Getting married outdoors with no ordained minister

[His_helpmeet]

Pardon but scandal? How may I ask would this create scandal? I mean none of this to be rude at all.

If this was the 1800’s or early 1900’s yes I can see perhaps some scandal.

My cousin and her husband got married at a wonderful rustic barn and there where small children there also I believe. It was a wonderful wedding and one of the best I have been to in a long time. Marriage to me is about love and it sits at the core of all of them I would hope.
I know it was once done for money and status but that has changed so much.

I am so happy for the OP’s relatives and I wish them the best in the world.

I do hope I have not been rude.

Best Wishes,
SilverLight

As an attendee you are “standing up” for the couple and approving what they are doing. To indicate that you approve of an invalid marriage is not appropriate.

Confession here: Hubby and I married outside the Church initially because he was in the process of having his first marriage declared invalid. (I was not the cause of the split-up; they’d been separated for over a year and had already initiated divorce proceedings when I entered the picture. There was overwhelming evidence that the marriage was not valid and had never been valid from the get-go.) We had every intention of having our marriage convalidated when the process was complete and we were sacramentally married about a year and a half later. Our friends and family came to our civil wedding. Interestingly, my grandmother even came - and she is a VERY traditional Catholic in many respects. We did tell Grandma that we were planning to have the marriage convalidated eventually. My point, though, is that OUR situation was very different from the OP’s son’s situation, most likely. It appears that they have no intention of EVER being married in the Church.

 

[jtauke]

I have no idea what you are saying.

What part do you need me to spell out for you?

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

What part do you need me to spell out for you?

I guess all of it…

 

[jtauke]

I guess all of it…

Yeah…its pretty straightforward. Soooo.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Yeah…its pretty straightforward. Soooo.

Ok then, back to the op.

What does the op think might have happened that her son is going to enter into something that he may not understand in a sacramental way. It’s a common problem these days and it will s sad that many Catholics or society in general cannot define something as basic as marriage.
I think it is a parents responsibility to instill the sacraments and thier meaning into thier child. My kids know the Catholic view of marriage and I’m confident they will act accordingly. Or at least be educated enough to explain why they choose differently.

 

[ccmcmg]

As an attendee you are “standing up” for the couple and approving what they are doing. To indicate that you approve of an invalid marriage is not appropriate.

Actually, my priest spoke with other priests to confirm, before saying we could attend the ceremony, but to tread carefully so as not to give the appearance of approving of it. We could not participate as members of the wedding party. We are to be careful even with our choice of cards.

However, my husband told me that his family (parents/siblings) didn’t attend his brother’s first wedding, which was outside of the Church.

In my own case, my priest has told me, with the same answer of priests of longer tenure behind him, that we attend as guests.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Actually, my priest spoke with other priests to confirm, before saying we could attend the ceremony, but to tread carefully so as not to give the appearance of approving of it. We could not participate as members of the wedding party. We are to be careful even with our choice of cards.

However, my husband told me that his family (parents/siblings) didn’t attend his brother’s first wedding, which was outside of the Church.

In my own case, my priest has told me, with the same answer of priests of longer tenure behind him, that we attend as guests.

I think your priest is wise.

 

[SuperLuigi]

I’m just pointing out that we have no evidence that they are the great people the op said. We do have evidence that they are not faithful Catholics.

For the record I have said she should attend.

I’m not so sure at all. I’d get advice from a priest on that.

 

[SuperLuigi]

Actually, my priest spoke with other priests to confirm, before saying we could attend the ceremony, but to tread carefully so as not to give the appearance of approving of it. We could not participate as members of the wedding party. We are to be careful even with our choice of cards.

However, my husband told me that his family (parents/siblings) didn’t attend his brother’s first wedding, which was outside of the Church.

In my own case, my priest has told me, with the same answer of priests of longer tenure behind him, that we attend as guests.

If you’re getting advice from a priest on this, that’s not something we can countermand on here.

You’ve done your due diligence.

 

[ccmcmg]

If you’re getting advice from a priest on this, that’s not something we can countermand on here.

You’ve done your due diligence.

I agree. I am just sharing my own experience, and my best advice is to visit with your priest. They love us and want us in Heaven, too!

 

[SilverLight]

As an attendee you are “standing up” for the couple and approving what they are doing. To indicate that you approve of an invalid marriage is not appropriate.

Confession here: Hubby and I married outside the Church initially because he was in the process of having his first marriage declared invalid. (I was not the cause of the split-up; they’d been separated for over a year and had already initiated divorce proceedings when I entered the picture. There was overwhelming evidence that the marriage was not valid and had never been valid from the get-go.) We had every intention of having our marriage convalidated when the process was complete and we were sacramentally married about a year and a half later. Our friends and family came to our civil wedding. Interestingly, my grandmother even came - and she is a VERY traditional Catholic in many respects. We did tell Grandma that we were planning to have the marriage convalidated eventually. My point, though, is that OUR situation was very different from the OP’s son’s situation, most likely. It appears that they have no intention of EVER being married in the Church.

Look you have your own beliefs and that’s fine I accept that and I would never make you change that. I respectfully ask that you let me do the same. I would still go to that wedding because we love the sinner not the sin. I am there for my family member or friend. If you don’t want to go to support someone that’s fine it’s up to you okay. Let’s live and let live please.

 

[ThyKingdomCome]

Actually, my priest spoke with other priests to confirm, before saying we could attend the ceremony, but to tread carefully so as not to give the appearance of approving of it. We could not participate as members of the wedding party. We are to be careful even with our choice of cards.

Let’s be practical. How exactly does one attend a ceremony, and not give the appearance of approving it? Isn’t that what attendance at a special event usually stands for - approval and support? Isn’t that why some invitations use wording like, “celebrate with us”? What do you say to the couple after the ceremony (aside from Congratulations) that doesn’t give that appearance, but that doesn’t offend them on their special day? What do you say to the guests who are so happy about the wedding and try to make conversation about it all? What sort of gift do you give that says, “I don’t actually approve of this wedding”? What sort of demeanor does one have at a wedding and reception that does not give the indication of approval?

I guess I don’t understand how one can be a guest, smile and clap, talk affirmingly with the other guests, etc… and not give the appearance that one approves of the event. Certainly one COULD choose to not smile or clap, and to tell the other guests what they really think, but wouldn’t that be rude behavior for a wedding? Would the bridal couple really want someone at their wedding who refused to act happy about it?

It just seems to me that to attend something you don’t approve of, and to “be sure not to give the impression of approval” you would have to actually state that you disapprove. When I imagine this scenario, I can’t help but thinking of a hypothetical rebellious teen, standing with their family at an event with their arms crossed and a scowl on their face, making sure that everyone knows they don’t want to be with their family. After all, the more obedient teen who ALSO doesn’t want to be at this hypothetical event, but who stands with her family and chats pleasantly with others, will give people the impression they are happy to be there. It is the same to me, with a wedding. I simply don’t see how one can be truly honest and a good guest at the same time.

 

[estesbob]

You can have a priest as far as I know at a location though like a beach for instance. The location does not matter much to be honest well to me anyway.

Without specific permission from the Bishop (which is rarely granted) this is not permitted I lived in a Mountain town for years and our Priest was often approached by Catholic Couples who wanted to be married outside in front of the mountains. His standard reply was “why would you want to get married in front of the mountains when you can get married in front of the one who made them?”

 

[estesbob]

Let’s be practical. How exactly does one attend a ceremony, and not give the appearance of approving it? Isn’t that what attendance at a special event usually stands for - approval and support? Isn’t that why some invitations use wording like, “celebrate with us”? What do you say to the couple after the ceremony (aside from Congratulations) that doesn’t give that appearance, but that doesn’t offend them on their special day? What do you say to the guests who are so happy about the wedding and try to make conversation about it all? What sort of gift do you give that says, “I don’t actually approve of this wedding”? What sort of demeanor does one have at a wedding and reception that does not give the indication of approval?

I guess I don’t understand how one can be a guest, smile and clap, talk affirmingly with the other guests, etc… and not give the appearance that one approves of the event. Certainly one COULD choose to not smile or clap, and to tell the other guests what they really think, but wouldn’t that be rude behavior for a wedding? Would the bridal couple really want someone at their wedding who refused to act happy about it?

It just seems to me that to attend something you don’t approve of, and to “be sure not to give the impression of approval” you would have to actually state that you disapprove. When I imagine this scenario, I can’t help but thinking of a hypothetical rebellious teen, standing with their family at an event with their arms crossed and a scowl on their face, making sure that everyone knows they don’t want to be with their family. After all, the more obedient teen who ALSO doesn’t want to be at this hypothetical event, but who stands with her family and chats pleasantly with others, will give people the impression they are happy to be there. It is the same to me, with a wedding. I simply don’t see how one can be truly honest and a good guest at the same time.

We struggled with this when my daughter married her girlfriend. in the end it didn’t matter because they went alone to a judge and had him perform the ceremony in his chambers. I think we would have went, however,. Not as sign of approval, they know our feelings, but to keep from causing a family rift and alienating our daughter . I dont know if that would have been the correct action and i got mixed signals from the clergy I talked to. I do know that these type of situations are much easier to deal with in the abstract than they are when they affect you personally.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

I agree with you. I would just go ahead and leave this question there: How can it not be revenge if you are preventing them to see their grandkids presumably for a “long time”?.

In my husband’s case, he hasn’t believed in god in 18 years or so. That’s just not going to change, and even if it did, the leap from believing in god to being Catholic is enormous.

Given that, he had 3 options: get married honestly and in the way that reflected our beliefs and values, lie and get married in the church, or never get married. Getting married honestly in the church was not possible.

By refusing to attend, his family would have been saying “Unless you are practicing the same faith we are, we would rather you not get married”. That fundamentally changes everything. It is the most basic rejection of the family he’s forming. That’s not someone either one of us would like to have around our family or our children.

 

[ccmcmg]

Let’s be practical. How exactly does one attend a ceremony, and not give the appearance of approving it? Isn’t that what attendance at a special event usually stands for - approval and support? Isn’t that why some invitations use wording like, “celebrate with us”? What do you say to the couple after the ceremony (aside from Congratulations) that doesn’t give that appearance, but that doesn’t offend them on their special day? What do you say to the guests who are so happy about the wedding and try to make conversation about it all? What sort of gift do you give that says, “I don’t actually approve of this wedding”? What sort of demeanor does one have at a wedding and reception that does not give the indication of approval?

I guess I don’t understand how one can be a guest, smile and clap, talk affirmingly with the other guests, etc… and not give the appearance that one approves of the event. Certainly one COULD choose to not smile or clap, and to tell the other guests what they really think, but wouldn’t that be rude behavior for a wedding? Would the bridal couple really want someone at their wedding who refused to act happy about it?

It just seems to me that to attend something you don’t approve of, and to “be sure not to give the impression of approval” you would have to actually state that you disapprove. When I imagine this scenario, I can’t help but thinking of a hypothetical rebellious teen, standing with their family at an event with their arms crossed and a scowl on their face, making sure that everyone knows they don’t want to be with their family. After all, the more obedient teen who ALSO doesn’t want to be at this hypothetical event, but who stands with her family and chats pleasantly with others, will give people the impression they are happy to be there. It is the same to me, with a wedding. I simply don’t see how one can be truly honest and a good guest at the same time.

My priest and I have spoken about this extensively. He has guided me on this, as I said, after speaking with a round table of priests. This is not the first, nor will it be the last, time it has arisen within the Faith.

Again, when we have such great resources within our Faith, of being able to speak with someone who has dedicated their lives to serving God and serving us, let’s use them and respect them.

I’m not going to be a sourpuss. I’m also not going to congratulate them on their ‘wedding’. I’m following God’s Will, by the Church. It’s not that I don’t want my sister to be happy; I want her to be happy eternally, which doesn’t always coincide with what we think our happiness on earth is.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Let’s be practical. How exactly does one attend a ceremony, and not give the appearance of approving it? Isn’t that what attendance at a special event usually stands for - approval and support? Isn’t that why some invitations use wording like, “celebrate with us”? What do you say to the couple after the ceremony (aside from Congratulations) that doesn’t give that appearance, but that doesn’t offend them on their special day? What do you say to the guests who are so happy about the wedding and try to make conversation about it all? What sort of gift do you give that says, “I don’t actually approve of this wedding”? What sort of demeanor does one have at a wedding and reception that does not give the indication of approval?

I guess I don’t understand how one can be a guest, smile and clap, talk affirmingly with the other guests, etc… and not give the appearance that one approves of the event. Certainly one COULD choose to not smile or clap, and to tell the other guests what they really think, but wouldn’t that be rude behavior for a wedding? Would the bridal couple really want someone at their wedding who refused to act happy about it?

It just seems to me that to attend something you don’t approve of, and to “be sure not to give the impression of approval” you would have to actually state that you disapprove. When I imagine this scenario, I can’t help but thinking of a hypothetical rebellious teen, standing with their family at an event with their arms crossed and a scowl on their face, making sure that everyone knows they don’t want to be with their family. After all, the more obedient teen who ALSO doesn’t want to be at this hypothetical event, but who stands with her family and chats pleasantly with others, will give people the impression they are happy to be there. It is the same to me, with a wedding. I simply don’t see how one can be truly honest and a good guest at the same time.

My MIL talked to her priest about it when we were engaged and hubby was diagnosed with cancer. My MIL was very conflicted because she was suddenly very happy that we were living together even though we weren’t married, since I was the only family either of us had within 700 miles. I took very good care of him and dealt with all the medical and familial stuff. She felt guilty that she was no longer against us living together because she didn’t want her son to be alone.

The priest told her she could absolutely feel love, gratitude, and even joy at our relationship while recognizing that it was better for him to have me there than not. That’s not in conflict with wishing we were married validly and wishing we had done so before moving in together.

I’m assuming other parents are as capable of these complex and nuanced feelings as she is.

 

[ThyKingdomCome]

My priest and I have spoken about this extensively. He has guided me on this, as I said, after speaking with a round table of priests. This is not the first, nor will it be the last, time it has arisen within the Faith.

Again, when we have such great resources within our Faith, of being able to speak with someone who has dedicated their lives to serving God and serving us, let’s use them and respect them.

I’m not going to be a sourpuss. I’m also not going to congratulate them on their ‘wedding’. I’m following God’s Will, by the Church. It’s not that I don’t want my sister to be happy; I want her to be happy eternally, which doesn’t always coincide with what we think our happiness on earth is.

Ok, and I’m not saying you should disobey your priest. He, and those he spoke to, may be absolutely right. I certainly wouldn’t assume that I know what is right for your situation better than they all do.

While I do believe that we need to respect them, I don’t think the fact that they have dedicated their lives to serving God and us means they are always right. I could list off a whole bunch of priests who are just as dedicated, who have led people far astray. They are human after all. And I bet every priest, being human and all, has a story that he could tell about a time he regretted advice he gave. And I am eternally thankful for the laypeople who helped me understand the truth after I had been led astray by well-intentioned priests who preached major error.

So given that, my post is part giving people something to think about - because I think there really is a logical issue with this matter that should be addressed. And with respect for the dedication of the priests, I don’t think my concerns are invalid. But my post is also a true question. If my priest gave me this advice, and if I intended fully to take it - I would ask him these follow up questions. If he just said, “go, but don’t give the impression…” I would be a total loss in terms of how to do that. So for you, or whoever has been in this situation, these are real questions:
–what do you say to the couple in the receiving line?
–what do you say when another guest speaks directly to you about how beautiful the wedding was, how perfect it was, how much this great couple deserves this etc…
–what do you say when someone who didn’t go to the wedding heard that you did go, and asks you about what the wedding was like?
–what if that person is a Catholic youth?

I would be interested in hearing answers, but I would also advise anyone who is going to be in this situation, to think about these questions and have a plan for how to deal with them when they arise.

 

[High_flyer]

Originally Posted by ccmcmc
Without specific permission from the Bishop (which is rarely granted) this is not permitted I lived in a Mountain town for years and our Priest was often approached by Catholic Couples who wanted to be married outside in front of the mountains. His standard reply was “why would you want to get married in front of the mountains when you can get married in front of the one who made them?”

All I can say is that I have been to many amazing outdoor weddings by Catholic priests that are valid. Case in point is my very own wedding. My wife (raised Catholic) wrote a letter for permission and was granted and indeed as has been for many of her friends and family members that also got married outside of a physical church, her sister also being one of them. Therefore we can conclude that ‘permission’ has been granted often. In my case, it was fully known that I am a non-believer. This of course was all done with ‘permission’ and going through pre-cana etc. Goes to show the church can accommodate! What was special was that the priest who married us was a family member of my wife.

 

[ccmcmg]

All I can say is that I have been to many amazing outdoor weddings by Catholic priests that are valid. Case in point is my very own wedding. My wife (raised Catholic) wrote a letter for permission and was granted and indeed as has been for many of her friends and family members that also got married outside of a physical church, her sister also being one of them. Therefore we can conclude that ‘permission’ has been granted often. In my case, it was fully known that I am a non-believer. This of course was all done with ‘permission’ and going through pre-cana etc. Goes to show the church can accommodate! What was special was that the priest who married us was a family member of my wife.

FYI, that’s not my quote as you’ve noted it as. It’s someone else’s.
Thanks.

Also, I don’t believe you attended a Mass in the Roman Catholic Church that was on a beach or in the mountains. A Catholic Mass Wedding Ceremony can only be celebrated in a physical church with the altar. Yes, Catholics are granted permission by their priests to marry within another faith’s ceremony, but that’s not the issue at hand here.