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Cobbfmly
Guest
Vouchers do not give every parent a choice. I have never seen a voucher program or proposal that provides enough additional funds to disabled children to cover the additional costs of educating them.
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Shin
Guest
In public schools you are forbidden to mention or teach about Christ, in your day to day work with students. And yet you do not think public schools are anti-Christian and Satanic? . . . How many fools the devil makes!I think that’s ridiculous. . . And I think school is primarily for studying and would stand up against a teacher who said abstinence was stupid just as much as I would a teacher who told students of other faiths (in a public school) that they were going to hell. But I don’t think painting public schools with a broad brush and focusing on legalism really helps the cause of Christ. Last I check, He actually warned us against that
And this is the state of education today, where the simplest truths of the Christian faith have been lost to ‘legalism’ and disability arguments.
Lord, where have your people gone?
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sanctamaria17
Guest
Wow, because it’s so charitable to call us all fools
No, teachers are just not allowed to influence students or pressure students who, for whatever reason, do not believe. School is for studying. PERIOD. In a public school, where students are of different faiths and backgrounds, all their parents want for them is to be learning math. Students can pray to God on their own and of course, fellow students can and should be an example. I went to public school and a Christian girl in my grade ended up being an example for me.
I find that kids who are going to stray will stray anyway if that’s what they really want. The kids who are well formed in their faith AND choose it later on will be strong enough wherever they go.
By the way, the two greatest commandments in the Christian faith are to love God and love others. You love God through loving others and vice versa. I don’t see that lacking in public schools. I knew a lot of teachers who either were devout or expressed respect and admiration for those of us students who stood for our faith. And I went to a public school in a very liberal state. And the kids who choose wrong paths do the same in Catholic schools. Mostly, it has to do with the parents neglecting their kids and that happens in poor communities as well as ones of affluence. Also, there are some kids for whom it really doesn’t matter what their parents say or do. They tend to have to learn the hard way.
Though if you really assert that public schools are the den of Satan, does that mean I can tell people I’ve already been to Hell? I think God’s just going to ask whether people raised their children for Him to the best of their ability. Otherwise, that means a lot of people who either don’t have a Catholic school, can’t afford it, can’t afford to stay home and homeschool, but want their kids to be educated (and well, it’s the law) are going to Hell. And that would be a very sad thing, not to mention I would question if the Lord was truly merciful and against legalism as the Bible says He is.
No, teachers are just not allowed to influence students or pressure students who, for whatever reason, do not believe. School is for studying. PERIOD. In a public school, where students are of different faiths and backgrounds, all their parents want for them is to be learning math. Students can pray to God on their own and of course, fellow students can and should be an example. I went to public school and a Christian girl in my grade ended up being an example for me.
I find that kids who are going to stray will stray anyway if that’s what they really want. The kids who are well formed in their faith AND choose it later on will be strong enough wherever they go.
By the way, the two greatest commandments in the Christian faith are to love God and love others. You love God through loving others and vice versa. I don’t see that lacking in public schools. I knew a lot of teachers who either were devout or expressed respect and admiration for those of us students who stood for our faith. And I went to a public school in a very liberal state. And the kids who choose wrong paths do the same in Catholic schools. Mostly, it has to do with the parents neglecting their kids and that happens in poor communities as well as ones of affluence. Also, there are some kids for whom it really doesn’t matter what their parents say or do. They tend to have to learn the hard way.
Though if you really assert that public schools are the den of Satan, does that mean I can tell people I’ve already been to Hell? I think God’s just going to ask whether people raised their children for Him to the best of their ability. Otherwise, that means a lot of people who either don’t have a Catholic school, can’t afford it, can’t afford to stay home and homeschool, but want their kids to be educated (and well, it’s the law) are going to Hell. And that would be a very sad thing, not to mention I would question if the Lord was truly merciful and against legalism as the Bible says He is.
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Joseph_L_Varga
Guest
Also, will they teach my kids in the sex ed class, how to put condoms on bananas? That they shouldn’t worry about HIV/AIDS, HPV and the other nasty stuff, just use “safer sex” with condoms? That the Pope is a religious bigot when he says that condoms won’t solve the AIDS epidemic in Africa? Thank you, I don’t want any of these for my kids. And I haven’t even talked about public school teachers taking 8 year old kids to field trips at lesbian “wedding” ceremonies.In public schools you are forbidden to mention or teach about Christ, in your day to day work with students. And yet you do not think public schools are anti-Christian and Satanic? . . . How many fools the devil makes!
And this is the state of education today, where the simplest truths of the Christian faith have been lost to ‘legalism’ and disability arguments.
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sanctamaria17
Guest
That is true. Many public schools at least have a special ed program with aides and everything. Many private schools cannot. I’ve seen enough threads on here about families trying to send their kids with special needs to Catholic schools, only to find that the schools could not or would not accept them, due to lack of resources. Public schools have to provide something.
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pnewton
Guest
Yes. However, I do not think that because every child can not be given a choice, no child should be. Policy does not have to include all and no government program ever has. All those who push for a voucher program want is just distribution of funds. It is unjust that parents who desire a religious education pay double for education: once throught the tax system and once through tuition.
Vouchers should not be full. As you mentioned, there will always be special needs that must be addressed that cost considerabley more. We should all be contribuiting to supporting the disabled.
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Col40
Guest
What most people don’t know is that the schools target programs like sports, music, arts when it comes cuts because that plays on the sympathy of the tax payers/parents and makes it look like school tax cuts or refusal to propose a raise in taxes by a Board of Education is punishing the children. But the reality is, the money being raised isn’t for programs…
Most public schools have little budget oversight—no matter what anyone claims. And when they do get held accountable, they immediately target “hot button” programs for cuts.
No–your attitude is NOT unCatholic from the standpoint that public schools should be held accountable, rather than given a blank check mandate.
Homeschooling—I don’t 100% agree on that, but I respect that as a parental choice, and believe if there were a voucher program, homeschooling families should be allotted a certain amount in order to cover education issues they can’t at home.
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Col40
Guest
I think some of the posters here are extremely naive when it comes to how much public schools are pushing liberal agendas. I’m not sure what state you live in, but here in NY State, Albany keeps cutting more and more of the very little funding Catholic/private schools get, keeps putting in more and more regulations on what Catholic institutions have to offer/do–even if it flies in the face of all that we hold sacred. And claim it’s because, since it’s “tax payer money, we can’t support ‘religious’ beliefs.” Yet, our tax dollars pay for a state of the art school in NYC that is for GAY LESBIAN AND TRANSGENDERED youth–so that they can be “safe” and “free from persecution”.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvey_Milk_High_School
Yes…and vouchers are “unfair”??? Give me a break…
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Lujack
Guest
I’m glad that you’re rejoicing. Meanwhile, my father the supervisor is agonizing over the fact that he’ll have to fire somebody, my mother the secretary is anxious that she might lose her job, I’m concerned that I might have to switch colleges, and kids are going to get less of an education.
I think you’re attitude is dreadfully uncatholic, I think its disgusting, and I think its insane. These are people’s lives. I think you have zero empathy for anyone.
Keep on rejoicing in others misery, knucklehead.
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Col40
Guest
Do your parents work for a public school and that’s why you took offense to that poster’s view? Or are you just reiterating that the economy stinks for everyone? If it’s that your parents work for public schools and the budget may require cutting some fat–well, that’s not just in public schools—that’s everywhere! ALL OF US are in fear each day of losing a job…not just you and your family. And to be honest, I have YET to see a school actually cut a program that benefits students—they’re used as pawns. Public school funding seems to be untouched—somehow–outrageous budgets get passed year after year because teachers’ unions cry about how it hurts the kids–when they’re not exactly willing to give up a little to say, contribute to their own health care? Meanwhile, Catholic schools are closing at an alarming rate. We could have vouchers or tax breaks–but SELFISH teachers’ unions lobby lily-livered politicians to vote against anything that may make it easier for families to choose a Catholic or private education.
And I don’t think that the poster was rejoicing in misery of others–I think that the poster was making a valid point about how much fat there is in public school systems.
And I don’t think calling someone a knucklehead for expressing a view that’s different from your own is constructive either.
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Col40
Guest
I don’t think anyone is suggesting that…I think what most posters here are expressing is that vouchers give everyone a CHOICE. Right now, we pay taxes that only allow for one option–public schools. And many of those public schools have taken on an attitude that Christian/Catholic beliefs are “intolerant”—i.e. views on homosexuality, premarital sex, birth control, abortion…and that is being taught in class, along side with reading, writing, and arithmetic. And there are teachers who push those agendas, while others that, say, standup for life, are considered “bigotted”. I taught CCD for years and I had a student one time who said that his social teacher told the class that “in God we Trust” shouldn’t be on money because it offends athethiest.
Vouchers would allow more families to opt for Catholic education—or really any education they saw fit. It would put control back in ALL parents hands–rather than just those who can afford the increasing cost of Catholic education.
Public schools today aren’t the same as when I attended one. More and more liberal agendas are being pushed through the system. Even in some states, teachers have had issues because their unions are telling them who they have to vote for! This is not democracy!
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Lujack
Guest
Outrageous budgets pass year after year? Where I live, the public of the next town over needs new desks, but they won’t get them because they haven’t passed a budget this century. Public school funding in Jersey is not untouched, it was gutted even when the economy was good. Similarly, the state borrowed against the pension plan of teachers, and now its doubtful that teachers will get much of that at all.
I feel the pain of Catholic schools closing, but where I live, that wave already hit. With one or two exceptions, the Catholic schools that are open will stay open (Mater Dei in Monmouth County faces declining attendance, and Hudson Catholic is constantly on the ropes, but beat the executioner this year and might make it; a lot of the other Catholic schools are doing pretty well).
He rejoices in school closings! That is rejoicing in the misery of others. What if someone came on here and said that they rejoiced when Catholic schools close?
Let’s face it, other than the Catholic schools, some very expensive secular private schools, and your occasional Protestant-affiliated/Jewish-affiliated school, there aren’t many private schools out there. If town high schools go under, where do the kids go?
In the sports conference I played in during high school, there were forty-five schools. Only five of them were Catholic schools, and one of them was an extremely expensive all-boys school that most people can never dream of being able to afford, and most people would never want to go there, either. The Catholic high school I went to was the only one in a county that had twenty other high schools.
We were thriving, yes, and they won’t be in any danger of closing any time soon, but if even one of those twenty schools closed, we would never in a million years be able to expand fast enough to take on the influx of students. Where do they go?
When a school closes, a conservative estimate has at least thirty people losing their jobs. Rejoicing in that definitely makes you a knucklehead; it is never a cause for rejoicing when people lose their jobs and kids lose their school and have no place to go.
Again, what if a fundamentalist came on here rejoicing at the death of a Catholic school?
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Col40
Guest
Fundamentalists? Please—we have a state government in NY and an administration and Congress in Washington that seems to be rejoicing in providing constant blows to any Catholic institution.
The point you keep missing—Public schools are not quality products. They are not held accountable by those providing money to them for doing a good job in all areas. They promote views that are not in line with what many of those who pay for these schools believe, and yet tax dollars are denied to Catholic/private schools based on the same argument.
I don’t know about NJ–but I know in NY state, if there was so much as a penny taken from the teacher pension fund—it would be a trial lawyers’ field day! Meanwhile, the rest of our 401Ks are going down the tube and our health insurance rates go up–while our taxes continue to rise to pay for attracting the “best and the brightest”–which they really aren’t. The most powerful, politically influential lobbyist in Albany are representing teachers’ unions. We had a chance three years ago to get tax credits for sending our kids to private schools (or for any educational needs–like tutoring,etc.). The teachers union successfully fought to make sure that didn’t pass.
You know what—with this economy–everyone else seems to be tightening their belt EXCEPT government run operations, including public schools. Companies are going out of businesses. In this area, Catholic schools are closing left and right. Why SHOULDN’T public schools feel the same pinch as the rest of us!
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Lujack
Guest
I never hear anyone rejoicing at the demise of a Catholic school, even when the old Jersey City Catholic schools went down in the 1990’s, but I might have just missed it.
They are quality products in the parts of New Jersey where they can get the money. For example, the district where I live is terrific in many ways; class sizes are small, test scores are high, facilities are good, teachers are pretty well qualified. That’s because there was a time when the district was able to pass budgets, and because it spans four town, generally somebody passes a budget to keep it running. The next town over, though, can’t buy desks. Obviously, if they have no money, they won’t be a quality product.
If we put the effort into them, we can make them quality products.
Well, here in Jersey, the state borrowed millions of dollars against the pension, never paid it back, and then uses the ridiculous amount of money that they borrowed to argue that teachers are overpaid and so shouldn’t get their money (it is an enormous number, but they borrowed it over fifteen years and well into the future). Some of the teachers whose pensions they want to cut are already retired and can’t really go back to work. The state has better PR, though.
Because if Shore Town Regional Catholic School closes, the kids can go to Hometown Public School. If Nowhere Near A Catholic School High goes under, though, where do the kids go?
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Col40
Guest
OK–there you have it—the teacher’s union argument. If a school is not good enough–throw more tax payer money at it! And if a Catholic school closes, while by golly, there’s a public school—let those kids go there—heck, we can deprogram them from all their Catholic school values teachings and let them know it’s OK to have sex, just wear a condom, and if it breaks and she gets pregnant, by golly, just get rid of it! Mom and dad don’t even have to know!
Effort into public schools? The only effort I see is “let’s throw more money at the problem.” Many Catholic schools perform better with much less.
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Lujack
Guest
Yeah, if the school is not good enough, fix it. If we applied your logic to highways, we’d never fix potholes. Every time one appears, we’d just build a new highway.
Every town has a public school. Not every town has a Catholic school. If a town that has no Catholic school anywhere near it closes its public school, where do the kids in that town go to school?And if a Catholic school closes, while by golly, there’s a public school—let those kids go there—heck, we can deprogram them from all their Catholic school values teachings and let them know it’s OK to have sex, just wear a condom, and if it breaks and she gets pregnant, by golly, just get rid of it! Mom and dad don’t even have to know!
Lastly, you have no idea what most public schools are teaching. First of all, even if they were trying to deprogram them from Catholic morality, no public school student takes enough health to actually do so. Secondly, though, you’re badly misrepresenting the health curriculum, at least for New Jersey public schools. I’ve seen that (even though I myself went to a Catholic high school), and even when it briefly (as in a total of about two classes) deals with condoms, it certainly doesn’t promote them in any way, shape or form. It also doesn’t say a word about abortion, so I have no idea where you’re coming from on that one.
How else would you put effort into public schools? Every solution requires money, and cutting the budget will not make things better, especially if they can’t buy desks for the building. Fixing potholes requires money, but no one ever describes that as throwing money at the problem.
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Col40
Guest
My logic? You don’t even GET my logic. I’ve never said close public schools, build only Catholic schools. What I and most of the posters (save for a few) are suggesting is VOUCHERS so that we as parents can decide where to send our kids to school. You tell me what’s logical about the fact that a school district that my children do not attend, WILL NEVER attend, gets $20,000/year for my kids? They receive no services (not even BUSSING), we have to pay for book fees, etc…and we pay our tuition. Why should I have to pay taxes and tuition so that my children can be educated in an environment that I feel is the best?? Better yet, why should TAX PAYERS have to foot the bill for education for children who are not recieving it from the school district? Rather than tax based on a districts census of school age children, why not budget/tax based what services children actually receive from the school districts—meaning if they are enrolled, budget based on that. If they attend private schools and receive bussing or receive occupational services from a district, charge only for that?
Too many school districts I know waste money—one school district has a roof falling in, and yet they spent money that could have been used to fix the roof building a state of the art baseball diamond and putting up a multi-million dollar sign out front. The district I live in is being investigated for fraud/'mismanagement on several levels–the now “retired” superintendant was charging personal travel on the district credit card, the bookkeepers hadn’t updated records in years so that deceased retirees were still getting paid benefits.
And yea, I do have an idea of what schools are teaching—maybe the health class itself just grazes over the notion of “safe sex” but outside of the classroom, through either Planned Parenthood’s presence in schools, condoms in bathrooms, pamphlets, Gay days, what have you–not to forget the number of times schools have made it clear “it’s called HOLIDAY celebrations, not Christmas”–anti-Catholic messages are everywhere. Catholic taxpayers should be outraged that this is what our tax dollars pay for, as Catholic schools around us close.
Take these problems, coupled with parents with poor attitudes, kids who don’t care to learn, an assortment of other issues that are interred in public school mentalities–how is throwing more money at the problem going to fix those issues? When you throw money at fixing a pot hole, the pot hole gets fixed—public schools never seem to improve, they just ask for more and deliver less!
While no one is suggesting your precious public schools to close, should they be immune to what the rest of the world is facing right now? If budgets get cut, jobs are lost–welcome to the real world that those of us who CAN’T raise taxes have to face! The kids only suffer because the adults in charge of the candy jar want to keep what ever is left for themselves.
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PaulinVA
Guest
COL40, If everyone gets vouchers to send their kids where they want, answer the following-
- How do any of the schools/school systems plan for budgets on a five year cycle when they never know how many pupils they will have in any given year?
- How about conscience? There is no way, quite frankly, that I want the local Saudi academy to be able to receive vouchers.
- I don’t have a kid, give me MY voucher so I can go back to school.
- In this world of school choice, who provides for the disabled and special needs?
- School buses? Are you expecting the state to provide busing as well?
- How do small, poor districts who get a lot of state money handle vouchers? They have no where else to go.
- Please cite a major or medium sized school district where vouchers have been universally available to all students and the idea has worked.
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Lujack
Guest
Because if we don’t all pay for public education, we couldn’t afford to run the schools. The ones who absolutely need it the most, who can’t afford Catholic school/aren’t Catholic, cannot support schools on their own. We should pay because it helps others; that’s why even when my parents were kids, and both of them were going to Catholic schools, and both of my grandparents were teaching in Catholic schools, my grandparents went out and voted for the public school budgets, because they knew people needed it.
Is it fair that even though I and my brothers went to Catholic schools, that our parents paid taxes for the public schools? No, it isn’t. But what makes fairness the most important thing? We need to do what’s right. That’s the paramount concern, and fairness, while important, must always be secondary to justice.
Dead on. Why? Booster clubs will pay for baseball diamonds and the PTA will help raise money for a sign. Parents will storm to the school board if the football team goes 0-10, but they won’t do so if the history textbooks are outdated. This don’t fit the sign, so much, but there is a public will to do things with regards to high school athletics, and not one with regards to the not-so-little things that actually make a school run.
How is that an indictment of the public school system? There was a big case near my house in the past five years where a priest was embezzling from the church collections. Is that an indictment of the Catholic Church?
Never encountered either of these, although I’ve heard of the first one elsewhere. The second one is inconceivable in schools near me. The schools don’t put condoms in the bathrooms.
What sort of pamphlets?
When do schools celebrate “Gay days”? Unless you’re referring to the “day of silence”, which has to do with not beating, killing, and harassing gays, and is pretty much grassroots anyways? People wore those armbands at my Catholic high school, and stayed silent all day. Although I didn’t participate, there’s nothing immoral the day of silence.
It is our fault that Catholic schools closed, because we don’t make the sacrifices to keep them open. The public school system has nothing to do with the fact that we failed to support our Catholic schools. All we can do there is vow to do better next time; we can’t blame the government for the fact that we didn’t rally around schools in trouble.
They are always asking for more because no one gives them what they ask for! They don’t get better facilities and books, they get more tests! They don’t get (name removed by moderator)ut on the curriculum, they get an outside “expert” who hasn’t set foot in a classroom telling them what to do!
Instead of fixing the pothole like the schools and teachers ask for, we toss them a board and put it over the pothole. It might be a high-quality, expensive board, but it will still snap when a car drives by. Then, when the public schools say “Hey, we still need to fix the pothole!”, people respond that we can’t keep throwing money at the problem.
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Lujack
Guest
WHAT CANDY JAR? Teachers get good benefits and pensions. That’s about it. The pay per hour isn’t good, at all, and prep periods aren’t sufficient to actually do the work they need to do, so they grade papers at home and on weekends. They get summers off, but that just means they have to take summer jobs as waiters or lifeguards or something. It isn’t like they chill at the beach house for three months. Even then, while working summer jobs, they still come in two or three times a week to do curriculum work.
Superintendents have the candy jar, but they aren’t teachers, they aren’t in the teachers union, and they often stab the teacher’s union in the back by using the teachers as a shield for unpopular initiatives. They’ll complain the teachers won’t accept a pay freeze, but they won’t tell the public that the reason the teachers won’t accept the freeze is because the freeze is being used to finance a raise for the superintendents.
And the kids lose, because all anyone wants to do is stick it to those, lazy, overpaid, good-for-nothing teachers.
You say, by the way, that no one is saying that public schools should close; read the post of mine that started this exchange, which was responding to a post celebrating the closing of public schools. But nobody is saying that, right?
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