germs on the Communion cup

[hasikelee]

How long will it be until I get killer tuberculosis, hepatitis, HIV, the flu, or something else from kissing her?

I have expressed my concerns to her, but she persists.

Your thoughts are appreciated.

• Rob in Oregon

Killer tuberculosis? What is that? I thought most everyone is inoculated against TB? The symptoms are typically easy to spot and immediate, unless it is dormant.

The big thing for me is the gross factor. Oh my gosh, just thinking of having to swallow after everyone else makes me gag. I’m not one to be prissy (I’ve eaten with babies for example) but just the thought of it…shudder

Interesting note, I know this is anectdotal, but I remember my little bro did a science project on this. He compared various surfaces, including a chalice, and the rate of growth of common bacteria and viruses.

From his conclusions, buddy, you should be more afraid of touching your own door knob then of what your wife gets from the chalice. In fact, it took my bro several attempts to get anything to actually grow on the chalice.

Of course, you could attribute this to spiritual reasons…but most likely it has to do with the type of material used.

 

[AngelRose81]

We had this discussion the other night in RCIA and one of the other sponsors made this comment:

“Shouldn’t we have enough faith and belief that that is TRULY the Body and Blood of Christ so that we wouldn’t let something like ‘I’m going to get some sickness from drinking the Precious Blood’ get in the way of our receiving the Precious Blood?”

he’s very outspoken and that sort of rattled some others but after he said it I thought about it and came to the conclusion that he had a pretty good point. Why worry about diseases if we believe that we are truly eating Jesus’ flesh and drinking His blood?

 

[stmm]

My thought is, if God intends for me to get any disease, he will let it be done to me. If he doesn’t, then he won’t let it happen.

 

[whatevergirl]

Perhaps this has been discussed already.

Our parish has Communion under both species. At the mass we attend, there are about 500 people receiving the Precious Blood from 4 chalices.

Knowing what I do about communicable diseases, this seems like medical suicide.

My wife insists on being a Eucharistic minister, often distributing the Precious Blood, and then consuming the “leftovers” (no irreverence intended) once everyone else has received.

How long will it be until I get killer tuberculosis, hepatitis, HIV, the flu, or something else from kissing her?

I have expressed my concerns to her, but she persists.

Your thoughts are appreciated.

• Rob in Oregon

Like others have said, many diseases die once they are airborne…

That being said…and this might sound very odd, but through a prayer one day a few years ago, I truly felt the Holy Spirit impress upon me to drink the precious blood of Christ. (I am insane about germs–a true germaphobe lol) That I shouldn’t worry about germs, etc, that this is what I should do. And, knock on wood–I have been drinking from the cup, and have not become ill from it. I don’t know if that sounds bizarre, but just wanted to share that.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Perhaps this has been discussed already.

Our parish has Communion under both species. At the mass we attend, there are about 500 people receiving the Precious Blood from 4 chalices.

Knowing what I do about communicable diseases, this seems like medical suicide.

My wife insists on being a Eucharistic minister, often distributing the Precious Blood, and then consuming the “leftovers” (no irreverence intended) once everyone else has received.

How long will it be until I get killer tuberculosis, hepatitis, HIV, the flu, or something else from kissing her?

I have expressed my concerns to her, but she persists.

Your thoughts are appreciated.

• Rob in Oregon

Well I have consumed the remaining Blood of Christ for 12 years and received near the end of the line hundreds of times after most likely hundreds of thousands of people all over the country and a few other places and I’ve never gotten sick.

 

[Phemie]

My thought is, if God intends for me to get any disease, he will let it be done to me. If he doesn’t, then he won’t let it happen.

To me that’s the equivalent of walking into traffic blindfolded and saying “If it’s not my time I won’t die.”

That said, I receive from the chalice because I know of no instance of serious disease transmission to date. When I’m contagious, be it a cold, a cold sore (no one wants herpes) or cracked lips (possibility of blood contamination) I limit myself to receiving a Host.

 

[robert_ambrose]

i hope your not suggesting we bring a hip flask,seriously, it’s a matter of choice, if you feel uncomfortable , just take the host.simple.

 

[joshua1]

The chances of catching anything like such is slim to none. Tuberculosis is an airborne disease, NOT CONTACT. Now, HIV and Hepatitis are bloodborne pathogens. The HIV virus can only live outside the bloodstream for a few seconds, as is why you cant catch it from a tolilet seat for example. The greatest chance of transmission for HIV is blood to blood contact. There are low concentrations found in saliva and such, but the acidic content of the mouth kills it almost instataneously. So the liklehood of transmission is low to almost none. NOw flu and cold viruses are a different story. These tend to live and thrive on surfaces much longer. But you have a greater chance of catching the flu from dirty money, a public telephone, shaking a infected persons hand or even the door of a public building than you do from the communion cup.

 

[Diane_Huck]

Does anyone have an official link to get information on this issue? We can all give our opinions, but scientifically, what’s the deal?

 

[otjm]

Following up on what (name removed by moderator) reported, I have often asked people the following question:

Suppose that you are near the end of the Communion line; you have received the Host and as you are passing the Cup, you realize that instead of someone from the parish - a priest, deacon or EMHC hodling the Cup, Christ Himself is physically present and holding out the Cup to you saying “The Blood of Christ”, would you still refuse and pass by?

I accept that it is not necessary to Receive, that Christ is truly present, Body, Blood, Sould and Divinitiy in either species. That is not the issue.

The issue is, if Christ Himself suddenly appeard and was offering you the Cup, would you refuse?

Just a curious question.

 

[NewUlm1976_2000]

This has been addressed by the Catholic & Episcopal Churches. There does not appear to have been one documented case of serious disease transmission from receiving under both species. As for colds or influenza, shaking hands at the Sign of Peace would be a more likely culprit.

The alcohol in the wine which remains throughout probably acts as a type of purifier with many of the germs. Also if you are exposed to more general germs (flu, cold), in small amounts, that builds up resistance to that type of virus.

I have done the cup with EM duty many times and have never gotten sick from it.

 

[EasterJoy]

Thank you, this is very practical information!!

Although the risk of spreading infection is low, it is not entirely absent. It would seem charitable, then, to refrain from receiving the Precious Blood when one is aware of having a disease that could be passed on in that manner, and prudent to refrain when one has serious deficiencies in immunity.

 

[LilyM]

Thank you, this is very practical information!!

Although the risk of spreading infection is low, it is not entirely absent. It would seem charitable, then, to refrain from receiving the Precious Blood when one is aware of having a disease that could be passed on in that manner, and prudent to refrain when one has serious deficiencies in immunity.

Of course - and people in these situations do refrain, just as they would refrain from kissing or coughing all over others. Otherwise, your risk of catching a disease from the Communion cup would probably be no less or greater than your risk from simply breathing the same air as the same ill people.

Put it this way, I don’t regularly receive from the Chalice, but I did spend nigh on a year as an EMHC, including consuming remaining Precious Blood after everyone had received. Never got ill, nothing like, from doing so.

Working in a call centre, on the other hand, using phones, computers and headsets that are used by other colleagues before and after my shifts, I was sick more often than I’ve ever been in my life - at least until I learned to use the provided disinfectant on the phones, computer keyboards and headsets.

 

[EasterJoy]

Of course - and people in these situations do refrain, just as they would refrain from kissing or coughing all over others. Otherwise, your risk of catching a disease from the Communion cup would probably be no less or greater than your risk from simply breathing the same air as the same ill people.

Put it this way, I don’t regularly receive from the Chalice, but I did spend nigh on a year as an EMHC, including consuming remaining Precious Blood after everyone had received. Never got ill, nothing like, from doing so.

Working in a call centre, on the other hand, using phones, computers and headsets that are used by other colleagues before and after my shifts, I was sick more often than I’ve ever been in my life - at least until I learned to use the provided disinfectant on the phones, computer keyboards and headsets.

There have been times when I was a EMHC that I knew there was a nasty bug going around at my kids’ school that I didn’t receive the Precious Blood unless there was some remaining at the end, on the chance I could be contagious without knowing it. I can handle those grammar school bugs, but I worry about the older and frail people in the parish. (If I felt sure I was sick myself, I’d find a replacement.)

 

[a_cermak]

Killer tuberculosis? What is that? I thought most everyone is inoculated against TB? The symptoms are typically easy to spot and immediate, unless it is dormant.

Not in the States they’re not. I didn’t even know there was a vaccine against TB.

I take it he meant the multiply antibiotic resistant strain of TB. That is a killer strain because it’s immune just about everything science has to throw at it.

And I think he was being hyperbolic.

The alcohol content is high in communion wine, but not high enough to offset the oils that build up from all the people on the chalice (think lipstick, skin oils…).

 

[Digitonomy]

NewUlm 1976_2000:

The alcohol in the wine which remains throughout probably acts as a type of purifier with many of the germs.

BlaineTog:

In seriousness, I was under the impression that the wine they use for communion has a higher-than-normal proof specifically to kill any bacteria that might find its way in there.

benedictgal:

the form of wine, does, after all, contain alcohol. The issue of “germs” shouldn’t have to be that much of a problem.

This is a common misconception, so I’ll try to give a more better-documented answer than usual.

In the U.S., if a label simply says “Table Wine” then the alcohol content is between 11% and 14%…
Today wines can come in much higher, especially in hot climates like Australia. And, with new viticulture techniques, and greater controls in the winemaking process, it is not unusual to see wine over 15% in alcohol. There are some Zinfandels and Syrahs, the heavy hitter grapes, that can go up to 16.5 in alcohol by volume, which is huge. Obviously, the “Table Wine” designation is not on their label. Source

Mouthwashes generally run from 18 to 26% alcohol. However, the alcohol is mostly a solvent. The antimicrobial properties in these products are from other ingredients. And their purpose is to wash away excess food particles left in the mouth and reduce the bacterial count, not sterilize the mouth. The reason alcohol content in mouthwashes is so low is to prevent irritation of the mucus membranes in the mouth.

Actual sterilization generally takes 60% alcohol. I tried to find a definitive source with a websearch, but there was variation depending on the use - a site for barbers recommended 50-60% as an antiseptic, but most other sites I found recommended ~70%. Which happens to be the strength of normal rubbing alcohol at any pharmacy (if you go to the dollar store, it’ll probably only be 50%).

So unfortunately, the alcoholic content in wine falls far short of what is needed to effectively kill germs.

BlaineTog, I think you can find some other threads where type of wine used at mass is discussed, but the short of it is that any grape wine can be used. I doubt anything much above 20% could really be considered wine, and would thus be invalid matter.

 

[EasterJoy]

Not in the States they’re not. I didn’t even know there was a vaccine against TB.

I take it he meant the multiply antibiotic resistant strain of TB. That is a killer strain because it’s immune just about everything science has to throw at it.

And I think he was being hyperbolic.

The alcohol content is high in communion wine, but not high enough to offset the oils that build up from all the people on the chalice (think lipstick, skin oils…).

If the cup is properly wiped and turned for each communicant, you’re not going to see a smear of lipstick on it when that part of the rim comes back around. (And if you ever do, you should mention it to whomever is in charge of sending memos out to the EMsHC.)

Again, the CDC article quoted above says “a recent study of 681 persons found that people who receive Communion as often as daily are not at higher risk of infection compared with persons who do not receive communion or persons who do not attend Christian church services at all.
In summary, the risk for infectious disease transmission by a common communion cup is very low, and appropriate safeguards – that is, wiping the interior and exterior rim between communicants, use of care to rotate the cloth during use, and use of a clean cloth for each service – would further diminish this risk.”

 

[Nepenthe]

Not only does it take that high an amount of ethanol for actual antimicrobial effect, it also takes a good long soak, no kidding. It’s a very good idea for the parish to keep an eye on the CDC and WHO, just in case! (Actually, in my opinion, everyone should, at least at a basic level - my family are bioresearchers and my father an immunologist, so I actually do have a clue what I’m talking about.)

Just saying, be cautious, and especially if you have Herpes Simplex 1, or feel like a cold or flu is coming on. Hm…are there any recourses to taking communion wine NOT from the common chalice in such cases? The world is so small now, and outbreaks can be so fast, there ought to be. I realize the chances are low, but they are there, and they are no-kidding dangerous to the young, elderly and sickly. And yes, I do understand the meaning of drinking from the common cup, but there must be a way to still do this right - perhaps sterile dippers for those who wish to participate yet cannot take upon themselves or would not give the risk to others? Hm yes…even for a small parish, one separate chalice and some autoclaved spoons would be a help for those who worry. Only a suggestion…no intent to offend in any way at all, just an intent to protect those at risk.

 

[DeeC]

To me that’s the equivalent of walking into traffic blindfolded and saying “If it’s not my time I won’t die.”

That said, I receive from the chalice because I know of no instance of serious disease transmission to date. When I’m contagious, be it a cold, a cold sore (no one wants herpes) or cracked lips (possibility of blood contamination) I limit myself to receiving a Host.

 

[PhilotheaZ]

Hm…are there any recourses to taking communion wine NOT from the common chalice in such cases? The world is so small now, and outbreaks can be so fast, there ought to be. I realize the chances are low, but they are there, and they are no-kidding dangerous to the young, elderly and sickly. And yes, I do understand the meaning of drinking from the common cup, but there must be a way to still do this right - perhaps sterile dippers for those who wish to participate yet cannot take upon themselves or would not give the risk to others? Hm yes…even for a small parish, one separate chalice and some autoclaved spoons would be a help for those who worry. Only a suggestion…no intent to offend in any way at all, just an intent to protect those at risk.

There’s no need for any special procedures. If you are sick, or if you are susceptible to illness, or if you have a weak immune system, or have any concern, simply do not receive from the chalice. The entire Body and Blood of Christ is present under either form, either the consecrated bread or the consecrated wine. You really are not missing out on anything.

As for individual spoons, etc., it would be a nightmare to make sure that drops of the Precious Blood are not inadvertently dropped anywhere and to try to purify hundreds of sterile dippers, spoons, etc. in the sacrarium.

Intinction is an option, where the PRIEST (not the communicant or lay minister) dips the host into the chalice for each person.