is to put a bearer of distrust between Jews of the world and the State of Israel and the Catholic Church. Which today, the Catholic Church, is probably the the one ally which will stick with the State of Israel as the rest of the world turns against her. Though many of the Jewish faith sees Christianity as an enemy and with understanding because of the many unfortunate incidents thoughout our common history. Some which seemed to be by approval of certain popes’ yet while others spoke out against such prejudice and/or violence against the Jewish people.

The Church understands Our Salvation comes from the Jews and we are an extension (in our eyes the fulfilment) of the Jewish faith. For it was through Judaism, Israel, God Our Father first spoke to the world inorder to save it…

If you can point out any other world leader which did more (the allies armies finally defeating the German army doesn’t count in this challenge, for Pius XII only had the Swiss Guard) in the way of standing up and providing safe haven for Jews during that time period please do so…

Ever since the death of Pope Pius XII in 1958, every pope from John XXIII to Benedict XVI noted his sanctity. In fact, in his first Christmas message, John XXIII said his predecessor was worthy of canonization and called him, “Supreme doctor, light of holy mother Church, lover of the divine law.” Pope John Paul II at the start of his 1987 visit to the United States, defended Pius XII during a meeting with Jewish leaders, recalling “how deeply he felt about the tragedy of the Jewish people, and how hard and effectively he worked to assist them during the Second World War.”
It was Pope Pius XII who authorized false baptismal certificates to save Jewish lives. He also distributed visas for Jews to enter other countries, and ordered the superiors of convents and monasteries to open their doors and hide Jews and other victims of the Nazis and Fascists. Angelo Roncalli (Pope John XXIII) who also distributed many certifcates stated that all he was doing was following the Pope’s directives.
Almost fifty years have passed since Angelo Giuseppe Roncalli, then Apostolic Nuncio in Istanbul, wrote in his Diary about an audience with Pope Pius XII on October 10, 1941. He declared that the Pope’s statements were “prudent.”
It is interesting to note that when news of Pius XII’s death on October 9, 1958, was flashed around the world, an editorial, “Fighter for Peace,” in the Los Angeles Examiner expressed the sentiments of Catholics and non-Catholics, and declared that this Fighter for Peace was the Pope of Peace. Of those mourning the pope’s death, Jews-who credited him with being one of their greatest benefactors-were in the forefront.
Did Pope Pius XII help the Jews? Indeed he did. Nor can one claim he was “silent.” Rather one must speak of his “prudence.” In his Christmas radio messages of '41, '42, and '43 following this audience, Pope Pius XII denounced theories that attribute rights to “a particular race.” He revealed that “hundreds of thousands of people, through no fault of theirs, sometimes only because of nationality or race, were destined to die.”

piusxiipope.info/index.htm

 

[Peccavi]

For a moment let us pause, setting aside (if only for a moment) the holocaust and consider insatead the wholesale butchery of the Polish Catholic Church, bishops, priests, monks and nuns by German Nazis and non-Nazis (ie police and Army units) many of them Catholics…nothing since has been freely admitted, little since has been said. It is time Catholics came to terms with their inhumanity towards fellow Catholics and the Vatican recognise the errors it made. This adds to rather than reduces the Jewish holocaust and suggests that the actions of Cardinals, bishops and priests who supported fascist states were acting against the people of God and the teachings of Jesus Christ

‘See that you love one another as I have loved you’

 

[Bennie_P]

For a moment let us pause, setting aside (if only for a moment) the holocaust and consider insatead the wholesale butchery of the Polish Catholic Church, bishops, priests, monks and nuns by German Nazis and non-Nazis (ie police and Army units) many of them Catholics…nothing since has been freely admitted, little since has been said. It is time Catholics came to terms with their inhumanity towards fellow Catholics and the Vatican recognise the errors it made. This adds to rather than reduces the Jewish holocaust and suggests that the actions of Cardinals, bishops and priests who supported fascist states were acting against the people of God and the teachings of Jesus Christ

‘See that you love one another as I have loved you’

You assume that the “Church” is responsible for individual acts. The Vatican has recognized the crimes of these individuals and has appolized to Jews and the world for not doing more, yet it is false to say that Vatican and the Pope did nothing to stop this. The Church doesn’t not teach violence, genocede or hatred. The Church is made up of sinners which make horrible mistakes, with many “Catholics” following the popular mood and movements within of the countries in which they live. the crimes of these idviduals are not being denied, if it is the lay person, a priest or a Bishop.

We has human beings, as Christians has a unique gift given to us by God, and it is called free choice. NO Pope has the mandate to interfer with that gift, only the ability to teach the faith, thorugh exhortation and example. Pope Pius XII did what he was humanly possible. Still I ask, can anyone show proof, were any other non-military back organizationsaved more Jewish life then the Vartican or Pope Pius XII during this evil time in human history?

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

To compare these actions of some Catholics and say the Church is responsible, would be like saying the Church is responsible for some cafeteria Catholics supporting “freedom of choice”, i.e., abortion and blaming the Church. How many voted for a candidate that supports unfettered abortion with the F.O.C.A. To say the Church is responsible for this because some misguided individual Catholics voted for this individual, is just plane stupid for lack of a better description. The same comparison applies to the world gone made of 60 - 70 years ago.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[Dwyer]

Peccavi wrote:

For a moment let us pause, setting aside (if only for a moment) the holocaust and consider insatead the wholesale butchery of the Polish Catholic Church, bishops, priests, monks and nuns by German Nazis and non-Nazis (ie police and Army units) many of them Catholics…nothing since has been freely admitted, little since has been said.

It is time Catholics came to terms with their inhumanity towards fellow Catholics and the Vatican recognise the errors it made.

This adds to rather than reduces the Jewish holocaust and suggests that the actions of Cardinals, bishops and priests who supported fascist states were acting against the people of God and the teachings of Jesus Christ

‘See that you love one another as I have loved you’

It is too bad I’m writing this kind of late, however, I really think singling out all the moral blame on the Catholic Church is just a bit too much.

WWII had its origins in the First World War, which in turn had its origins in European power politics of the nineteenth-century.

Both Britain and Germany technically had state churches, but both nations in 1914 were secularized, industrialized Enlightenment nations; Britain was more of a Liberal Democracy; Germany was an authoritarian state.

Most historians do blame the start of the First World War on Germany, but some like Niall Ferguson blame Britain.

However, both nations had prepared for war and had bad feelings towards the others for years. Yes, Germany declared war on Russia and invaded Belgium, but the leaders of both the British Empire and Imperial Germany were ready to go to war with the other.

The First World War was really fought for both nations’ selfish reasons and the desire for extreme power. Britain had a moral edge, defending Belgium against the aggressor, but Britain also strategically sought a breakthrough that would reach Germany and Berlin. So Britain was not merely defending some nation states, but it also sought to invade Germany, if it could have.

It was President Wilson who argued for a Christian peace to the war, and also peace terms that would bring democracy to Continental Europe.

Why do you single out Catholics?

It is time Catholics came to terms with their inhumanity towards fellow Catholics and the Vatican recognise the errors it made.

Isn’t it also time for nations like Britain and Germany to recognize the errors they made and come to terms with their inhumanity towards fellow human beings and being the cause of a chain of events that triggered two World Wars?

That said, I think Britain (and France) did try to avoid WWII and a repeat of another terrible world war in the 1930s, but, like Pius XII, one could criticize them and say if Chamberlain had only stood up stronger to Hitler’s annexations of other nation states, peace could perhaps possibly have been achieved. We’ll never know for sure.

In fact, it is known as a certainty that when Hitler annexed either the Rhineland or Saarland, the German Army had orders to turn back if the French soldiers had been willing to fight, but the French did not fight.

Really, there is plenty of moral blame for all the parties involved,

For instance, the harsh terms of the Treaty of Versailles imposed on Germany after WWI, Nazi Germany’s aggression, and I’ll even include the United States for not joining the League of Nations after WWI.

But all I hear about is the Catholic Church, and only the Catholic Church.

And just a reminder, in regard to WWI, there was a Pope (was it Leo XIII) who passed away shortly after WWI began, and he did speak out against nations of Europe going to war against each other. I don’t know about the Pope who succeeded him;

There were also French Catholic priests or Bishops who spoke out against the First World War.

I am not sure how the clergy of the British Empire responded to the First World War and weapons like chlorine gas (yes, Germany used it first, and then Britain followed suite [although the French had some sort of gas grenades]) or to the terms of the Treaty of Versailles, but I don’t remember reading about any British or German clergy who condemned the carnage and inhumane weapons of WWI, although maybe there were some (?).

 

[Peccavi]

The Catholic Church is not an abstraction, but the sum of its parts. What individual Catholics do reflects upon the whole church, as I have learnt throughout my academic life. To try to draw a veil over Church history by simply blaming rogue individuals will not do. It avoids difficult questions. It covers up mistakes. It abandons truth.
Of course the Vatican never supported the mass killings of Polish clergy and nuns, but neither did it speak out against them ! It is this silence that is inexplicable.
If individual acts are to be explained away how is the collective silence ?

 

[Kaninchen]

The First World War was really fought for both nations’ selfish reasons and the desire for extreme power. Britain had a moral edge, defending Belgium against the aggressor, but Britain also strategically sought a breakthrough that would reach Germany and Berlin. So Britain was not merely defending some nation states, but it also sought to invade Germany, if it could have.

While ‘World Power or Downfall’ was, perhaps, the major agenda item behind the war - the Germans chose the time (first international ‘incident’ after the widening of the Kiel Canal for Dreadnaughts) and the strategy (Moltke’s modified Schlieffen Plan).

Quite how a British army of less than a million (including reserves) was supposedly going to defeat a German army of 4.5 million (including reserves) and march on to Berlin in is hard to imagine.

Is there a name for this plan the Brits had to reach Berlin? Shouldn’t they have built-up a bigger army and munitions to supply it?

 

[Peccavi]

I’m not sure what you are arguing about ? For a start we are in different wars. I never mentioned WW1 in which incidentally more Irish Catholics fought and died with the Brits than fought or died for the IRA ! I’m talking about Poland in WW2.
Secondly what’s it to do with Brits ? Don’t you know over half a million Polish emigre’s came to the UK after 1939 ? These Poles flew in the Battle of Britain, fought in North Africa, Italy, France. It has nothing to do with the Brits or the Brits reaching Berlin !

This is about the wholesale butchery of Catholics (especially clergy) BY Catholics for racist reasons that appear to have supplanted any sense of Catholic solidarity. It is about the silence of the Vatican, it about what should be our response as Christians to evil.
Remember “For evil to triumph it is only necessary for good men to do (or say) nothing.”

 

[Kaninchen]

I’m not sure what you are arguing about ? For a start we are in different wars. I never mentioned WW1 in which incidentally more Irish Catholics fought and died with the Brits than fought or died for the IRA ! I’m talking about Poland in WW2.
Secondly what’s it to do with Brits ? Don’t you know over half a million Polish emigre’s came to the UK after 1939 ? These Poles flew in the Battle of Britain, fought in North Africa, Italy, France. It has nothing to do with the Brits or the Brits reaching Berlin !

This is about the wholesale butchery of Catholics (especially clergy) BY Catholics for racist reasons that appear to have supplanted any sense of Catholic solidarity. It is about the silence of the Vatican, it about what should be our response as Christians to evil.
Remember “For evil to triumph it is only necessary for good men to do (or say) nothing.”

I was just responding to the contents of a particular post.

I’d agree with you on the killing of Catholic Poles, by the way - I’m actually glad there’s somebody else around pointing it out; I’ve mentioned it many, many times in the context of arguments about Catholics killed by the Nazis, ie the vast majority of them were killed for being Polish, not for being Catholic.

 

[Peccavi]

What were these men killed for then ?

Albrecht, Robert Johannes,(1907-1943), German
Andrieux, Adolphe (1907-1943), French
Aragnieu, Jacques (1908-1940), French
Bajak, Feliks (1884-1944), Polish
Bieganski, Antoni M. (1900-1944), Polish
Bielen, Antoni (1880-1939), Polish
Blajer, Blaizej (1885-1939), Polish
Bobritzki, Klemens (1911-1944), Polish
Bohm, Fredrich (1900-1940), German
Bojolka, Bronislaw (1895-1939), Polish
Bok, Franciszek (1882-1939), Polish
Borysiak, Jan (1914-1939), Polish
Brodowski, Jan (1910-1939), Polish
Catry, Etienne (1914-1940), French
Charvet, Claude (1917-1940), French
Dejemeppe, Joseph (1914-1940), Belgian
Delcourt, Ignace (1899-1940), French
Delp, Alfred (1907-1945), German
Descampe, Albert (1915-1944), Belgian
Fallon, Henri (1867-1940), Belgian
Fevre, Jean Baptiste (1920-1945), French
Fleury, Charles (1897-1940), French
Fus, Jozef (1906-1944), Polish
Glaudan, Adam (1863-1944), Polish
Glowa, Czeslaw (1909-1939), Polish
Golebiowski, Jozef (1883-1939), Polish
Grabowski, Zbignew (1916-1944), Polish
Grehan, Bernard (1917-1940), French
Grimm, Alois (1886-1944), German
Grussenmeyer, Emile (1914-1940), French
Guinoiseau, Jean (1912-1940), French
Heck, Bartolomew (1913-1940), Belgian
Hrynaszkiewicz, Leonard (1913-1944), Polish
Hulin, Joseph (1913-1940), French
Klein, Jean (1897-1944), French
Klimkiewicz, Feliks (1893-1944), Polish
Konewecki, Jozef (1893-1939), Polish
Kosibowicz, Edward (1895-1944), Polish
La Baume, Francois Xavier de (1915-1940), French
Lange, Rene (1895-1944), Belgian
Latour, Pierre (1910-1940), French
LeClec’h, Jean-Marie (1916-1940), French
Ledant, Augustin (1887-1940), Belgian
Lefebvre, Bruno (1857-1940), Belgian
Lerolle, Jacques (1910-1940), French
Libinski, Herman (1867-1944), Polish
Ludwikowski, Piotr (1905-1939), Polish
Madalinski, Jan (1911-1944), Polish
Maillard, Paul (1909-1940), French
van Malderen, Leonard (1896-1940), Belgian
Merveille, Gerard (1910-1940), French
Mojkowski, Julian (1863-1939), Polish
Montcheuil, Yves de (1900-1944), French
Montigny, Louis de (1902-1940), French
Mroczka, Henryk (1901-1944), Polish
Munk, Thomas (1924-1945), Hungarian
Orzechowski, Stanislaw (1904-1944), Polish
Pawleski, Jan (1868-1944), Polish
Pienkosz, Aleksander (1915-1944), Polish
Pontcharra, Jean de (1908-1940), French
Rigot, Paul (1902-1940), Belgian
Rodle, Josef (1902-1940), German
Rogez, Charles (1900-1940), French
Roszak, Edmund (1900-1943), Polish
Salaun, Pierre (1913-1940), Belgian
Servais, Joseph (1881-1940), Belgian
Steinmayr, Johann (1890-1944), Austrian
Sudy, Karol (1908-1939), Polish
Swiatopelk-Mirski, Antoni (1907-1942), Polish
Swiecicki, Czeslaw (1912-1944), Polish
SZTARK, Adam (1907-1942), Polish
Szymaniak, Franciszek (1916-1944), Polish
Tomaszewski, Stanislaw (1919-1944), Polish
Tortat, Pierre (1907-1940), French
Toulouse, Pierre (1917-1940), French
Tresca, Louis (1911-1941), French
Watrobski, Wojciech (1917-1939), Polish
WIACEK, Wladyslaw (1910-1944), Polish
Wilczynski, Henryk (1915-1944), Polish
Wnek, Stanislaw (1859-1944), Polish
Wroblewski, Mieczyslaw (1912-1944), Polish
Zabek, Edmund (1899-1939), Polish
They are all Jesuites ! They were killed for being good Catholics and no other reason !!

 

[Kaninchen]

What were these men killed for then ?

There were Catholics on both sides - members of the persecutors and persecuted. A large number of Catholics were killed - the vast majority because they were Polish ‘Untermenschen’ and in the way.

 

[Peccavi]

I admit I am researching the Polish Church 1939-45. I am inerested in several aspects of the Polish situation and how individuals reacted differently to them. I am also interested in the Vaticans responses to the pleading of Poish bishops for the Pope to speak out against the destruction of the Polish Church.
You are right about anti-Slav attitudes among most Germans at that time. What interests me is WHY this racial dogma was more powerful than a Cathoic faith ie. among Rhinelanders and Austrians in particular. Why it is easier (though no less abhorent) to see the reasons for this in relation to anti-semitism it is less easy to square in German dealings with Catholic Poles. Poland is crucial because it is in Poland that Race and Religion conflict most aggressively … I have found remarkably few examples of Catholic Germans saying I cannot kill Poles because I am a fellow Catholic. This disturbs me and is leading me to some bitter conclusions.