Get the state out of education

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The_Reginator

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I didn’t want to derail the thread Swedish government seizes child from home schooling family so here’s another education thread with an opposite way of viewing education:
Get the state out of education
If you could completely privatize just one government function, what would that be?
Without much hesitation, my answer to that question would be, education – in the policy sense of, all schools, from the earliest day cares to the last college adult extension program, and any kind of state subsidy for education, along the way. My first argument for this would be: The state has no business in the minds of the nation. Indeed, I think it has more business in the nation’s bedrooms. [Here Mr. Warren is rephrasing former Prime Minister Trudeau’s famous line that “The state has no business in the bedrooms of the nation.”]
We easily accept the associated notion that “in a democracy, public schooling is necessary to assure minimum standards for citizenship.” That schools should provide the machinery for the indoctrination of the masses follows naturally from this. Think it through. The proposition actually reverses the first principle of democracy: that government should answer to citizens, and not citizens to government. And remember, that all “progressive” educational proposals require political compulsion.
That’s quite a radical idea. To my mind at least.
Thoughts?

Reg.
 
Removing the state from education necessarily means that fewer children will be educated, and many of those educated will be educated more poorly. While a number of schools are doing a poor job as it is, we at least have a fair sense of that failure because of standards. In the absence of state coercion, many schools wouldn’t subject themselves to such standards.

I think the author is too quick to dismiss the importance of education for citizenship. It seems clear to me, as I follow world news, that more educated countries are much more likely to have efficient and effective democratic governments, and much less likely to have riots, political assassinations, ethnic cleansing, entrenched widespread corruption, etc.

A well-educated populace has also made North America extraordinarily competitive in the world market. Although that competitiveness is diminishing as many other countries have stressed the education of their own populations, I suspect it would only hurt the long-term North American economy to have a less-educated public.

I do think that less involvement of the federal government in education is truer to the principles of the American republic - it was until recently in the platform of the Republican Party to dissolve the US Department of Education. However, the federal government is now more involved than ever in local education, and few in Congress were willing to stand up to No Child Left Behind when it was pushed through, so my sentiment is apparently a relic of the past.
 
Yes, a few children will not be educated at first.

Think of the advance though. Our children that do attend school will really be educated. The widespread indoctrination we have now will disappear.

When parents see the benefit of a real education, they will work really hard to get their children to school.
 
I read something recently [can’t remember exactly where] that when the “progressivists” got their secular public school agenda passed and the children were “taken” to “public schools” for the first time … a hundred years ago … there were public protests and a lot of crying and tears.

Turned out to be justified. Took a while, but eventually the kids got dumbed down and their religion was taken from them.

Which led to the rise of the Catholic school system.

Which got … “disappeared” over time.

Which led to the home schooling movement.

It’s a big issue.
 
I’m not sure about this, and I home-school. I would like to see a lot of changes in our school system, but I do not think education is just the responsibility of parents, nor does it benefit only the individual. We live in communities because we are social creatures, and communities have obligations to their members, and vice versa. Properly understood, government is just an institution to allow the community to act.

I also think that anyone who thinks that all parents will take control of their children’s education are living in a dream world. Especially if they are also advocating a system that doesn’t give parents the ability to do that somehow, with time, or money, or social support. Somehow I suspect that it may be the same individuals who want to reduce social support who are advocating that government get out of education.

I would really love to see big business get out of education, and preparing kids for the workforce to stop being the purpose of education. Although it seems like it should be sensible, this usually results in poor quality education, and teaching kids to be “good employees” more than good citizens.THere are ways to begin to accomplish this kind of thing. Very small community based schools are one idea; and not putting kids into school for the whole day at a young age. It isn’t necessary and it does mean that kids don’t have time for things like religious education or whatever. Charter schools are apossibility as well although I think they can tend to create a fractured community. But there is a place for government in all these things. Heck, in Alberta home-schooled kids get their governmental education dollars given to the parent. It is a real blessing to homeschooling parents, and it wouldn’t be possible without government.
 
I agree with the general idea. School vouchers are the first thing to fight for and a practical solution that will go a long way in snatching our children from the death grip of public school indoctrination centers.
 
I’ve looked a bit into this and it looks like there be more to it than meets the eye. The parents were apparently involved in a cult, and were going to India to go live in the cult’s compound. I am not sure that it is just a homeschooling issue. The HSLDA is not always a reliable organization IMO and they seem to be involved here.

I’m not sure how reliable all this info is, but it does make me wonder.
 
Heck, in Alberta home-schooled kids get their governmental education dollars given to the parent. It is a real blessing to homeschooling parents, and it wouldn’t be possible without government.
I like this idea, too. Essentially, let us have school vouchers, and let the money go to homeschooling parents, or to private schools of their choice, if they choose these venues instead of sending their kids to public schools.
 
I like this idea, too. Essentially, let us have school vouchers, and let the money go to homeschooling parents, or to private schools of their choice, if they choose these venues instead of sending their kids to public schools.
The only problem I have with it is that we now have a lot less public participation on community in general. Back in the days when most people were publicly educated, communities were mostly small and pretty tight. Since the 1950s, people are much less likely to be involved in public institutions, join clubs, hang out with neighbours or in neighbourhood venues, and even to vote.

Kids going to school with other kids in the same geographical neighbourhoods is one of the few public community institutions that most people participate in and it is disappearing to. People prefer to take a car or bus to go to a private or charter school with like-minded people, or home-school. We see the same thing in parishes too, people go out of their own community to the place that suits them.

I’m guilty of this all too, and I’m not sure what the answer is except to try and participate in other community institutions and groups. I think there is something very basic about plain old geographic proximity as a basis for community, where we have to take the people who happen to be close to us and live with them - that is after all why the Church is arranged geographically with a Bishop in each area.and everyone belonging normally to the local parish.

I worry that along with all the other assaults on local communities, losing local community based schools is going to fragment people even more.
 
Removing the state from education necessarily means that fewer children will be educated, and many of those educated will be educated more poorly. While a number of schools are doing a poor job as it is, we at least have a fair sense of that failure because of standards. In the absence of state coercion, many schools wouldn’t subject themselves to such standards.
I find it amazing that people forget that up until 150 years ago, the government had no involvement in education in North America. Or at least I would, if the current education system had any interest in educating young people. The state’s involvement in education is directly responsible for the incredible dumbing down of entire generations of people.

The purose of government schooling has never been to ‘educate’ children. It has been to cultivate them into ‘productive citizens’ rather than individual human beings with their own sense of worth. At least when I was a kid they pretended that they were educating us; now they don’t even bother with the pretense.

The school system as we know it was designed by wealthy magnates who wanted employees, not thinking citizens. Public education is a farce, a scam, and a criminal waste of our children’s minds.

I will never allow any child of mine to be subjected to government schooling again. I dream of a land where the state keeps its nose out of education altogether, and lets parents do the job they were designed to do by God: raise and educate their children.
I think the author is too quick to dismiss the importance of education for citizenship. It seems clear to me, as I follow world news, that more educated countries are much more likely to have efficient and effective democratic governments, and much less likely to have riots, political assassinations, ethnic cleansing, entrenched widespread corruption, etc.
Entrenched widespread corruption? Name a ‘more educated’ country that doesn’t have that. America before public schooling was far less corrupt than it is today. Corrupt? Yes; it’s virtually impossible to eliminate corruption completely. But thanks to the public education system, an entire generation is growing up that doesn’t even recognize the corruption for what it is. If America still educated its own children as it did at the beginning, the left would not exist in America.

As for riots, check out what’s happening in the state education paradises of Europe. Sorry, but widespread public education doesn’t seem to be stopping those, does it?

And finally, ‘efficient and effective democratic governments.’ There is not a single one in the entire world right now; the closest would probably be Switzerland. The countries with state-run education that are democratic are mired in massive, entrenched bureaucracies that view government inefficiency as the most effective way to maintain their own power. Proper education of the youth would destroy that system within two generations.
A well-educated populace has also made North America extraordinarily competitive in the world market. Although that competitiveness is diminishing as many other countries have stressed the education of their own populations, I suspect it would only hurt the long-term North American economy to have a less-educated public.
You have a situation where most high school graduates can’t do anything more complex than basic math, can barely read a newspaper, and care more about celebrity shenanigans than political corruption. How much less educated can the public be? I don’t know any homeschoolers who aren’t far ahead of the government school kids at comparable ages.
I do think that less involvement of the federal government in education is truer to the principles of the American republic - it was until recently in the platform of the Republican Party to dissolve the US Department of Education. However, the federal government is now more involved than ever in local education, and few in Congress were willing to stand up to No Child Left Behind when it was pushed through, so my sentiment is apparently a relic of the past.
Only for the time being; as more people become aware of just how much damage is being done to their children, they will rise up and fix the situation the way they always have: vote the bums out and put the right people in.
 
I like this idea, too. Essentially, let us have school vouchers, and let the money go to homeschooling parents, or to private schools of their choice, if they choose these venues instead of sending their kids to public schools.
Sorry to jump in, I think they do that in PA, too. You can put your child in a ‘cyber’ school, the same as a homeschool, the kids are tested to see if they are on target with the typical child in that age bracket, something like that.

The state provides the computer, school work and internet access. I think the charter school gets funding from the state. You do have to apply and be accepted, they just don’t take anyone, though.

I looked into it for my son, but I decided that the public school would be better for him, socially and-well, I’m not a teacher. Far from it. I’d be doing him a disservice homeschooling him.

He actually is a very good student, and he hopefully (his teachers say he will have no problems) will have his pick of specialty high schools next year (he will be starting HS next year), the kids who qualify actually compete for the schools who have selected admissions, based on grades, behavior, attendance and state school testing.

While I think the public school system generally is a joke…it’s the attitude of the kids and the mindset of the culture generally, sad, really. Most teachers are well trained (mind, I say most I have run across…some leave a LOT to be desired)…and they are dealing with so much **** along with just teaching, they get burnt out. I can’t say as I blame them…

At my kid’s latest conference, his homeroom teacher apologized for yet another paper, and silly rule verifying that I was making sure that I was following what my kid was doing in school, yadda, yadda…said he was preaching to the choir, if all the students was like my son, he wouldn’t be having the conversation…and wanted to know what motivated my son so, he was eager to do his schoolwork, he didn’t have to be prodded and encouraged.

I told him my son was internally motivated, it wasn’t really my doing…he learned from a early age that knowledge was power, and the love of learning for learning’s sake never was beat out of him. I hope it never is…
 
Sorry to jump in, I think they do that in PA, too. You can put your child in a ‘cyber’ school, the same as a homeschool, the kids are tested to see if they are on target with the typical child in that age bracket, something like that.

The state provides the computer, school work and internet access. I think the charter school gets funding from the state. You do have to apply and be accepted, they just don’t take anyone, though.

I looked into it for my son, but I decided that the public school would be better for him, socially and-well, I’m not a teacher. Far from it. I’d be doing him a disservice homeschooling him.

He actually is a very good student, and he hopefully (his teachers say he will have no problems) will have his pick of specialty high schools next year (he will be starting HS next year), the kids who qualify actually compete for the schools who have selected admissions, based on grades, behavior, attendance and state school testing.

While I think the public school system generally is a joke…it’s the attitude of the kids and the mindset of the culture generally, sad, really. Most teachers are well trained (mind, I say most I have run across…some leave a LOT to be desired)…and they are dealing with so much **** along with just teaching, they get burnt out. I can’t say as I blame them…

At my kid’s latest conference, his homeroom teacher apologized for yet another paper, and silly rule verifying that I was making sure that I was following what my kid was doing in school, yadda, yadda…said he was preaching to the choir, if all the students was like my son, he wouldn’t be having the conversation…and wanted to know what motivated my son so, he was eager to do his schoolwork, he didn’t have to be prodded and encouraged.

I told him my son was internally motivated, it wasn’t really my doing…he learned from a early age that knowledge was power, and the love of learning for learning’s sake never was beat out of him. I hope it never is…
This is our first year “cyber schooling” and we love it. Its not the same as homeschooling though, you still have teachers for every subject just like a brick and morter school, but yes all the material is provided by that state. I’m not “teaching” my child, but more or less keeping her responsible for the requirements within the lessons that the teacher provides. There are online classes every day.

The cyber school is just enough government involvement for me. There should be some mandates a school has to meet. The education in the cyber school is actually light years away from what my daughter was learning at the parish school. When there is nobody really “minding the store” to see if the education isn’t up to certain standards, there are gaps within the education. We were shocked by what my daughter was suppose to know as a 6th grader and how inept the parish school had been in meeting those requirements. A school voucher would not have helped us discover what was happening at the parish school. If anything a voucher would have compounded the problem because nobody seemed to be challenging the teachers to meet the state education requirements.
 
I find it amazing that people forget that up until 150 years ago, the government had no involvement in education in North America. Or at least I would, if the current education system had any interest in educating young people. The state’s involvement in education is directly responsible for the incredible dumbing down of entire generations of people.
If you can demonstrate that people were better-educated prior to state-funded education, I would be interested.
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Borealis:
Entrenched widespread corruption? Name a ‘more educated’ country that doesn’t have that.
As you immediately pointed out, there is always corruption. But my contention is that in educated countries the corruption is generally neither entrenched nor widespread to the degree you find in less-educated countries Obviously there are exceptions - Russia comes to mind as a country that is well-educated yet blighted by corruption.
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Borealis:
As for riots, check out what’s happening in the state education paradises of Europe. Sorry, but widespread public education doesn’t seem to be stopping those, does it?
You’ll have to be more specific; I’m not aware of widespread rioting in Europe. And riots may not have been the best example - you won’t find riots in totalitarian states, either. My main concern was the susceptibility of uneducated masses to riots directed against scapegoated groups (often with tacit government support), such as we’ve seen in Kyrgyzstan, Nigeria, Zimbabwe, Rwanda, Sudan, or East Timor. While similar tensions exist in many places, they haven’t gained the same traction in places like South Africa, India, Thailand, and education is a part of that.
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Borealis:
And finally, ‘efficient and effective democratic governments.’ There is not a single one in the entire world right now; the closest would probably be Switzerland. The countries with state-run education that are democratic are mired in massive, entrenched bureaucracies that view government inefficiency as the most effective way to maintain their own power. Proper education of the youth would destroy that system within two generations.
That’s a pretty broad brush you’re painting with. I don’t know that I’d call countries like say Denmark or Estonia ineffective democracies, or that they are mired in bureaucracies that idolize inefficiency. But to each his own.
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Borealis:
How much less educated can the public be? I don’t know any homeschoolers who aren’t far ahead of the government school kids at comparable ages.
If you stopped educating the government school kids, I think it’s fair to say they would be considerably less-educated. Without government coercion to attend school, and government involvement in regulating those schools, some children will get no education at all, and many will probably attend lower-quality schools that are cheaper or more convenient.
 
The problem isn’t that children are not being taught Math, Science,English, etc, It’s all the other harmful things they’re learning, i,e atheism, globalism, socialism, secularism, American history from a far left perspective, acceptance of homosexuality, etc.
10 years ago, if you even suggested abolishing the public school system you'd no doubt be called insane, but as our economy continues to decline, I think before too long we'll be able to rephrase that suggestion and simply ask "Is public education really more important than a roof over your head or food on the table" ? Or to put it in more sarcastic terms, it may be a luxury we can literally no longer afford.
 
There is another thread on CAF in which the discussion centers around students in the U.S. ranking something like 27th in the world in math. Very poor performance.

And I was channel surfing on television and they were saying that inner city government schools have a terrible graduation rate. AND that the cost per student is almost has high as the best private schools.

AND that the student / teacher ratio is very low, compared to a few decades ago, at which time the students also performed better academically.

The state is doing a TERRIBLE job of educating our children.
 
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