Getting angry at/hating an animal

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I think he is. He looks pretty mean too.

😃
:rotfl:Hitler got reincarnated as a CAT!!! and a very unhappy looking one too. šŸ˜› Just a joke my ultra right friends. Im not endorsing reincarnation. I know there are some who are sooo sensitive here that a mere joke may be taken as a mortal sin! :rolleyes: He could also look lie Charlie Chaplain? maybe? šŸ™‚
 
"One of the great things about being human is the ability to use our intelligence and reason to look beyond our ourselves and our own immediate desires and needs for survival. "

"You seem to think animals have the same dignity as persons, which they do not. "

Both of these quotes taken from different postings seem to me to get to the heart of this discussion thread. Human intelligence forms the basis of our survival in that it leads to our passing on both morality and ethics. Dignity is not solely a human trait or instinct. I have brought my dogs to a dog park and after watching them for awhile seem to think that they have a defined dignity. It doesn’t rise to our level but they have it.

Both of these postings brought back to mind a journal I read years ago where a gorilla was taught sign language as an experiment in animal intelligence. One of the thoughts that this gorilla signed back was ā€œDon’t kill meā€. At first I thought about the line of about monkeys and typewriters typing out Shakepeare’s works. But the article went on about the apparent conversations between animal and trainer. Somehow the thought of ascribing dignity to an animal becomes not to far stretched of an idea. Do they have dignity or a least a sense of dignity as we tend to believe in it? Where those animal researchers ascribing intelligence and human thought processes where it didn’t belong? Or was it an experiment that ran amok?:confused:

Please don’t think of me as a believer in PETA. These two thoughts by seperate posters opened up a line of questioning for me. Any thoughts???
I have been reading your posts with interest. Are you referring to Koko the gorilla? She is very intelligent and can string words together to make a new word.

On those two quotes you posted above, I agree totally with the first statement which I believe is Jane Grey’s. I see what God has given us as a privilege and we have to use our superior intelligence and free well. We should not use those gifts to subdue and abuse any human or non human. We are supposed to be good stewards of all of God’s creation and we will have to answer some day on our actions. To me every sentient being has its own dignity.

On the second quote, it is not for us to decide on dignity. No one can take anyone’s dignity away from him . We can disrespect the dignity of a person. Why is it so important for some to go on about how the dignity of a person is so much higher than that of an animal? What dignity is there in starting wars, inciting violence? Saying that I really do not think animals care about discussions about the level of dignity we attribute to them. We diminish ourselves however, when we disrespect their innate dignity. An example is making a magestic elephant stand on two legs on a drum. In such a situation, the only one with dignity would be the elephant.
 
I have been reading your posts with interest. Are you referring to Koko the gorilla? She is very intelligent and can string words together to make a new word.

On those two quotes you posted above, I agree totally with the first statement which I believe is Jane Grey’s. I see what God has given us as a privilege and we have to use our superior intelligence and free well. We should not use those gifts to subdue and abuse any human or non human. We are supposed to be good stewards of all of God’s creation and we will have to answer some day on our actions. To me every sentient being has its own dignity.

On the second quote, it is not for us to decide on dignity. No one can take anyone’s dignity away from him . We can disrespect the dignity of a person. Why is it so important for some to go on about how the dignity of a person is so much higher than that of an animal? What dignity is there in starting wars, inciting violence? Saying that I really do not think animals care about discussions about the level of dignity we attribute to them. We diminish ourselves however, when we disrespect their innate dignity. An example is making a magestic elephant stand on two legs on a drum. In such a situation, the only one with dignity would be the elephant.
I believe that I have seen an animal use reason in person. I have seen videos of an octopus solving a complex puzzle which would require reason. I don’t think I am anthropomorphizing there. I have never heard of a case which I believe of an animal being malicious, except perhaps the whale which the story of Moby Dick was based on. I have heard of this being attributed to two different sperm whales who were renowned for attacking whalers on sight, presumably out of revenge or anger.
 
I believe that I have seen an animal use reason in person. I have seen videos of an octopus solving a complex puzzle which would require reason. I don’t think I am anthropomorphizing there. I have never heard of a case which I believe of an animal being malicious, except perhaps the whale which the story of Moby Dick was based on. I have heard of this being attributed to two different sperm whales who were renowned for attacking whalers on sight, presumably out of revenge or anger.
Get back to me when they can understand the concept of zero.
 
By the way, us humans are made of tasty meat as well apparently - cannibals, lions, sharks, crocodiles etc seem to think so.
Cannibals - They will eat anything so you can’t depend on their opinion.
Lions - They don’t enjoy eating humans, they do it to look powerful in front of the other lions.
Sharks - They get too angry so they can’t see anything beyond the red mist.
Crocodiles - They will attack a human to look cool in front of the Alligators but they prefer a piece of Venison so just throw the human away.

My conclusion after this extensive research is the human wouldn’t be much of a meal unless you can harpoon one coming out of a McDonald’s.
(that was meant to be in jest, so lets please not have a heated debate about meat eating here just this once)
:eek:
 
Get back to me when they can understand the concept of zero.
The first known use of zero by the Romans was around 500 AD. Are you saying that the earliest Christians were incapable of rational thought because most, if not all, of them had no concept of ā€œzeroā€? Zero is an abstraction in mathematics, and not a requirement for reason or logic.
 
The first known use of zero by the Romans was around 500 AD. Are you saying that the earliest Christians were incapable of rational thought because most, if not all, of them had no concept of ā€œzeroā€? Zero is an abstraction in mathematics, and not a requirement for reason or logic.
Animals are not and can never shown to be equal in dignity with humans. All it takes to understand this is a rudimentary understanding of the creation accounts in Genesis.
 
Animals are not and can never shown to be equal in dignity with humans. All it takes to understand this is a rudimentary understanding of the creation accounts in Genesis.
I must be missing your point. Why do you think that the dignity of humans and understanding the concept of ā€œzeroā€ are relevant to the OP? Please elaborate.
 
I must be missing your point. Why do you think that the dignity of humans and understanding the concept of ā€œzeroā€ are relevant to the OP? Please elaborate.
Only humans have the capacity to understand zero. Even before humans did understand it, they still had the capacity. This seemingly insignificant fact about human intellect versus that of animals shows that we are different in a way that goes beyond the empirical. Animals are just that–animals. I find it incredibly annoying (and excessively silly) when people treat their pets as ā€œchildren.ā€ Further, the environmental extremists who assign greater dignity to animals than to the unborn have disordrerd priorities. Animals do not deserve to be afforded the same rights and dignity as humans, no matter how brilliant you think your cat is.
 
Kitties can be very dignified. One named ā€œgracieā€ is snuggling on this cold morning right now. Hard to get angry at that.
Is this Gracie? Gracie says; " I’s can has Cheeze burgerz?" 😃
 
And this one, definitly NOT dignifiedā€¦šŸ˜› Must have been hitting the catnip, just a little too much! šŸ˜‰
 
Looking at things from the Thomist perspective, it is a sin against justice to get angry at an animal for any reason.

St. Thomas Aquinas agrees with Boethius’ definition of a ā€œpersonā€ as: ā€œan individual substance of a rational natureā€. This is to say that the substance/essence/nature/identity of a person is distinct in two ways from a non-person: 1. individual, and 2. rational. A person must be individual and must be rational; if one of these two qualities is lacking, there is no person to consider. Now, we know from this definition that there can only be three sorts of ā€œpersonā€: the human person, the angelic person, and the divine person. You, the reader, are a human person. Saint Michael the Archangel and Lucifer the Fallen are angelic persons. God the Blessed Trinity is a tribunal of divine persons. Each one of these beings possess absolute individuality, and are capable of making rational decisions.

Dolphins do not make outward rational decisions strictly detached from habit or instinct, do they? Dogs are purely natural creatures, whereas human persons are natural and supernatural creatures enlightened by God, sanctified by our Lord Jesus Christ.

Having all the above in mind, it must be a sin against justice to get mad at a dog or other animal, no matter how much it irritates you. Why? Justice is a virtue that pertains to dealing equally with deserving parties. Rendering what is due is the goal of Justice. Now, what is due an irrational creature? Surely, you cannot impute rational decisions to its irrational mind! In this fashion, we can say that it is totally unjust for a rational creature to get angry at an irrational creature (which cannot control itself in a rational manner). There is no equality between a dog and a man in the realm of free will and action; therefore, becoming angry at the dog for a thing it could not comprehend is against JUSTICE.

I might call it a ā€œviceā€ against justice instead of a sin, but I dare say it is sinful to impute personal, human qualities to non-personal beings. It really puts us down in the world. To get angry at this irrational creature is actually to put it up on the same level as we rational beings. This is a great and terrible thing. Don’t ever get angry at an animal.
 
Only humans have the capacity to understand zero. Even before humans did understand it, they still had the capacity. This seemingly insignificant fact about human intellect versus that of animals shows that we are different in a way that goes beyond the empirical. Animals are just that–animals. I find it incredibly annoying (and excessively silly) when people treat their pets as ā€œchildren.ā€ Further, the environmental extremists who assign greater dignity to animals than to the unborn have disordrerd priorities. Animals do not deserve to be afforded the same rights and dignity as humans, no matter how brilliant you think your cat is.
I guess biologists would consider this line of thinking as rather quaint or outdated. The current theories, as I understand them, are that certain cognitive functions tend to occur around certain brain sizes. For example, whales have large brains, and they clearly communicate in a very complex language. Phonically, it is far more complex than anything man has invented. If you subscribe to some of the ideas of information theory, it might follow that whales are able to communicate far more abstract concepts than humans are. Indeed, one of the theories about the affinity of porpoises to man in the water, and the protection that porpoises have provided humans against shark attack, and so on, is that a porpoise can ping you and determine that you are a fellow mammal by identifying your lungs full of air. A blue whale might think that you were fairly stupid because you cannot see the entire floor of the Atlantic Ocean. Why can’t you do that? Surely you are as smart as a whale, aren’t you?

My point is that we need to be careful when we talk about intelligence. For starters, you have no idea as to whether an octopus, who may be smarter than you by many measures of problem solving, has a concept of ā€œzeroā€ or not. For all we know, the octopus has discarded that concept by now for a more advanced abstraction, which you do not have the mental capacity to comprehend. I would invite you to prove to me that a sperm whale has no comprehension of the concept of zero.

While I am on the topic if whales, apparently Catholics were unable to figure out that whales were mammals, perhaps long after whales figured out that people were mammals. There are ancient accounts of whales interacting with man, yet Catholics consumed whale meat during lent in order to avoid eating the meat of mammals. In the Bible, a whale is referred to as a fish.

BTW, my cat is pretty darn smart. I would pit her against you in a game of ā€œcatch that mouseā€, or ā€œbe cute and snugglyā€ any time, and I would even give you a two mouse handicap.
 
Dolphins do not make outward rational decisions strictly detached from habit or instinct, do they? Dogs are purely natural creatures, whereas human persons are natural and supernatural creatures enlightened by God, sanctified by our Lord Jesus Christ.
Yes, by some anecdotal accounts and by some experimental measures, dolphins make very rational choices, and so do other animals with large brains such as octopuses and primates. Primates have expressed abstract emotions such as gratitude, when there was clearly no possibility of a behavior learned by rote. Octopuses are outstanding puzzle solvers, sometimes surpassing the abilities of a child when presented with a new and unknown puzzle. I won’t fault St Thomas for coming to his conclusions based on the limited information available to him. He lived in a time when there was little distinction between religion and science, so his insights must be interpreted in that light. One of the challenges in this discussion is that we bring our own human perspective to it. Neither you nor I can know if an Orca has a concept of zero. We may think that the capacity to know differential calculus is some great endowment from God, while an Orca may dismiss that as trivia compared to the abstract thinking which it is capable. You just can’t prove much about the mind of an animal.
 
Rock Happy, as a Christian you are surely familiar with C.S. Lewis, right? He is very strongly against the practice of Chronological Snobbery. St. Thomas Aquinas used logic to figure things out, and didn’t need neuroscience to know these things. Watch the actions of dogs, horses, and dolphins for long periods of time. Observation and experience, combined with the beautiful human intellect, can figure out a lot with regards to the natural world. šŸ™‚
 
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