Get the Kids Out - 0f public school

[Col40]

COL40, If everyone gets vouchers to send their kids where they want, answer the following-

1. How do any of the schools/school systems plan for budgets on a five year cycle when they never know how many pupils they will have in any given year?
2. How about conscience? There is no way, quite frankly, that I want the local Saudi academy to be able to receive vouchers.
3. I don’t have a kid, give me MY voucher so I can go back to school.
4. In this world of school choice, who provides for the disabled and special needs?
5. School buses? Are you expecting the state to provide busing as well?
6. How do small, poor districts who get a lot of state money handle vouchers? They have no where else to go.
7. Please cite a major or medium sized school district where vouchers have been universally available to all students and the idea has worked.

My answers:

1. How do they pay for it/plan for it now? They don’t have the money now—they don’t know how many kids are going to be in a district/how big the tax base will be now? Your point makes no sense—they do what they do now–project out.
2. Well, see—that’s the attitude I’m sick of…you don’t want to pay for a “saudi” school so Catholic schools suffer–what a bigoted answer that is. Quite frankly, if we had vouchers as an option and there was an Islamic school that parents could chose to send their children to, that’s their choice like it’s mine to send our kids to a Catholic school. PARENTAL choice. When I talk about vouchers, I’m not just promoting it for Catholic schools–we also have a very large Jewish school and Islamic school in our part of New York and if it meant that more families of those faiths could afford to send their kids to those schools, more power to them! If you’re worried about jihadist teachings–I would think that Homeland Security is monitoring that as well.

And as far as conscience goes—already as taxpayers—especially here in NY State–we are paying for a school JUST FOR GAY kids? Um…and we can’t pay for Catholic kids to go to a school that embraces their values?? Something amiss here? We’re also paying for medicaid funded abortions (are you OK with that?). Our taxes pay for quite a few items that I feel are against what I believe.

1. You already can get tax credits for going back to school as an adult. We write quite a bit of my husband’s MBA classes off our taxes, but we can’t write our kids tuition off.
2. ALL kids means disabled and special needs too—who says vouchers don’t apply to them? Maybe their choices are more limited–but if we’re budgeting money now for them, why would that change? Vouchers is not about reducing funding, it’s about giving parents money that is already budgeted for their child’s education in a public school and allowing them to pay for a school of their choice. The reason the unions dislike it is that it means the public schools would be forced to become more efficient and face more competition.
3. Bussing is already paid for by school budgets—including some private schools—just not all districts will cover it if the school is out of their district…I have that fight every year with ours.
4. Bottom line–vouchers are about choice—if someone lives in a poor district but their parents want them to attend a private school, vouchers allow that to happen. DC had a great voucher program until Obama came in to office.
5. aei.org/publications/pubID.17640/pub_detail.asp
   examiner.com/x-1393-Education-Improvement-Examiner~y2009m3d20-Should-Obama-look-to-Swedens-successful-school-voucher-program

Oh and here’s one that talks about WHY public schools fail…
examiner.com/x-1393-Education-Improvement-Examiner~y2009m3d5-Why-is-the-US-public-school-system-struggling

 

[Lujack]

1. ALL kids means disabled and special needs too—who says vouchers don’t apply to them? Maybe their choices are more limited–but if we’re budgeting money now for them, why would that change? Vouchers is not about reducing funding, it’s about giving parents money that is already budgeted for their child’s education in a public school and allowing them to pay for a school of their choice. The reason the unions dislike it is that it means the public schools would be forced to become more efficient and face more competition.

It allows them to choose a school, but it doesn’t give them real choice. My Catholic school was a wonderful place, but I’d never spend a special needs kid there. Public school is really your only choice, because they are the ones with enough resources to handle it. Because, however, they are a minority group with very specific and demanding needs, their programs get cut first when budgets go down. Two other points:

1. Efficiency is not a desirable goal for schools; an efficient system identifies “hopeless causes” and puts no effort into them. For example, if Ben and Jerry’s gets a crop of bad cherries, they don’t try to reclaim them, they toss them out and move on. A school, though, can’t throw out cherries, and must instead put effort into turning bad cherries into good ones. This is incredible inefficiency, but it is also what we should want out of schools.
2. Competition is meaningless without a threat of a school going under; that’s what makes business competition effective, because if in business, if your company struggles, it goes under. That isn’t a desirable goal for schools because the impacts are different. If McDonald’s folds tomorrow, that’s not a big deal because you can eat at Burger King, but if a school goes under, and all the kids have to transfer somewhere else, that throws their entire school career into jeopardy. This is especially important because struggling schools are the most likely to have high concentrations of at-risk kids. Now, under a voucher system, Suburban High would make lots and lots of money and get better and better as kids flock there. Inner City High, though, would get worse and worse, as their funding goes down the tubes and the percentage of at-risk kids goes up and up and up.

At this point, Inner City High can’t attract teachers, so they probably have a terrible student-teacher ratio, they can’t buy new equipment, so the infrastructure is crumbling, and forget about updating their textbooks. All this is great for Suburban High, which can now afford to get every kid a laptop with the extra money they take in, but Inner City High is stumbling, and finally closes (because we’re using competition, and that means some schools have to lose). Now what do the kids of Inner City High do? Ride the bus for an hour to Suburban High, where they don’t know anyone, and they aren’t really wanted? Cross town to Inner City High II, which is in the same dire straits as the one that just closed? Or drop out of school entirely?

It serves the suburban and upper-class neighborhoods pretty well, but it does not serve the inner-city schools at all, and those are the schools that need the most help.

 

[PaulinVA]

My answers:

1. How do they pay for it/plan for it now? They don’t have the money now—they don’t know how many kids are going to be in a district/how big the tax base will be now? Your point makes no sense—they do what they do now–project out.

Right now, a public school district knows how many children are in the boundaries for each school. It knows when subdivisions are being built, when buildings are being renovated, and plans for that. There are no variables that can’t be controlled. However, if everyone has vouchers, schools will pop up/fail every school year. It will be a mad scramble every year, and, for some, the result will be that no one nearby will accept their voucher because they will be full.

1. Well, see—that’s the attitude I’m sick of…you don’t want to pay for a “saudi” school so Catholic schools suffer–what a bigoted answer that is. Quite frankly, if we had vouchers as an option and there was an Islamic school that parents could chose to send their children to, that’s their choice like it’s mine to send our kids to a Catholic school. PARENTAL choice. When I talk about vouchers, I’m not just promoting it for Catholic schools–we also have a very large Jewish school and Islamic school in our part of New York and if it meant that more families of those faiths could afford to send their kids to those schools, more power to them! If you’re worried about jihadist teachings–I would think that Homeland Security is monitoring that as well.

The premise of your entire argument is not to trust government to educate our children, but you would allow every wacko preaching hate to start a school with voucher money? Then, you would trust Homeland Security to keep you safe? Those are diametrically opposed views. And, yes, America needs to be protected from the hate-spewing Islamists. Have you ever read what’s in their grade school text books?

1. You already can get tax credits for going back to school as an adult. We write quite a bit of my husband’s MBA classes off our taxes, but we can’t write our kids tuition off.

You missed my point. Tax money is spent to provide a public education. Everyone contributes. It’s for the common good. It’s not only for you.

1. ALL kids means disabled and special needs too—who says vouchers don’t apply to them? Maybe their choices are more limited–but if we’re budgeting money now for them, why would that change? Vouchers is not about reducing funding, it’s about giving parents money that is already budgeted for their child’s education in a public school and allowing them to pay for a school of their choice. The reason the unions dislike it is that it means the public schools would be forced to become more efficient and face more competition.

The public school system is able to provide for children with all sorts of disabilities because of economies of scale. No Catholic school system can or will provide such programs. BUT, all of you people will take all of the money out of the public schools, leaving the special ed kids scrambling for services.

1. Busing is already paid for by school budgets—including some private schools—just not all districts will cover it if the school is out of their district…I have that fight every year with ours.

I’m sure you do. Once again, developing a bus system to deliver students to every fly by night charter school and private academy is beyond what’s being spent now.

1. Bottom line–vouchers are about choice—if someone lives in a poor district but their parents want them to attend a private school, vouchers allow that to happen. DC had a great voucher program until Obama came in to office.

Really? The District? There are 2,000 kids with vouchers. I guess it is great if you have a voucher. And your Charter School is well capitalized. and it doesn’t get shut down.

1. aei.org/publications/pubID.17640/pub_detail.asp
   examiner.com/x-1393-Education-Improvement-Examiner~y2009m3d20-Should-Obama-look-to-Swedens-successful-school-voucher-program

Nothing convincing here.

There has never been more than an experiment. I fear that a full blown ‘everybody gets a voucher’ system will not work, and have yet to hear a voucher advocate explain how it will work, at the nuts and bolts level, not at the ideological level.

Oh and here’s one that talks about WHY public schools fail…

But, when the same administrators and teachers start a charter school or private school suddenly they are better?

 

[Col40]

Right now, a public school district knows how many children are in the boundaries for each school. It knows when subdivisions are being built, when buildings are being renovated, and plans for that. There are no variables that can’t be controlled. However, if everyone has vouchers, schools will pop up/fail every school year. It will be a mad scramble every year, and, for some, the result will be that no one nearby will accept their voucher because they will be full.

The premise of your entire argument is not to trust government to educate our children, but you would allow every wacko preaching hate to start a school with voucher money? Then, you would trust Homeland Security to keep you safe? Those are diametrically opposed views. And, yes, America needs to be protected from the hate-spewing Islamists. Have you ever read what’s in their grade school text books?

You missed my point. Tax money is spent to provide a public education. Everyone contributes. It’s for the common good. It’s not only for you.

The public school system is able to provide for children with all sorts of disabilities because of economies of scale. No Catholic school system can or will provide such programs. BUT, all of you people will take all of the money out of the public schools, leaving the special ed kids scrambling for services.

I’m sure you do. Once again, developing a bus system to deliver students to every fly by night charter school and private academy is beyond what’s being spent now.

Really? The District? There are 2,000 kids with vouchers. I guess it is great if you have a voucher. And your Charter School is well capitalized. and it doesn’t get shut down.

Nothing convincing here.

There has never been more than an experiment. I fear that a full blown ‘everybody gets a voucher’ system will not work, and have yet to hear a voucher advocate explain how it will work, at the nuts and bolts level, not at the ideological level.

But, when the same administrators and teachers start a charter school or private school suddenly they are better?

You still aren’t convincing me WHY a corrupt school district like the one I live in should get $20000 a year for my two children who receive NOT ONE service from them…

You still aren’t convincing me WHY a great Catholic high school, like the only one in our county, should be in a crisis situation and possibly facing closure, leaving parents who want Catholic education for their children faced with two options: Home school or drive their kids to a much more expensive Catholic high school 30 minutes away.

Take this smug attitude about how public schools are for the common good and peddle it at the next PTA meeting. I’m not buying it.

 

[PaulinVA]

You still aren’t convincing me WHY a corrupt school district like the one I live in should get $20000 a year for my two children who receive NOT ONE service from them…

You still aren’t convincing me WHY a great Catholic high school, like the only one in our county, should be in a crisis situation and possibly facing closure, leaving parents who want Catholic education for their children faced with two options: Home school or drive their kids to a much more expensive Catholic high school 30 minutes away.

Take this smug attitude about how public schools are for the common good and peddle it at the next PTA meeting. I’m not buying it.

No, It’s just that when you strip away the rhetoric and hyperbole, you got nothing.

I’m sorry that your great Catholic High School is failing. Perhaps the people in it’s area aren’t interested in it’s product? Perhaps school choice is occurring before your eyes and you refuse to accept it?

 

[Col40]

No, It’s just that when you strip away the rhetoric and hyperbole, you got nothing.

I’m sorry that your great Catholic High School is failing. Perhaps the people in it’s area aren’t interested in it’s product? Perhaps school choice is occurring before your eyes and you refuse to accept it?

Spare me your smug remarks…it’s not a lack of interest in a product–it’s an inability to AFFORD this product for a lot of people. It’s not choice—it’s parents being FORCED to make decisions about their children’s education. But I don’t expect someone whose “Choice” is forced on others to understand that…

 

[PaulinVA]

Spare me your smug remarks…it’s not a lack of interest in a product–it’s an inability to AFFORD this product for a lot of people. It’s not choice—it’s parents being FORCED to make decisions about their children’s education. But I don’t expect someone whose “Choice” is forced on others to understand that…

Well, that’s at the heart of it, isn’t it? Getting the government to fund private education, where any religion or ideology or wacky philosophy can indoctrinate the next generation. How do we decide which of these is ‘good’ and which is ‘bad’?

Wanting the public to fund the private school education of your children is…strange.

 

[Jennifer123]

Why would a child from a strong Catholic family be vulnerable and confused? What are we raising… a generation of wimps?

Some public schools really stink. I think it’s a reflection of the neighborhoods… there are ALOT of places I would not want to live because of crime, gangs, rampant drugs etc. But there are great places too… with wonderful public schools. So assuming it’s a good public school… what’s up with the fear? Is our faith so shallow and weak that we think the day spent next to some children who may not share our views is going to completly destroy all the work we’ve put into our kids? Where are your prayers? Where is your faith in the Holy Spirit to protect your children? Seriously, and what’s up with the assumption that your child will be surrounded by morally bankrupt people? My town is mainly Catholic / Evangelical. No idea where you live that your neighbors are so horrible? Mine don’t go to my church necessarily, but they are good people. Maybe you should move?

Sailor ~ All of my post isn’t necessarily directed at you, but for all posters who apparently believe that all public schools are of Satan.

I live in a rural area, in a small town, where the school district is decent. Not exceptional, but not poor. Just average. The majority of people here have so far refused to fund public schools through increased taxation. Certainly some of that is due to the fact that we are not of much means here, however, the district’s buildings are deteriorating, the newest building was built in 1953. There were times this past winter where there was no heat and school was either cancelled or held in local churches. There are going to be even deeper cuts, teacher layoffs, and a reduced schhool year this year and years in the future due to reduced state revenue.

Still, people seem to be proud of their schools here even though our district’s needs are dire.

My friend’s 1st grade daughter came home the other day and showed her mom a dance her friends taught her. She started dancing seductively and flashing her “bits”.

Another friend’s middle schooler, a pastor’s daughter, is according to her mom (my friend) in danger of ultimately becoming pregnant. They are pulling her out maybe before the end of the year.

A few high school boys at my friend’s church, say they estimate they’ve seen about 75% of the girls in their school in “sexy” or even naked cel phone pictures. These are honest and responsible boys who may or may not be actively trying to get to these pics but in any case their HS culture seems to be saturated with these images.

Our catholic teenage babysitter say that many of her friends have already had sex, are on the pill, or talk about sex a lot.

According to high schoolers in my friend’s youth ministry program, teachers openly mock and are hostile to religion in their science classes.

This is what I know from just a very small sampling of kids I know in our little, rural, public school system.

How can I not be scared? I don’t really care how people educate their child but for many, many of us, I think our concern is real. I truly just don’t think people realize just how bad the situation is in many schools.

 

[Col40]

I live in a rural area, in a small town, where the school district is decent. Not exceptional, but not poor. Just average. The majority of people here have so far refused to fund public schools through increased taxation. Certainly some of that is due to the fact that we are not of much means here, however, the district’s buildings are deteriorating, the newest building was built in 1953. There were times this past winter where there was no heat and school was either cancelled or held in local churches. There are going to be even deeper cuts, teacher layoffs, and a reduced schhool year this year and years in the future due to reduced state revenue.

Still, people seem to be proud of their schools here even though our district’s needs are dire.

My friend’s 1st grade daughter came home the other day and showed her mom a dance her friends taught her. She started dancing seductively and flashing her “bits”.

Another friend’s middle schooler, a pastor’s daughter, is according to her mom (my friend) in danger of ultimately becoming pregnant. They are pulling her out maybe before the end of the year.

A few high school boys at my friend’s church, say they estimate they’ve seen about 75% of the girls in their school in “sexy” or even naked cel phone pictures. These are honest and responsible boys who may or may not be actively trying to get to these pics but in any case their HS culture seems to be saturated with these images.

Our catholic teenage babysitter say that many of her friends have already had sex, are on the pill, or talk about sex a lot.

According to high schoolers in my friend’s youth ministry program, teachers openly mock and are hostile to religion in their science classes.

This is what I know from just a very small sampling of kids I know in our little, rural, public school system.

How can I not be scared? I don’t really care how people educate their child but for many, many of us, I think our concern is real. I truly just don’t think people realize just how bad the situation is in many schools.

It’s amazing how people who support public schools think they are THE only choice and want to deny this behavior is real. It is scary. I understand your concerns!

 

[Lujack]

It’s amazing how people who support public schools think they are THE only choice and want to deny this behavior is real. It is scary. I understand your concerns!

And it is in Catholic schools as well, no matter how orthodox and religious they are. Heck, my father went to high school in the middle of the 1960’s, and he had classmates drop dead of heroin abuse. It was in NYC, sure, but Catholic schools have never really been an island of purity against the world. I love Catholic schooling very much, but they don’t provide a guarantee of protection against sordid, immoral, and tragic events either.

 

[Col40]

And it is in Catholic schools as well, no matter how orthodox and religious they are. Heck, my father went to high school in the middle of the 1960’s, and he had classmates drop dead of heroin abuse. It was in NYC, sure, but Catholic schools have never really been an island of purity against the world. I love Catholic schooling very much, but they don’t provide a guarantee of protection against sordid, immoral, and tragic events either.

That’s true…but I think they have a better chance at a Catholic school. I hear a lot less about teen pregnancy, drug use, drinking from parents whose kids are in the county’s Catholic high school vs. the public schools. The overall continuation in faith (not just Mass attendance, but also participation in ministries) is higher. Graduation rates are much higher, as are the number of students who go on to college–like 99% to 100%—many with scholarships! Everything I have witnessed corresponds with this.

Nothing is a guarantee–but I like the odds a lot better…