If she talked to her priest, I would say she’s done her due diligence in the matter.My MIL talked to her priest about it when we were engaged and hubby was diagnosed with cancer. My MIL was very conflicted because she was suddenly very happy that we were living together even though we weren’t married, since I was the only family either of us had within 700 miles. I took very good care of him and dealt with all the medical and familial stuff. She felt guilty that she was no longer against us living together because she didn’t want her son to be alone.
The priest told her she could absolutely feel love, gratitude, and even joy at our relationship while recognizing that it was better for him to have me there than not. That’s not in conflict with wishing we were married validly and wishing we had done so before moving in together.
I’m assuming other parents are as capable of these complex and nuanced feelings as she is.
It’s quite a leap to go from “we’d rather you not get married” to “we are likely to harm your children or undermine your parental authority.”In my husband’s case, he hasn’t believed in god in 18 years or so. That’s just not going to change, and even if it did, the leap from believing in god to being Catholic is enormous.
Given that, he had 3 options: get married honestly and in the way that reflected our beliefs and values, lie and get married in the church, or never get married. Getting married honestly in the church was not possible.
By refusing to attend, his family would have been saying “Unless you are practicing the same faith we are, we would rather you not get married”. That fundamentally changes everything. It is the most basic rejection of the family he’s forming. That’s not someone either one of us would like to have around our family or our children.
You must have misread my post.** I **was the child who got married out of the church. It was through my parents faith that brought me back to the church. We slowly re built our relationship, especially after my first was born a year later.Refusing to attend your child’s wedding is probably a death sentence for the relationship with your kid.
If you’re dead to them, how can you hope to bring them back into the fold?
Yes…God bless you. Jesus said that, meaning that He comes first in all situations. And, of course, putting Jesus first needs to be expressed politely.You must have misread my post.** I **was the child who got married out of the church. It was through my parents faith that brought me back to the church. We slowly re built our relationship, especially after my first was born a year later.
Didn’t Jesus say that he didn’t come to bring peace, but rather cause division between father and son and mother and daughter etc…?
Are you serious? If you tell someone that you don’t think they should ever marry, you don’t recognize their spouse as their spouse, and that’s how it will be unless they start practicing your faith, you’ve just blown up the relationship. At that point, you’re lucky to get a phone call once a year, so feeling entitled to a relationship with the grandkids is beyond the pale.It’s quite a leap to go from “we’d rather you not get married” to “we are likely to harm your children or undermine your parental authority.”
Let’s be real here - how many grandparents of children born to unwed 18 year old girls would have agreed with the statement, “I would rather you not get pregnant when you are unwed and 18.” I’m gonna guess almost all parents. And yet, outside of abusive or very dysfunctional situations, if that situation does arise, and if the girl keeps the baby, almost all of these parents will also love those babies and want to have a relationship with them. Should they be denied that because they disagree with their daughter’s life choices that led up to the baby being born?
Look, I understand that you would your feelings would be hurt, and I understand that you would feel rejected, especially if you don’t understand or agree with their attachment to their beliefs and the rules of their faith or with their idea of following their conscience. But even so, “you won’t ever get to see your grandchildren” to people who don’t pose a threat is, from the outside, very obviously a statement of punishment, and if said prior to the decisions being made, of manipulation. That severity of restriction simply is not a natural consequence to not attending a wedding.
I am serious. I didn’t say parents wouldn’t attend a baby shower, I said they wouldn’t have approved of the actions that got the young girl pregnant. Your analogy is off. In this analogy, not approving of the wedding is equivalent to not approving of the premarital sex. Attending the baby shower is about welcoming the baby.Are you serious? If you tell someone that you don’t think they should ever marry, you don’t recognize their spouse as their spouse, and that’s how it will be unless they start practicing your faith, you’ve just blown up the relationship. At that point, you’re lucky to get a phone call once a year, so feeling entitled to a relationship with the grandkids is beyond the pale.
If your rejecting the marriage, then you have to realize that the family that’s being formed is not going to welcome you with open arms. Leave and cleave.
Maybe my mom is just extra wonderful, but if I had gotten pregnant at 18, she would have wished I waited 10 years. But she would have attended the shower, would have been there when the baby was born, and would have celebrated and encouraged me as a mother, even while she worried for my future. Simply put, she wouldn’t act out.
Is God not in the mountains?Without specific permission from the Bishop (which is rarely granted) this is not permitted I lived in a Mountain town for years and our Priest was often approached by Catholic Couples who wanted to be married outside in front of the mountains. His standard reply was “why would you want to get married in front of the mountains when you can get married in front of the one who made them?”
He is physically present in the tabernacle at the ChurchIs God not in the mountains?
Is God not where two or more are gathered in his name?
BlueEyedLady makes a good point, though. These are adult children. Yes, they may have been (basically forcibly - they certainly didn’t consent at the time) baptized in the Catholic faith…but they have chosen to leave as adults. And as adults, they are permitted free will in this. By choosing to impose the standards of the Catholic religion upon unbelievers (by virtue of basically a technicality, the Catholic declaration that no one can actually “leave”), the parents are publicly undermining the couple’s authority if the parents choose to skip the wedding over religion. I absolutely grant you, ThyKingdomCome, that this is a valid choice for the parents, as would be not contributing toward costs, hosting dinners, etc. However, I can certainly see how making a public statement of disapproval, via those actions, would raise the question of how the Catholic grandparents might behave in the future around the grandchildren. The young couple might give the folks the benefit of the doubt, but if those grandparents feel similarly called to make a stink about baptism, etc, for the babies, it would be no surprise to see the door firmly closed and the hope of future reconciliation with your faith…well…squashed.I have no idea if your in laws believe everything the Church teaches. But if I were in their situation, and if it were my child marrying outside of the church, it wouldn’t matter what they would threaten me with - that wouldn’t cause me to stop believing all of my faith. It also would be entirely possible for me to love my child, love their significant other, think of them as a person that I love to be around, and be capable of being kind and pleasant and respectful of them and have a relationship with my grandkids without undermining their authority. But it still wouldn’t change that I’d believe what my church teaches. How sad that would be if my kid decided that my love and respect wasn’t good enough to earn their love and respect.
The same standard your own Orthodox Church imposes. The Orthodox would also consider such a marriage invalid (although they might not use that word) and in fact the person would excommunicate themselves by the act. And, unlike the Catholic Church, there is no dispensation from form in Orthodoxy.By choosing to impose the standards
What does Orthodoxy have to do with any of this? This man and woman are adults, apparently paying their own way, etc. One of them has actively left the Catholic Church. The other has never been a member, ever. They’re both “outside” of my Church, too, but I’m not trying to tell them they must convert and have an Orthodox crowning lest they be damned for all eternity, here. That’s sort of where this discussion is pointing. In part, it stems from the technicalities of the Catholic “rule book”…and the question is, where can you draw the line publicly in your expectations of who must be bound by it?The same standard your own Orthodox Church imposes. The Orthodox would also consider such a marriage invalid (although they might not use that word) and in fact the person would excommunicate themselves by the act. And, unlike the Catholic Church, there is no dispensation from form in Orthodoxy.
Not true.If you want to compare it to Orthodoxy, 1ke, a couple such as this would clearly already have been long excommunicated for lack of participation, as I’m sure you know. As far as the state of their marriage, we would not presume to judge. All we know is it was outside the Church, and we trust that God will keep them in His care. The majority of the WORLD is married outside of the Church! Lord have mercy on us all!
Noting the irony, as you list yourself as Orthodox and yet argue the position that Catholicism is trying to “impose” something on its own members as if it has no right to do so-- yet your own Church does this too-- and both Churches definitely claim the authority to do so.What does Orthodoxy have to do with any of this?
while the Orthodox actually don’t. They would require a couple converting to Orthodoxy to marry again.Non- catholics are not bound by this form. The Church presumes validity (without impediments) of non- catholic marriages.
Again with the irony, because the Orthodox actually don’t. They would require a couple converting to Orthodoxy to marry again.Non- catholics are not bound by this form. The Church presumes validity (without impediments) of non- catholic marriages.
Right. And the point is, one of the couple has left that faith/religion (as in, no longer practices/participates in any way, and hasn’t since the age of, what, 16? We’re talking years and years here), the other has never been a part of it. So while there’s the “ideal” of what the Catholic Church says should happen, and there’s the “technicalities” of Roman Catholic canon law (whereby no one can leave, ever, no matter what they wish)…the bigger issue here seems to be of the laity, and their role in fraternal correction of former members.The same comes with the Catholic church, for HER MEMBERS. There is a form that must be followed in order for Catholics to consider themselves married.
Non- catholics are not bound by this form. The Church presumes validity (without impediments) of non- catholic marriages.
LOL - I believe we’re talking past one another. This couple is not a Catholic couple, yet you are pretending that they are. Orthodoxy recognizes that they are not Orthodox. The issue here is the expectations of former and non members. We have none. You attempt to continue to impose yours. shrug The irony I see is a Latin Catholic attempting to discuss Eastern Orthodox marriage as if it were akin to Latin Catholicism. (Hence the truth of your signature line.)Noting the irony, as you list yourself as Orthodox and yet argue the position that Catholicism is trying to “impose” something on its own members as if it has no right to do so-- yet your own Church does this too-- and both Churches definitely claim the authority to do so.
So here’s the question - is not attending something = making a stink? And would grandparents expressing their view to the parents that they wish their grandchildren could get baptized be a big enough offense to warrant all contact be cut off? Wouldn’t it make more sense to tell them, “no and we don’t want to discuss it anymore”? Choosing not to attend an event, does not mean that they would undermine the couple’s authority with their children. And as we have so far all agreed, one is certainly able to disagree with the circumstances surrounding the conception of a child, while fully embracing and loving the child. Again, if I were the parents of the couple in question, I would respect the free will of the adult couple. I would respect their right to make their own choices, even while I believed that they were unwise/risky (salvation-wise) choices. After all, they are adults. I would hope that I would be given the same respect - that MY right to be true to my conscience by quietly avoiding an event would be respected. That is what mature people do - we decide not to participate in actions that we disagree with, and we respect the rights of others to make different choices than our own. It’s not always easy, and feelings are sometimes bruised because it is hard to hear that someone thinks we are wrong, but we remind ourselves to respect the other’s free will and we move on. Then when we get to the grandkids stage of life, we have the same expectations. Mature parents of good will and who know the value of the grandchild-grandparent relationship will allow it to happen if it is not harming anyone even if they don’t see eye to eye on every important issue. And mature grandparents of good will, will love and dote on their grandchildren, and will not undermine the parental authority, even though they may not agree with every choice that the parents make. That’s how it works, when it works. If we only allowed relationships with family members who agreed with all of our choices, we’d never have relationships with anyone. I know that is true for myself. I am the only person in my family who has my views, and I know that both my siblings and parents have very strong feelings against many of my views. I also know that it is good for my kids to have relationships with them - good for my kids, and good for them. So I encourage those relationships. If need be, I am watchful, and at times I am on guard, but it is not necessary to cut off contact even though they think (to varying degrees) I’m a total loon when it comes to most of the things I value most. Excepting abuse/harm, family relationships are worth a little tolerance - in ALL directions.BlueEyedLady makes a good point, though. These are adult children. Yes, they may have been (basically forcibly - they certainly didn’t consent at the time) baptized in the Catholic faith…but they have chosen to leave as adults. And as adults, they are permitted free will in this. By choosing to impose the standards of the Catholic religion upon unbelievers (by virtue of basically a technicality, the Catholic declaration that no one can actually “leave”), the parents are publicly undermining the couple’s authority if the parents choose to skip the wedding over religion. I absolutely grant you, ThyKingdomCome, that this is a valid choice for the parents, as would be not contributing toward costs, hosting dinners, etc. However, I can certainly see how making a public statement of disapproval, via those actions, would raise the question of how the Catholic grandparents might behave in the future around the grandchildren. The young couple might give the folks the benefit of the doubt, but if those grandparents feel similarly called to make a stink about baptism, etc, for the babies, it would be no surprise to see the door firmly closed and the hope of future reconciliation with your faith…well…squashed.
I apologize for going off the rails a bit. It is true, you can’t make them have a church wedding. And you probably shouldn’t push it too much. The decision is whether or not YOU participate in the wedding they are having. It sounds like your priest is advising you to attend, and I won’t counter that personal advice.I thought I’d check back in on this conversation since I am the OP. Here are a few facts in the case…
I appreciate everyone’s feedback on my question. It’s a tough spot I am in. I will keep gently nudging this young couple to consider a church wedding but I can’t make them do it.
- My son was raised in the Catholic faith and was enthusiastic about it and seemed to believe the teachings until he got to be around 16 years of age. At that time he lost a good friend to cancer. This changed things for him. He had a hard time accepting that God could not save his friend. At that point, he began to drift away from the Church.
- His fiance is a kind and generous person and does love my son. I love her.
- My parish priest has advised me that to not attend the wedding would only be harmful to our relationship with our son and his wife.