Gerry Matatics

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Windmill:
I have to admit, I have really been confused by the whole Matatics controversy.

It seems to me that there are things that are not being said - whether out of politeness or because it would look bad in the eyes of Protestants.

I came back to the Faith via **Karl Keating **and Scott Hahn. They are almost like father-figures to me: guiding me and assuring me of what I can and cannot stand on in good faith.

I have looked all over the Net for Matatics and his reliability. Those that defend him tend to stand on “legal talk” to justify his communion with JPII. They go into elaborate explanations to dance around some very obvious differences he has.

I just wish there could be an honest debate with Hahn, Keating, Matatics, and others (eg. Staples, Sungenis, Madrid…) to discuss their concerns.

It would help to end a lot of confusion.

Rich
I did the same but used ALL of them and some others such as
Mark Shea
David Palm
Dave Armstrong
Fr Hardon
Isiah Bennett
David Currie
Fr Most
and some Oldies:
Bp Geo Hay
Hellair Belloc
Orestes Brownson
Fulton Sheen
Children of Fatima-especially
Clement
Irenaeus
Re:
"I just wish there could be an honest debate with Hahn, Keating, Matatics, and others (eg. Staples, Sungenis, Madrid…) to discuss their concerns. "

I really don’t believe it would accomplish anything. There is a wide diversity in their convictions on modern/traditional church practice, personal behavior and discipline. They have all stated their cases abundantly. From those, you’l have to decide for yourself. An example would be head covering for women in church to JPII’s Assisi prayer meeting to veiling Church doctrine to entice prot’s (which has not worked) to resurrecting the Old Covenant as salvific for Jews. (They never say which Covenant, Abraham’s (forever) or Mosaic (destroyed by Christ).
Nevertheless, there are some old debates between them via the internet chat/email format.
Gal 4:
16 Am I then become your enemy, because I tell you the truth? 17 They are zealous in your regard not well: but they would exclude you, that you might be zealous for them. 18 But be zealous for that which is good in a good thing always: and not only when I am present with you.
1Thess 5:
19 Extinguish not the spirit. 20 Despise not prophecies. 21 But prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22 From all appearance of evil refrain yourselves.

Today confusion prevails …until you go back to the old teachers, popes and apologists. That is what I did. And confusion dissapated and continuity prevailed…
 
From what I’ve read, Gerry Matatics reminds me an awful lot of the great second/third century apologist Tertullian, who converted to the Faith in middle life and wrote really sparkling and influential apologetics; but he was always a rigorist, and gradually moved over towards prohibiting things allowed by the Church (like remarriage after the death of a spouse). In the end, he joined the Montanist group, who were much more severe in matters of discipline like that, as well as claiming extra spiritual gifts, and spent the remainder of his life attacking the Church as having abandoned its mission. (See newadvent.org/cathen/14520c.htm
for the Catholic Encyclopedia entry on him.)

I’m not accusing Gerry Matatics of heresy: but his gradual movement towards rigorism and rejection of any magisterial teaching he sees as liberal is worrying. I know how he feels, mind you: as a convert from Evangelical Protestantism, I’m also horrified at much that goes on in the Church today, and yearn towards the TLM and ‘traditional’ Catholicism. But I can also see the illogic of the position which claims to be more Catholic than the Pope - and that’s precisely what Tertullian did.

Sue
 
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Teresita:
From what I’ve read, Gerry Matatics reminds me an awful lot of the great second/third century apologist Tertullian, who converted to the Faith in middle life and wrote really sparkling and influential apologetics;… But I can also see the illogic of the position which claims to be more Catholic than the Pope - and that’s precisely what Tertullian did.
Sue
A great precautionary example. There is always the risk of “slipping over the breach”.
RE:
“more Catholic than the pope…”
Today the problem arises: which pope? The one that wrote Mortalium Animos or the one that wrote Ut unum Sint. Nearly irreconcilable.
Same with Guadium et Spes vs Pascendi and the Syllabus of Errors.
ps. Thanks for your supportive comment on the TLM.
 
HEY PEOPLE ABOVE ACTUALLY READ MY POST!!! I SAID IF GERRY MATATICS SAID THAT THE NW RITE DIDNT FULFILL ONE’S ABLIGATION THEN I WOULD ARGUE HE IS NOT IN GOOD STANDING–BECAUSE HE WOULD HAVE TO ADVOCATE HAT THE GO ALLOWED A TRANSLATION APROVED BY ROME THAT HAS LED CATHOLIUCS INTO MATIERAL IDOLATRY—NOTICE I SAID “IF”
 
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TNT:
Here’s how you “get a Life” :

I don’t believe Gerry M. is holding out for “pro multis”, otherwise his answer to Karl would have the qualification of having the NOM in Latin, which uses that phrase.
NO ONE in authority has pronounced Gerry M. “not in good standing with the Church”. It is really not our place to make that call. We can criticize his positions and reasons, but no further.

He never said the NOM is INvalid. He just said it would be sinful for him to receive communion at the NOM. I do not agree with him on this as I have done it many times. But if one’s conscience will not dispose of all doubt, we are not to act in that doubt, until it is resolved. He uses a valid alternative which is the indult TLM, where he has no doubt of conscience.
However, I do not believe the NOM is the best the Church could do in it’s Worship of the Holy Trinity or in the catechesis of the Faithful in the Truths o f their Catholic faith.
Both Cain and Abel believed they offered a valid sacrifice. At least something was given as a sacrifice. But somewhere there was a deciding difference in God’s eyes.
Finally
About half or more of Gerry. M.'s efforts are towards converting others to the Catholic Church, not debating internals of the VatII church. I give him credit for his success in converting others outside.
Once again, TNT…well puthttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon14.gif
 
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Windmill:
I have to admit, I have really been confused by the whole Matatics controversy.

It seems to me that there are things that are not being said - whether out of politeness or because it would look bad in the eyes of Protestants.

I came back to the Faith via Karl Keating and Scott Hahn. They are almost like father-figures to me: guiding me and assuring me of what I can and cannot stand on in good faith.

I have looked all over the Net for Matatics and his reliability. Those that defend him tend to stand on “legal talk” to justify his communion with JPII. They go into elaborate explanations to dance around some very obvious differences he has.

I just wish there could be an honest debate with Hahn, Keating, Matatics, and others (eg. Staples, Sungenis, Madrid…) to discuss their concerns.

It would help to end a lot of confusion.

Rich
\

I think it is safe to say that only Sungenis, Matatics, and perhaps Madrid would be willing. Hahn would be a tossup. Staples, Keating etc (I think) have burned thier bridges.
 
Karl Keating:
I don’t think I ever asked Gerry precisely whether he thinks the Novus Ordo fulfills one’s Sunday obligation. I did ask him a related question, though, and I asked it on more than one occasion over a period of some years, to see if his answer had changed. It hadn’t.

I asked whether he would receive Communion at a Novus Ordo Mass that was celebrated strictly according to the rubrics by a priest who was in the state of grace and who celebrated with the proper intentions. Gerry said he would NOT receive Communion at such a Mass because he thought it would be sinful to do so.
How would you answer your question?
 
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marineboy:
HEY PEOPLE ABOVE ACTUALLY READ MY POST!!! I SAID IF GERRY MATATICS SAID THAT THE NW RITE DIDNT FULFILL ONE’S OBLIGATION THEN I WOULD ARGUE HE IS NOT IN GOOD STANDING–BECAUSE HE WOULD HAVE TO ADVOCATE THAT THE GOD ALLOWED A TRANSLATION APROVED BY ROME THAT HAS LED ** (PUT)** CATHOLIUCS INTO MATIERAL IDOLATRY—NOTICE I SAID “IF”
Good point. And Gerry never said it either.
So, the case is rested.
 
well. according to karl keating he said " that it does it (missal of Paul VI) doesnt fulfill one’s obligation—if its a valid Mass why doesnt it fulfill one’s obligation—this is assuming karl is correct—
 
But I can also see the illogic of the position which claims to be more Catholic than the Pope - and that’s precisely what Tertullian did.
Answer this question for me, please. Who was more Catholic in the following examples:

Year: AD 1377

Pope Gregory XI - Pope in Avignon
OR
St. Catherine of Siena?

Year: (1492-) 1503
Pope Alexander VI (with mistress and illegitimate children)
OR
St. John of God?

Hm… sounds to me like in at least some circumstances that non-Popes are MUCH more Catholic than the Pope (I assume St. Anthanasius need not even be brought up, let alone Pope Honorius, who was condemned as an heretic by the Sixth General Council).

If the Pope is not fulfilling his duty as Supreme Pastor over all men, then certainly some holy people will be “more Catholic than the Pope”, especially in such a case where said Pope is condemned as an heretic…
 
corection on my earlier post=karl didnt say that gerry said the new order of the mass didnt fulfill one’s obligi\ation–he said Gerry said that hewouldnt recieve communion because it is sinful–(at a novus ordo mass)–i dunno what to make of that–how could it be sinful if its the Real Presence?
 
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EENS:
Answer this question for me, please. Who was more Catholic in the following examples:

Year: AD 1377

Pope Gregory XI - Pope in Avignon
OR
St. Catherine of Siena?

Year: (1492-) 1503
Pope Alexander VI (with mistress and illegitimate children)
OR
St. John of God?

Hm… sounds to me like in at least some circumstances that non-Popes are MUCH more Catholic than the Pope (I assume St. Anthanasius need not even be brought up, let alone Pope Honorius, who was condemned as an heretic by the Sixth General Council).

If the Pope is not fulfilling his duty as Supreme Pastor over all men, then certainly some holy people will be “more Catholic than the Pope”, especially in such a case where said Pope is condemned as an heretic…
The interesting thing is that these holy men and women would never dare to say that someone was holier than the Pope!
 
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marineboy:
corection on my earlier post=karl didnt say that gerry said the new order of the mass didnt fulfill one’s obligi\ation–he said Gerry said that hewouldnt recieve communion because it is sinful–(at a novus ordo mass)–i dunno what to make of that–how could it be sinful if its the Real Presence?
Not hard at all. As an extreme example:
A clown mass can consecrate the Real Presence, but it is offensive to pius ears and to God. Attending it and condoning it by receiving communion would be to me, sinful.
A Liturgical ritual can be true, yet be ambiguous at best and sacriligous at worst.
 
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TNT:
Not hard at all. As an extreme example:
A clown mass can consecrate the Real Presence, but it is offensive to pius ears and to God. Attending it and condoning it by receiving communion would be to me, sinful.
A Liturgical ritual can be true, yet be ambiguous at best and sacriligous at worst.
My hypothetical to Gerry posited a reverently celebrated Mass, perfrectly in accord with the rubrics and done by a devout and properly-intentioned priest–thus there would be nothing “offensive to pious ears [or] to God.” But Gerry still said it would be a sin for him to receive Communion at such a Mass.
 
Karl Keating:
My hypothetical to Gerry posited a reverently celebrated Mass, perfrectly in accord with the rubrics and done by a devout and properly-intentioned priest–thus there would be nothing “offensive to pious ears [or] to God.” But Gerry still said it would be a sin for him to receive Communion at such a Mass.
The only point I would have added would be “in latin” to expunge the “pro-omnibus” argument.
But, even then I would suggest his answer would be the same.
He must see something else in the rubrics or the prayers, maybe one of the offertory versions. Someday I shall ask him WHY, exactly. I believe he is coming into my area in the fall. I’ll narrow it down if I get to speak to him.
My early speculation is one or more points of ambiguity.
Thanks.
…for ALL you do.
 
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TNT:
Not hard at all. As an extreme example:
A clown mass can consecrate the Real Presence, but it is offensive to pius ears and to God. Attending it and condoning it by receiving communion would be to me, sinful.
A Liturgical ritual can be true, yet be ambiguous at best and sacriligous at worst.
That wasn’t the question that Mr. Keating asked though so it would seem that it’s silly to try to use an “if” scenario since this was not the one presented. The question was:
I asked whether he would receive Communion at a Novus Ordo Mass that was celebrated strictly according to the rubrics by a priest who was in the state of grace and who celebrated with the proper intentions. Gerry said he would NOT receive Communion at such a Mass because he thought it would be sinful to do so.
In this scenario Mr. Keating supplied, it would seem that the only reason that it would be a sin is if Mr. Mattatics thought he was in a state of mortal sin. Now you can go ahead and assume that this is what Mr. Mattatics was thinking but then you’d realllllllllllllyyyyyyyyyy be stretching it. Mr. Mattatics can doubt and speculate all he wants but it does not make it sinful to receive Communion at such a Mass described above. Mr. Keating is no dummy and he asked a very specific question to which, surprisingly, Mr. Mattatics answered honestly. I’ll give this to him since most people will just allude to or imply what he said.
 
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TNT:
The only point I would have added would be “in latin” to expunge the “pro-omnibus” argument.
But, even then I would suggest his answer would be the same.
He must see something else in the rubrics or the prayers, maybe one of the offertory versions. Someday I shall ask him WHY, exactly. I believe he is coming into my area in the fall. I’ll narrow it down if I get to speak to him.
My early speculation is one or more points of ambiguity.
Thanks.
…for ALL you do.
See but now we’re moving in to private interpretation, judgment, revelation, etc. which are not Catholic.
 
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bear06:
See but now we’re moving in to private interpretation, judgment, revelation, etc. which are not Catholic.
Got to bed…that’s an order!!!
When you respond with only 1 sentence, you’re out of steam.

BTW:

The 1962 epistle today was about Susanna…Daniel 13… voluptous, and seductions, lust, and soooo much more. By the time he got half way thru it, I wanted to take the wife to the back seat of the car.
Some of that OT is hot.
Then came little child Daniel, and made the judges of Susanna separate and give eyewitness accounts, found them lying, and had them cut in 2.
Gotta love the OT. My kinda book.
 
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EENS:
Answer this question for me, please. Who was more Catholic in the following examples:

Year: AD 1377

Pope Gregory XI - Pope in Avignon
OR
St. Catherine of Siena?

Year: (1492-) 1503
Pope Alexander VI (with mistress and illegitimate children)
OR
St. John of God?

Hm… sounds to me like in at least some circumstances that non-Popes are MUCH more Catholic than the Pope (I assume St. Anthanasius need not even be brought up, let alone Pope Honorius, who was condemned as an heretic by the Sixth General Council).

If the Pope is not fulfilling his duty as Supreme Pastor over all men, then certainly some holy people will be “more Catholic than the Pope”, especially in such a case where said Pope is condemned as an heretic…
You are misreading the historical and theological situation here, though it’s tempting to do so, I admit!

Historical: in both cases, the Pope was doing something unpleasing to God. Avignon, where the popes (all French at that point) had set up the papal court, was not Rome: it was a case of the absentee bishop (a scourge of the middle ages, and something not fully put right, despite Trent, till the late eighteenth century) on a huge scale. Alexander VI was living an immoral life, with mistresses, illegitimate children and so on (I think it was he who, on being elected to his position, said: “God has given us the Papacy: let us enjoy it!” Popes, being human, sin: some more so than others. St Peter himself was, you’ll recall (Protestants throw it up at us enough!), scolded by St Paul for hypocrisy - having eaten with Gentiles initially, he pretended he hadn’t when the Jerusalem mob paid him a visit in Antioch. And there are innumerable cases where Popes have been gravely sinful. In those cases, any one of the faithful may be called by God to rebuke the sinner: though it’s generally a saint who is so called(perhaps on the grounds that anyone else would become so puffed up by pride that it would imperil their salvation…I think Savonarola might fall into that category, but that’s going off at a tangent).

Theological: in neither of the cases you adduce - and in no other similar ones in my recollection - were those who challenged the Pope calling into question their teaching. Poor Gregory knew what he had to do, but he was terrified to do it (rightly, in human terms: he did die shortly after returning to Rome); St Catherine gave him backbone. Alexander was, as Ronald Knox points out, in a position to change his whole way of life, just as St Thomas Becket did when made Archbishop of Canterbury: he didn’t, and may well be suffering for it for eternity, but at no point did he teach heresy. And after all, if you believe that the Church, with the Pope at the head of the College of Bishops, teaches infallibly, and that the gates of Hell won’t prevail against her, then you have to have the courage of those convictions, and grant that the Church, necessarily including the Pope, will not teach heresy.

Please don’t bring up St Robert Bellarmine at this point: he tackled the hypothetical question of whether a pope could be a heretic, and answered in the affirmative - but since we know, by the Vatican I dogmatic definition, that a pope is protected from teaching heresy when speaking ex cathedra, presumably a pope’s heretical teaching, like that of John XXII on the Beatific Vision, which can only take place when he acts as a private teacher, will never impact permanently on the faith of the whole church. This means that (for instance) the 1969 rite of Mass, while one may believe that it’s not a patch on the TLM, cannot be invalid. Indeed Archbishop Lefebvre taught that quite emphatically in the early days: he said a lot of very nasty things about it, but always maintained that it was valid. The SSPX still say that, though they hedge it around with so many qualifications (the last thing I read from - I think - Richard Williamson said that it was valid but objectively evil, though I can’t remember how he reached that conclusion) that this means very little.

To sum up: it is possible to be holier than a pope; it is possible to have far more of a sense of the faith than a pope; it is even possible to teach more acceptably than a pope. It isn’t, however, possible to be more Catholic than a pope in his role of infallible decision-maker.

Sue
 
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