German synod father says Church could give 'private blessings' to same-sex unions [CH-UK]

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LongingSoul said:
The Pope has tried to explain ‘synodality’ to people but they just won’t listen. The ‘proposals’ are an expression of one perspective for the sake of synodality. Hopefully what will happen is that the African Bishops won’t be as obstinately defiant against synodality and will contribute their perspectives with theological bases and let the process of synodality flow in the interests of discerning Gods will.

I’m starting to move from annoyance to complete irritation with the obstinate blockers of the process. It happened with Vatican II and other councils of the vision of the 20th century papacy as well. The reforms of Vatican II were often inordinately skewed because of the obstinate conservative blockers who wouldn’t come to the table in the reforms with their perspective because… ‘nothing can change! It all has to stay the same! We refuse to contribute to anything that proposes even the slightest change!’ Why can’t they get it and just… leave. I hold my hopes for the conservative African bishops properly participating in synodality as envisioned by Pope Francis. Otherwise the divisions are just going to be compounded and any reforms will once again be skewed by obstinate blockers!!
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In other words, all of Christian doctrine is now up for debate because of synodality.
 
Mongo said:
In other words, all of Christian doctrine is now up for debate because of synodality.
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Church teaching has been in a constant state of unfolding from age to age. The teachings today whilst proclaiming the same immutable truths are much more developed than in the 4th century. As the world changes new things have to be addressed in relation to Church teaching and therefore we have teaching now that pertains to contraception and abortion and other things that weren’t that widely practiced until the mid 20th century. Heck there is still even controversy with some Catholics claiming that NFP is contraception and shouldn’t be practiced by Catholics and that’s despite Pope St JPIIs theology of the body which affirms the goodness of NFP. All the little nuances have to be teased out when new developments happen in the world, in order to distinguish what is good from what is evil.
 
LongingSoul said:
Church teaching has been in a constant state of unfolding from age to age. The teachings today whilst proclaiming the same immutable truths are much more developed than in the 4th century. As the world changes new things have to be addressed in relation to Church teaching and therefore we have teaching now that pertains to contraception and abortion and other things that weren’t that widely practiced until the mid 20th century. Heck there is still even controversy with some Catholics claiming that NFP is contraception and shouldn’t be practiced by Catholics and that’s despite Pope St JPIIs theology of the body which affirms the goodness of NFP. All the little nuances have to be teased out when new developments happen in the world, in order to distinguish what is good from what is evil.
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That is irrelevant. The doctrine of the Cburch developed from what was always present. The doctrines weren’t simply thought up on the spot. Trinitarian theology finds its sources in apostolic times and if you read the fathers you can see a line of development from them up to the cappodocians. The idea that same sex marriages can be blessed is a novelty that contradicts the whole history of the tradition. It isn’t a question of deveopment, it is a break. Catholic doctrine isn’t up for debate within the Church (or atleast it should t be). What is being introduced is nihilism, in which nothing is true. Not all opinions are the same, and to treat them as if they were is to treat truth as if it doesn’t exist.

The introduction of synodality without the concept of heresy is going to destroy the Church. Without faithfulness to the tradition synodality is reduced to democracy. The eastern churches understand tradition in a way that allows for synodality, but the west doesn’t. In the east it is all about faithfulness to the tradition of the church, while the west has an explicit doctrine of development. the west is consciously trying to develop their theology. Now they have abandoned the concept of heresy. Are we going to abandon the concept of infallibility too? Is the church going to become a democracy in which its moral and theological teachings are up for democratic debate by the ‘synod’? I hope not.
 
Mongo said:
That is irrelevant. The doctrine of the Cburch developed from what was always present. The doctrines weren’t simply thought up on the spot. Trinitarian theology finds its sources in apostolic times and if you read the fathers you can see a line of development from them up to the cappodocians. The idea that same sex marriages can be blessed is a novelty that contradicts the whole history of the tradition. It isn’t a question of deveopment, it is a break. Catholic doctrine isn’t up for debate within the Church (or atleast it should t be). What is being introduced is nihilism, in which nothing is true. Not all opinions are the same, and to treat them as if they were is to treat truth as if it doesn’t exist.

The introduction of synodality without the concept of heresy is going to destroy the Church. Without faithfulness to the tradition synodality is reduced to democracy. The eastern churches understand tradition in a way that allows for synodality, but the west doesn’t. In the east it is all about faithfulness to the tradition of the church, while the west has an explicit doctrine of development. the west is consciously trying to develop their theology. Now they have abandoned the concept of heresy. Are we going to abandon the concept of infallibility too? Is the church going to become a democracy in which its moral and theological teachings are up for democratic debate by the ‘synod’? I hope not.
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What’s happened here is that you’ve misread Bishop Bodes comment. He said…

*Bishop Franz-Josef Bode of Osnabruck said it was possible to see strengths as well as weaknesses in both gay relationships and in those of cohabiting heterosexuals.

He said that the Catholic Church could not accept gay marriage because it understood marriage as a union between a husband and a wife that was open to the procreation of children.

But the bishop said that since the Church was bound not to discriminate against homosexuals by the Catechism of the Catholic Church it should do more to support those who were in stable unions.

He said: “With prayer and a private form of blessing you will be able to accompany their way.”*

He’s suggesting prayer and a private form of blessing. So that’s definitely not an acknowledgement of marriage since marriage has to conducted before witnesses.
 
LongingSoul said:
What’s happened here is that you’ve misread Bishop Bodes comment. He said…

*Bishop Franz-Josef Bode of Osnabruck said it was possible to see strengths as well as weaknesses in both gay relationships and in those of cohabiting heterosexuals.

He said that the Catholic Church could not accept gay marriage because it understood marriage as a union between a husband and a wife that was open to the procreation of children.*

But the bishop said that since the Church was bound not to discriminate against homosexuals by the Catechism of the Catholic Church it should do more to support those who were in stable unions.

He said: “With prayer and a private form of blessing you will be able to accompany their way.”

He’s suggesting prayer and a private form of blessing. So that’s definitely not an acknowledgement of marriage since marriage has to conducted before witnesses.
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When God said to Adam…‘Where are you?’ it didn’t mean He did not know where he was. God was asking Adam where he was in his walk with Him. Blessing a sin in private does not mean it is hidden from God. To enable sin is not the way to go and that is not what homosexuals want who are trying to live the teachings of Jesus. Find this program on EWTN about Courage and stop promoting the nonsense that their are loopholes in the teaching of Jesus.

INVITED TO COURAGEOUS LOVE-THE CATHOLIC CHURCH AND HOMOSEXUALITY - PROVIDING AUTHENTIC PASTORAL CARE
 
johnnyc176 said:
When God said to Adam…‘Where are you?’ it didn’t mean He did not know where he was. God was asking Adam where he was in his walk with Him. Blessing a sin in private does not mean it is hidden from God. To enable sin is not the way to go and that is not what homosexuals want who are trying to live the teachings of Jesus. Find this program on EWTN about Courage and stop promoting the nonsense that their are loopholes in the teaching of Jesus.

INVITED TO COURAGEOUS LOVE-THE CATHOLIC CHURCH AND HOMOSEXUALITY - PROVIDING AUTHENTIC PASTORAL CARE
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It’s not ‘blessing a sin’ so much as blessing what it good. Alcoholics and other addicts used to be condemned holis bolis, but with advances in psychology it is recognised that addiction is a disease and that what a person is searching for in the bottle or drugs, is unconditional love. We now allow Catholic funerals for addicts and suicides and allow burial in Catholic cemeteries. What were thought to be irredeemable sinners are now understood to be ‘the afflicted’. Our understanding of disorders can change to help us be more merciful in our practices.
 
LongingSoul said:
It’s not ‘blessing a sin’ so much as blessing what it good. Alcoholics and other addicts used to be condemned holis bolis, but with advances in psychology it is recognised that addiction is a disease and that what a person is searching for in the bottle or drugs, is unconditional love. We now allow Catholic funerals for addicts and suicides and allow burial in Catholic cemeteries. What were thought to be irredeemable sinners are now understood to be ‘the afflicted’. Our understanding of disorders can change to help us be more merciful in our practices.
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That’s not what the bishop is saying here though. There would be no problem if the bishop were calling for some program to walk with those suffering from SSA in their effort to overcome and fight their addiction. There would be no problem if he was talking about a special prayer or blessing for those in their fight against this addiction. But that’s not what he suggested. He suggested a private blessing on the couple.
 
zz912 said:
That’s not what the bishop is saying here though. There would be no problem if the bishop were calling for some program to walk with those suffering from SSA in their effort to overcome and fight their addiction. There would be no problem if he was talking about a special prayer or blessing for those in their fight against this addiction. But that’s not what he suggested. He suggested a private blessing on the couple.
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You’ve got to bear in mind that this Catholic Herald malarki and Edward Pentin are shifty. It has reported in the original article that Bishop Bode proposes Communion without repentance and implies a Catholic blessing of same-sex union. I’ll post a link to the original article which is in German if you can use a translator site… but you’ll see the difference between what the Bishop really says and how it’s reported by Catholic Herald.

domradio.de/themen/weltkirche/2015-09-11/bischof-bode-ueber-seine-erwartungen-die-familiensynode-rom
 
LongingSoul said:
But the bishop said that since the Church was bound not to discriminate against homosexuals by the Catechism of the Catholic Church it should do more to support those who were in stable unions…
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The Catechism states that UNJUST discrimination is not to be practiced.

There is a difference. The discernment of a homosexual relationship being against God’s plan, and objectively immoral is not an unjust discrimination.

In fact, in would be an act of injustice NOT to declare it to be wrong.
 
LongingSoul, you’re flirting with heresy. Homosexual unions are sinful in the eyes of God. Allowing them to be “blessed” is a deadly sin. That’s it. There can be no debate. You’re either with Christ or against Him.
 
Caldera599 said:
LongingSoul, you’re flirting with heresy. Homosexual unions are sinful in the eyes of God. Allowing them to be “blessed” is a deadly sin. That’s it. There can be no debate. You’re either with Christ or against Him.
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I’m not ‘flirting with heresy’. If the Pope doesn’t condemn as heretics these Bishops and Cardinals who’ve been invited to present ideas to the synod for the sake of better walking with people… what qualifies you to? I am endeavouring to counter the ‘hostile inflexibility’ of people that don’t want to allow the Church to seek knowledge and wisdom in the way she always has. This bishop may have it all wrong but he is contributing to the question under discussion in order that a fuller picture might emerge. We know for certain that since Vatican II, there have been a force of conservative traditionalists who’ve prevented the blood flowing through the veins of the Church because they want things to be how they want them… not let the Holy Spirit speak through lots of voices. Pope Francis has made it very clear in lots of ways, he is doing his darndest to dispel this type of inflexibility.
 
LongingSoul said:
I’m not ‘flirting with heresy’. If the Pope doesn’t condemn as heretics these Bishops and Cardinals who’ve been invited to present ideas to the synod for the sake of better walking with people… what qualifies you to? I am endeavouring to counter the ‘hostile inflexibility’ of people that don’t want to allow the Church to seek knowledge and wisdom in the way she always has. This bishop may have it all wrong but he is contributing to the question under discussion in order that a fuller picture might emerge. We know for certain that since Vatican II, there have been a force of conservative traditionalists who’ve prevented the blood flowing through the veins of the Church because they want things to be how they want them… not let the Holy Spirit speak through lots of voices. Pope Francis has made it very clear in lots of ways, he is doing his darndest to dispel this type of inflexibility.
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From your perspective as a faithful Catholic, that and all that you have said here was very well said, LongingSoul. :clapping:
 
LongingSoul said:
We know for certain that since Vatican II, there have been a force of conservative traditionalists who’ve prevented the blood flowing through the veins of the Church .
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Interesting accusation. What ‘blood’ was prevented from flowing.

If there is certitude in your level of knowledge, please outline who these traditionalists were and how they would have power over the Magisterium of the Church
 
Brendan said:
Interesting accusation. What ‘blood’ was prevented from flowing.

If there is certitude in your level of knowledge, please outline who these traditionalists were and how they would have power over the Magisterium of the Church
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I have a suspicion that a lot of what the Pope says doesn’t reach US shores. Perhaps it is too hard to translate everything or perhaps it’s just selective reporting. From his earliest days as Pope, Pope Francis has been targeting the ‘blockers’. This was an early article from AsiaNews reporting his words about Vatican II and Pope St JohnXIII…

*“The Council was a beautiful work of the Holy Spirit. Consider Pope John. He looked like a good parish priest; he was obedient to the Holy Spirit and he did it. But after 50 years, have we have done everything the Holy Spirit told us in the Council? In the continuity of growth of the Church that was the Council? No. We celebrate this anniversary, we make a monument, as long as it does not bother us. We do not want to change. What is more, some people want to go back. This is stubbornness, this is what we call, trying to tame the Holy Spirit, this is what we call becoming foolish and slow of heart.”

"The same thing happens even in our personal lives, "the pope added. In fact, “the Spirit moves us to take a more evangelical way,” but we resist. The final exhortation is “Do not resist the Holy Spirit. The Spirit sets us free, with Jesus’ freedom, with the freedom of God’s children.”

"Do not resist the Holy Spirit. This is the grace I wish we would all ask for from the Lord: to be docile towards the Holy Spirit, that Spirit that comes from us and makes us go forward on the path of holiness, the beautiful holiness of the Church, the grace of docility towards the Holy Spirit. "*

asianews.it/news-en/Stubborn-are-those-who-would-turn-back-from-Vatican-II,-pope-says-27672.html
 
Eventually we’re going to have to face up to the reality that quite a few people within the church no longer accept Catholic teaching regarding homosexual behaviour.
 
Seamus_L said:
Eventually we’re going to have to face up to the reality that quite a few people within the church no longer accept Catholic teaching regarding homosexual behaviour.
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I believe you are correct.
 
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