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Urn
Guest
I think those that use labels like “NO parishes” are also a huge part of the problem!
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Greg_N
Guest
There is no such thing as a superficial or feel-good “BUY-IN” for parishioners Urn, the only “BUY-IN” was that which Christ purchased with his blood, and which is supposed to be the centre of the mass itself; The Sacrifice on Calvary.
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LucyLight
Guest
I want to clarify something here. People are mixing up what is masculine and what is feminine. Traditional Catholic prayer(contemplative) is considered feminine. Protestant prayer( raising hands, singing expressively etc.) is considered masculine. If you want to make Catholic worship more masculine look to Evangelicals.
I would propose feminine worship with more masculine style(action oriented) homilies.
Here is an interesting quick read on the subject.
mark-shea.com/fem.html
I would propose feminine worship with more masculine style(action oriented) homilies.
Here is an interesting quick read on the subject.
mark-shea.com/fem.html
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Greg_N
Guest
You’re right Lucy, this looks pretty feminine:
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
Compared to this:
http://theamericanjesus.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/pentecostal.jpg
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TerryJT
Guest
I have seen some great husband/wife youth leaders, and confirmation teachers. It would be a great benefit to young men to see more males in these positions as examples to emulate.
A protestant congregation I belonged to years ago used to have “football nights” for the men’s group. Pizza, football game, and a big screen TV. It was a popular fellowship that church guys could invite their friends to.
But again-you need men willing to step up to the plate and volunteer their time.
A protestant congregation I belonged to years ago used to have “football nights” for the men’s group. Pizza, football game, and a big screen TV. It was a popular fellowship that church guys could invite their friends to.
But again-you need men willing to step up to the plate and volunteer their time.
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edwest2
Guest
God is unconcerned about your gender, however, men and women have different but complementary qualities.
It is clear that in some cases, the point of the Mass is obscured: we are all there to worship, sing to and praise the Lord as His humble servants and friends. But a few examples mentioned here point to some degree of an earthly desire for status. We are brothers and sisters in Christ. We are not meant to be or feel estranged. Or divided.
If some strange or wrong practice is going on in your parish, try to put your emotions aside and present the facts, not guesses or assumptions, to your priest for clarification and explanation. If you believe that would not be wise, then contact your Bishop, and again, simply present the facts and ask for help, guidance and explanations.
Men don’t go to Mass for any number of reasons. Sadly, over the last 40 years, the attack on the family and the Church have left some feeling estranged or even embarrassed to go. After so many divorces, abortions, shacking up and God knows what else, some feel that the mess they’ve left behind is too much. I encourage men: go to Church, even just to pray. Know that God still loves you and wants you back, whatever your background.
Peace,
Ed
It is clear that in some cases, the point of the Mass is obscured: we are all there to worship, sing to and praise the Lord as His humble servants and friends. But a few examples mentioned here point to some degree of an earthly desire for status. We are brothers and sisters in Christ. We are not meant to be or feel estranged. Or divided.
If some strange or wrong practice is going on in your parish, try to put your emotions aside and present the facts, not guesses or assumptions, to your priest for clarification and explanation. If you believe that would not be wise, then contact your Bishop, and again, simply present the facts and ask for help, guidance and explanations.
Men don’t go to Mass for any number of reasons. Sadly, over the last 40 years, the attack on the family and the Church have left some feeling estranged or even embarrassed to go. After so many divorces, abortions, shacking up and God knows what else, some feel that the mess they’ve left behind is too much. I encourage men: go to Church, even just to pray. Know that God still loves you and wants you back, whatever your background.
Peace,
Ed
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josh987654321
Guest
I’m conflicted, some of what you say is miles wrong, yet some of it is accurate. But for starters, I most certainly do not agree with you by refuting the part of Elizabeth502’s post that you bolded and I will show you why below.
:dts:
Let’s look at this the other way around shall we?
Let’s say you have a friend and this friend say’s “I spend time with Cat out of obediance to him and his parents, it doesn’t matter if I feel like spending time with Cat or that I get anything out of spending time with Cat. I’m friends with Cat because he has asked me to be.”
Furthermore “It would be wonderful if I had a desire to spend time with Cat, but the fact that I don’t doesn’t make me any less of a friend to Cat.”
And “What makes me a friend of Cat is that I follow him to place I don’t want to go. I set aside my personal preferences, my hopes, my dreams, and my desires, and I spend time with Cat in places that I would rather not be in.”
The part I bolded would make this person sound like a good friend if they continued (Because I am good friends with Cat or because I love Cat) but compared to the rest of it, it doesn’t look very good does it?
So why is it a different story when it’s Christ?
Please read my privous post on this thread - forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=10964196&postcount=214
Like I said, if you think going to mass is doing Christ a favor, you got it all backwards my friend.
Quite true as Mark said - *If you have to offer excuses such as; what kind of hymns and music are being offered, better sermons, etc. etc. etc., just to get you to come to Mass, then maybe there are bigger issues that you have going on with your faith than just how Mass is being celebrated.
You have to have that passion for the Faith burning with fire inside you. To me, if you don’t have a deep, deep passion for Christ in your heart beforehand, then even if you do attend Mass, you will likely be just paying lip service and not much more. And this I speak from experience!..“This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.” Isaiah 29:13*
It is at the Mass that Christ feeds us with his body, blood, soul and divinity. Yet how many of us say “Thank you” for that? How many just tell him that we “Love” him and are so thankful for his enourmous gift of coming down and feeding us with his body, blood, soul and divinity?
It’s amazing how little priority people will give to the Holy Eucharist, Christ’s body, blood, soul and divinity.
The scenery may be breathtaking, but no where near as breathtaking as the Eucharist, as Christ.
I don’t mean to take something into this that you are not implying, but if you are suggesting that going to mass is getting down in the trenches and low paces, than I am deeply offended.
I don’t mean to pick on you or anything Cat in saying these things, it’s just that your post really stood out and a few of the posts here are going along similar lines, I’m hoping you will all understand what I am saying and be focused on rekindling that fire for Christ.
You guys need to read this!!! Please Cat I beg you to read this, it’s only a short 9 pages long!! -
**The Holy Mass **- loveandmercy.org/Eng-HM-Reg.pdf
God Bless
Thank you for reading
Josh
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Elizabeth502
Guest
Yes, I was glad someone else brought up what I did not have time to post earlier today.
The best setting for an all-male Mass is a retreat. They do have these, yes. (And for that matter, all-female retreats.) There are also couples retreats, which can be great, too. But retreats are extended opportunities to consider one’s place in the Church, one’s spirituality, the importance of one’s Mass attendance, etc., within a community of those who are there with similar purposes.
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Urn
Guest
You’re simply wrong about that. Terribly so.
Yes, certain things – particularly with regard to the sacraments are extremely well defined.
There are also many, many things that impact a parish that are not so well defined. Many issues that have more than one “correct” answer.
Proper brainstorming by qualified people is a very important tool to get to the real root of problems and come up with real solutions that will actually work.
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Urn
Guest
You also need pastors willing to allow such initiatives. In my parish it would create an underground war. Rooms (what few we have) getting intentionally “double booked”, “misplaced televisions”, etc.
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Greg_N
Guest
I’m sorry, but “group brainstorming” is not “critical” to running a sacred liturgy.
The Catholic Church is Universal; indeed the very word Catholic (from the greek phrase καθόλου katholou); denotes the meaning. The idea that lay parishioners need have some kind of “BUY-IN” by offering solutions as to how the liturgy functions is a dangerous concept, and one which I see contradicts (in many ways) the “universality” of the Church.
For example,
If I were to attend a Mass in another Parish or Diocese, I would/should be able to receive the complete and full abundance of graces from that sacred liturgy without any bizarre concept of a “BUY-IN”, as I would not have had the chance to do so. From this it appears that such a concept is by no means a necessity, so why the need?
In Pope Paul VI’s encyclical, Mysterium Fidei, he speaks of such ideas as “False and Disturbing Opinions”. He states:
This quote from ‘Mysterium Fidei’ highlights the erroneous notion of extolling ideas of “community” above the true substance of the liturgy (the Sacrifice). The idea of any so called pastoral “BUY-IN’s” can thus be categorized as something absent of any paramount importance, and even something dangerous. Your emphasis on the fact is rendered insignificant.
We need well trained Priests who will lead their flock, rather than let the flock lead them.
To a certain degree, allowing parishioners to voice their opinions on certain matters for the Parish Priest to consider is fine, but creating committees and “brainstorming” bureaucracies oft results in entities which carry more power than the priest (or attempt to), and to me the idea that parishioners are entitled to a “BUY-IN” sounds a little like “self-entitlement” and could lead to undermining authority.
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Urn
Guest
I was talking about a parish as a whole.
Only someone with a dearth of leadership and managerial skill would not know that.
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Cat
Guest
Father, get ready to do an awful lot of praying! I think you will find that many women in your parish, and many men, feel exactly the same way as the poster that you responded to.
**In trying to get men back to Mass, you must be careful not to take away leadership roles from women that the Church allows and encourages them to have.
**
The Catholic Church has always encouraged women to use their gifts and talents in building up the Church; e.g., St. Catherine of Sienna. Women are honored in the Catholic Church in a way that does not happen in many other churches and religions.
You must also be careful to fill leadership positions with those who are best able to do a good job. If a position in a parish opens up, who should be hired to fill it? Answer: The one who is best qualified to fill the position, right? It would be foolhardy to deny the most qualified applicant the job because she is not a male.
I know that certain posters believe that many women hold their positions because of some kind of “parish politics.” You would do well to try to eliminate “parish politics” from your parish and break up any “good ol’ boys” and “good ol’ girls” clubs. These types of politics hurt people and often destroy organizations. I can tell you horrible stories about what “politics” did to our local figure skating clubs.
But I think that many people are too quick to blame politics when things don’t go the way they think things should go.
Please be careful out there, Father! God has called you to this vocation, and He has given you the gifts you need to do a good job!
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clem456
Guest
Very good post illustrating that commitment and obedience are the essence of the Christian life, not feelings and preferences.
This thread illustrates the very thing it complains about. Too many men have swallowed our modern culture’s definition of masculinity. Obedience and commitment have become dirty words, we have exchanged them for a distorted sense of “masculine” self sufficiency and power. Meanwhile we go about saying “non serviam”, complaining and spewing resentment while our women do the spiritual work we don’t want to do. Our idea of rectifying our own spiritual problems is to blame it on our women staging a coup in the Church? Is that masculinity? Women don’t deserve this bit of cowardice, and it’s really not masculine at all.
Isn’t it interesting that men are complaining about the laicization of our parishes, while out of the other side of the mouth wanting the parish to change to their own tastes? Isn’t that interesting? Maybe women have filled many of these roles because we men have sat on our hands wishing (not very masculine) that we could have things our way. Good luck with having things to your own tastes, you’re wishing for a Christianity devoid of obedience and commitment, devoid of the cross…This Christianity doesn’t exist. I’d invite people to read the writings of some of our greatest male saints: many of them write in a manner that is considered effeminate by the distorted standards of masculinity you have bought into. Maybe we should stop complaining and be the change we’d like to see. If you can’t fill this or that role, don’t complain, be the best man you can be.
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clem456
Guest
Oh, and also…the Cross is the ultimate sign of worldly impotence, but real masculinity. Another one of those Christian paradoxes.
Here is the man, hands and feet tied, powerless, rejected, while the women below the cross do nothing but make themselves present and minister.
Here is the man, hands and feet tied, powerless, rejected, while the women below the cross do nothing but make themselves present and minister.
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clem456
Guest
In our parish much of ministry is family oriented. In many cases, where you see a wife serving in some capacity, a husband is also involved, and vice versa. The husband-wife relationship mirrors Christ’s sacrificial love for his Church. We have two deacons and a female pastoral associate who is responsible for sacrament prep. She does a great job. During sacrament prep both parents are expected to be present. If not, they get a personal “invitation”. This process has brought many men to fuller commitment both to their families and to the parish. They are made to see that spiritual commitment is not “women’s work”. In whatever way they are capable, they become part of the process.
Father Jones, in my experience, gaining commitment sometimes requires a finger in the chest (politely of course) and a direct request: “We need and expect your presence in this parish”. Simply ask them, or ask why they don’t come to Church. A knock on the door, a phone call, invite yourself for breakfast. And I can guarantee you that for every man you confront, a wife will be very supportive of that effort, cause she knows what the upside is for her marriage, her family, children, if her husband will get involved in his own salvation. If you can gain further commitment from the wife, the husband may follow. I just think these things are done one heart at a time, not by trying to make massive cultural changes. Our increased personal commitment as pastors, catechists, leaders, is what can bring that same out of others.
Father Jones, in my experience, gaining commitment sometimes requires a finger in the chest (politely of course) and a direct request: “We need and expect your presence in this parish”. Simply ask them, or ask why they don’t come to Church. A knock on the door, a phone call, invite yourself for breakfast. And I can guarantee you that for every man you confront, a wife will be very supportive of that effort, cause she knows what the upside is for her marriage, her family, children, if her husband will get involved in his own salvation. If you can gain further commitment from the wife, the husband may follow. I just think these things are done one heart at a time, not by trying to make massive cultural changes. Our increased personal commitment as pastors, catechists, leaders, is what can bring that same out of others.
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Sarabande
Guest
What’s the old saying? “Behind every strong man is an even a stronger woman” or something like that. A healthy relationship between husbands and wives take advantage of each other’s strengths to be the best they can be as a family and in everyday life. Sometimes I think men need prodding from their wives or girlfriends to get motivated and to do good things, if not great things.
You sound like you have a very healthy parish and that is wonderful.
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