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Germans angered over Catholic Church's decision to deny sacraments for church tax scofflaws
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devoutchristian
Guest
If a person denies their faith to the state, then they are an apostate and may not receive Catholic sacraments.
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Warandpeace
Guest
Is this tithing via the government?
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UntimelyBourn
Guest
I think this falls in the rendering unto Caesar category. From the article it sounds like the reasoning behind denying people the sacraments for not paying the church tax is because they are evading lawfully owed taxes. Apparently in German law if you attend a Church or a synagogue you have to pay tax. So the Church is saying you should pay it. Maybe it’s a bit harsh but if German Catholics really have a problem with the way their government levies taxes then they should work through the proper channels to change the law.
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Phemie
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It’s not about not paying the tax but about the fact that they have made a public renunciation of their Catholic faith in order to avoid paying the tax. This declaration that they are no longer Catholic is forwarded to their baptismal parish and entered into their baptismal record. Why should the Church provide the sacraments to someone who has publicly denied that they are Catholic?
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quiet52
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Personally I think the Church in Germany should refuse to cooperate with the government. If the state notifies a parish that a Catholic person has not paid the “church tax” and has renounced his/her membership in the Church, the parish should recognize this for what it is – a refusal to pay a forced tax, not a true renunciation of the faith. The Church should ignore the government’s notifications, and not amend individual Baptismal records. Couldn’t the Church invite Catholics to donate outside of the tax?
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Phemie
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They do donate outside the tax, according to German residents who posted on this topic earlier this year.
The martyrs were tortured and killed for not renouncing their faith and here we have Catholics who will renounce it to avoid paying out money.
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markomalley
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*Caveat: As an American, the idea of a “Kirchensteuer” is absolutely foreign to me…I do not comprehend the idea of paying a tax to the government for the government to turn around and pay to the Church. It seems, somehow, “wrong” to me.
I’m not German, so this is none of my business, but it seems to me that if such a law was to exist in the USA, I would fully and vociferously push to have such a thing repealed. Donations should be free-will, corporal works of mercy should be free-will. To do otherwise somehow seems contrary to the “spirit” of the teachings of the Church.
*Having said that,
[bibledrb]matt 10:33[/bibledrb]
It seems like a German who renounces his Faith, for whatever reason, is an apostate. Period. If he/she doesn’t like the law, change the law.
Secondly, the actual decree states:
*Die aus der Kirche ausgetretene Person … arf die Sakramente der Buße, Eucharistie, Firmung undKrankensalbung – außer in Todesgefahr - nicht empfangen, *
(Translation: the person who has “leaked” (abandoned) out of the Church may not receive the sacraments of Baptism, Eucharist, Confirmation and Annointing of the Sick, except in the case of the danger of death.)
It also says such a person may not hold an office in the Church, may not be a godparent, cannot be on parish or diocesan councils, cannot vote in Church elections, cannot be a member of ecclesiastical associations.
There is no mention about “paying to pray.” There is no mention about being barred from entry to a church building. Frankly, there is no mention about being denied the sacrament of penance. And they say that a person may receive the anointing of the sick in the danger of death, regardless. No mention of this in the PRI article, huh?
Can. 1364 §1. Without prejudice to the prescript of can. 194, §1, n. 2, an apostate from the faith, a heretic, or a schismatic incurs a latae sententiae excommunication…
Should a child of a parent who has renounced the faith be baptized?
Can. 868 §1. For an infant to be baptized licitly:…2/ there must be a founded hope that the infant will be brought up in the Catholic religion; if such hope is altogether lacking, the baptism is to be delayed according to the prescripts of particular law after the parents have been advised about the reason.
Seems that if a parent has renounced the Faith, there is pretty scant hope that the child will be brought up in the Faith, isn’t there?
Should a child of a parent who has renounced the faith (or the person who has renounced the faith) be confirmed?
Can. 889 §2. To receive confirmation licitly outside the danger of death requires that a person who has the use of reason be suitably instructed, properly disposed, and able to renew the baptismal promises.
Again, it seems that if a person has renounced the Faith would not be properly disposed…and it is likely that a person who has renounced the Faith would not be able to renew his/her baptismal promises (after all, either the person lied when renouncing the Faith or would be lying when affirming the baptismal promises during the confirmation rite)
So…if you deal with the actual statement of the German Bishop’s Conference, it seems that they are doing the exact right thing.
Sort of surprising that the media wouldn’t report it correctly, isn’t it? (/sarcasm)
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504Katrin
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There’s no way of not paying church taxes in Germany as a Catholic as they pull it out of your bank account before your salary even lands there. Around one tenth of those paid takes flows into the Catholic church. The only way (maybe there’s a criminal and sneaky way I don’t know of) not to pay those taxes is if you leave the church. If you once were Catholic and left the church and come to attend lets say a family members’ celebration where sacraments are distributed, you’re not allowed to receive any of them as you’re not Catholic anymore.
I might add that a friend of mine was not allowed to attend his brothers’ wedding as he’s a Catholic but didn’t go to church and never donated. This happened in the State of Pennsylvania.
I might add that a friend of mine was not allowed to attend his brothers’ wedding as he’s a Catholic but didn’t go to church and never donated. This happened in the State of Pennsylvania.
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JMJSHJ
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I’m not a Canon Lawyer but in this situation I can’t see how these people who are considered apostate’s due to refusing to pay the Church tax fall under this category. Like yourself this is very foreign to me not just as a Canadian but as a Catholic. Since paying taxes are not voluntary (contrary to what the IRS may say) the Catholics of Germany are being forced to pay a fixed amount. This also seems wrong to me.
I would love to hear a clarification from Rome on this.
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CatholicSheila
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They’re not considered apostate’s for refusing to pay the tax. They’re seen as apostates because they say “I am no longer Catholic”.
That is the definition of apostate. It doesn’t matter why someone is doing it, it is denying the Church and it is denying Christ. The bible and the Church is very clear that this is not acceptable.
Someone who denies Christ should be denied the sacraments of confirmation, holy matrimony, holy orders, etc.
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JMJSHJ
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Doesn’t duress play a factor at all? I wouldn’t say that but I would surely raise a voice that would compel Rome to intervene.
Do we honestly think that Pope Francis would approve of this in light of his Pontificate?
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april32010
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can you clarify this ?
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CatholicSheila
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What good is complaining to Rome? Rome can’t change German law. The problem is that Germans are stating they are no longer Catholic. So long as this law is on the books, people will need to either declare their faith or deny it. Rome can’t change the fact that someone saying “I am no longer Catholic” is apostasy. It simply is.
If Catholics have an issue with this law, then they need to take it up with the Government.
** markomalley** quoted the appropriate scripture from Matthew for us.
[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 10:33[/BIBLEDRB]
I think the following is also relevant:
1 Timothy 6:10
*For the love of money is the root of all evils; it is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced their hearts with many pangs. *
To deny Christ for money… I don’t think this cuts it as been under duress. No one is threatening death or torture. Even in that case, we shouldn’t deny Christ, although this would only be through the grace of God. When we do deny Christ, we should get to confession ASAP and make a firm resolution not to do it again. In this case that would involve admitting to the tax man that you are indeed Catholic.
To deny Christ is one of the gravest sins. It would be an absolute scandal to allow those who do so knowingly, and willingly, to continue to receive Christ in the Bless Sacrament or to engage in the other sacraments - with exception to those seeking reconciliation or last rites.
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markomalley
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Why would this be duress?
Duress would be if they held a gun to your head and said they’d shoot you if you didn’t renounce the Faith.
(and, btw, governments have done that before…and when they did, Christians were expected to die before denying Christ)
This is for pure greed.
And somehow I think the current pope would not give people a pass in those circumstances. He has consistently preached against materialism. Why would he then give folks a pass for doing the ultimate material act?
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JMJSHJ
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The Church can’t change German law that is correct, but the Church in Germany is cooperating with this when they say that they will deny the main Sacrament (Eucharist) if you don’t contribute X amount of money.
I contribute to my parish. We all, who are able to, should. But this law, in my opinion goes above and beyond that. What if you are unemployed and on social assistance? Do they? What if you have a family of 10 and can’t afford the 8% of your net wages?
We don’t have to justify our faith in Christ to the State.
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JMJSHJ
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Perhaps duress is a stretch.
I seriously doubt that our Pope would NEVER deny the sacrament of the Eucharist to those who are poor.
Even in older times when nearly everyone gave 10%, those that couldn’t I am sure weren’t denied sacraments.
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markomalley
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The “poor” aren’t the ones who are renouncing their faith. It’s the middle class professionals and upper class. The ones who go to church on Christmas Eve, because it’s the thing to do. But, hey, they’ve got football practice, so forget about Easter.
The ones who get their babies baptized in order to placate grandma. The ones who want a nice church wedding and a nice church funeral, but who don’t want to be bothered in between.
If it was a problem with the poor, that would be a different issue…
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504Katrin
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Social assistance will pay your church taxes in that case. We have a social system here that covers the poor.
It’s around 9 to 10% of your gross income.
Edit: Exept for Muslims, they don’t pay no religious tax.
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Phemie
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The church tax is a percentage of your income tax.
If you pay no income tax or minimal income tax, because you have little or no income or a lot of deductions, then your church tax is little or nothing. Said church tax is also tax deductible just as any other charitable donation is.
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