Ghandi in hell?

[Jordan_Francis]

Gandhi may not have been a Christian, but he was certainly more Christian than many Christians I know.

When looking to his life and reading his writings such as his auto-biography we do see a flawed man coming from a specific historical context distant to us by almost century now. But one thing I do think is clear, he was modern Hindu Saint who did great things and challenged alot of prejudice and evil, even if he had some of his own. He had enormous courage, great ideals and labored always towards purification through selfless love.

I see a man clearly motivated and invigorated with the love of God whom he most certainly did believe in. That has to count for something. We have a God of love and mercy. I would not be quick to condmen him to hell. If my understanding of God and Gandhi is correct, he would be in heaven. But who am I to say?

 

[tacitus]

the problem in regards to budhism is it does not address much of anything when it comes down to the serious questions. who created me and the universe? why was i and the universe created? why were other creatures and people created? what is evil? why do people do bad things? what is love? why will i and every one else die? why do i have a soul? and how can it be saved? i find buddhism and no offence is intended to be mostly sychobable. it seems really self obsessed and i know the point of it is to lose the ego but i cant nor will i be able to make heads or tale so fit. i mean karma and the whole reincarnation thing destroys individualiity. god created all of us unique for a reason. also the thought of me returning as a bug or cat—indeed household cat is most likely the best bargain all grooping and play plus food is wierd.
this is off the topic of this thread but i had to respond. even your budhist response i dont quite understand. christ was very spacific as to who he was and why he came and what he promised. do dismiss him is a great sin. i know you know htis because at one time you were catholic but again no offence is intended.
ever yours and i will now pray for you the budhist on this thread that you come to know christ through all you have been through.
i hope this has foun dyou well

 

[tacitus]

what did ghandi say or do about the cast system/ i do not have a clue but im curious.
ever yours

 

[Gerry_Hunter]

Gerry Hunter, you seem to be having difficulty in answering this question. Tacitus asks it very specifically and you have turned it into a hypothetical.

Let me help you answer it by giving you some facts.

I was baptized, raised and educated as a Catholic. I no longer believe the Catholic Church is the one true Church. I no longer believe that Christ was the son of God. I no longer believe that there is a God. These statements are true and reflect my firmly held beliefs.

According to the teachings of the Catholic Church, will I be condemned to hell for all eternity?

That is the question. Tacitus deserves a straight answer.

Only a fool tries to directly answer a compound question, and the question is definately a compound one. It assumes that any human being can pronounce a definitive “yes” or “no” to the question as given, when it is for God the Son to determine the answer to the question.

As to the answer to your question above, the Church treaches that you have placed yourself in danger of eternal judgement, yes. However, neither she, nor any of her members can pronounce that judgement, and neither can anticipate it. However, she can assure all that the judgement will happen, and of what will place them in danger of condemnation at that judgement.

That’s not evasion. It is replying to the limits of what is possible, and not an inch further. To go further would be blasphemy, no matter what malevolent temptation is offered to attempt to get one to do so.

Blessings,

Gerry

PS: Calling me out by name, as you did in the quoted post, is very rude. Cut it out.

 

[notself]

the problem in regards to budhism is it does not address much of anything when it comes down to the serious questions. who created me and the universe? why was i and the universe created? why were other creatures and people created? what is evil? why do people do bad things? what is love? why will i and every one else die? why do i have a soul? and how can it be saved? i find buddhism and no offence is intended to be mostly sychobable. it seems really self obsessed and i know the point of it is to lose the ego but i cant nor will i be able to make heads or tale so fit. i mean karma and the whole reincarnation thing destroys individualiity. god created all of us unique for a reason. also the thought of me returning as a bug or cat—indeed household cat is most likely the best bargain all grooping and play plus food is wierd.
this is off the topic of this thread but i had to respond. even your budhist response i dont quite understand. christ was very spacific as to who he was and why he came and what he promised. do dismiss him is a great sin. i know you know htis because at one time you were catholic but again no offence is intended.
ever yours and i will now pray for you the budhist on this thread that you come to know christ through all you have been through.
i hope this has foun dyou well

Thank you.

 

[Bennie_P]

what did ghandi say or do about the cast system/ i do not have a clue but im curious.
ever yours

He comdemned those that didn’t treat those in the lower castes with respect and love, but he never comdemned the caste system itself, it is part of his belief system. That is, each is born into his place/station and should seek thier vocation based on thier birth.

 

[Delraek]

This is from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
*
“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338 *

 

[Delraek]

I should have posted this also (from the Catechism):
*
The Church and non-Christians

839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325

The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”,328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329

840 And when one considers the future, God’s People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."330

842 The Church’s bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:

All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .331

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:

Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333

845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son’s Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is “the world reconciled.” She is that bark which “in the full sail of the Lord’s cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world.” According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah’s ark, which alone saves from the flood.334 *

 

[Gerry_Hunter]

FYI:

notself has genuinely apologized for calling me out, and I have accepted.

Gerry

 

[Publisher]

He comdemned those that didn’t treat those in the lower castes with respect and love, but he never comdemned the caste system itself, it is part of his belief system. That is, each is born into his place/station and should seek thier vocation based on thier birth.

Paul never condemned slavery either but instructed slaves to obey their masters and be content with their lot, so I don’t undertand the point you’re making. We now believe that slavery is an evil institution…the caste system too is one of injustice and misery.

 

[notself]

"These two are fools. Which two? The one who doesn’t see his/her transgression as a transgression, and the one who doesn’t rightfully pardon another who has confessed his/her transgression. These two are fools.

“These two are wise. Which two? The one who sees his/her transgression as a transgression, and the one who rightfully pardons another who has confessed his/her transgression. These two are wise.”

— AN 2.21

Metta
notself

 

[JoeyWarren]

Well…if my signature is any clue…

 

[Bennie_P]

Paul never condemned slavery either but instructed slaves to obey their masters and be content with their lot, so I don’t undertand the point you’re making. We now believe that slavery is an evil institution…the caste system too is one of injustice and misery.

I believe you not fully understanding Paul nor his writings. Though politically he was not an abolitionist, he didn’t fully accept slavery either.

Philemon 1:15 - 17 *Perhaps this is why he was separated from you for a while, so that you could have him back forever, no longer as a slave but better than a slave-as a dear brother, especially to me, but even more so to you, both as a person and as a believer. **So if you consider me a partner, welcome him as you would welcome me. *

Gandhi Lived 1900 years after Paul. The English had abolished slavery the previous century. Though he was a great politically leader he was far from being a saint or a better Christian as some propose in this thread, in order to be a better Christian first you have to accept Christ and his teachings. Many of his contemporaries saw him as being just as much as a racist, if not more then the English. He didn’t want to share power equally with the untouchables though he taught “tolerance” and respect toward them.

Many praise him for his ideology of non-violence which in reality is just a form self-righteous violence. IMHO, the idea of non-violence civil disobedience is just newspeak for another form of violence. In the ways Gandhi used it, he forced confrontation to provoke violence out of his opposition, in order to bring commendation upon his opposition. People died because of his actions; in my eyes he was just as responsible for those people deaths as the British.
As to Gandhi’s final destination that is fully up to God. As to judgment on his legacy as a politician that is open to debate.

MR. GANDHI AND THE EMANCIPATION OF THE UNTOUCHABLES ambedkar.org/

Both say their war is a war for freedom. If that is so both have a duty to declare what their war aims are. What does Mr. Gandhi propose to do after he gets his victory over the British? Does he propose to use the freedom he hopes to get to make the Untouchables free or will he allow the freedom he gets to be used to endow the Hindus with more power than they now possess, to hold the Untouchables as their bondsmen ? Will Mr. Gandhi arid Hindus establish a New Older or will they be content with rehabilitation of the traditional Hindu India, with its castes and its untouchability, with its denial of Liberty, Equality and Fraternity? I should think that these questions should be asked by those American friends to Mr. Gandhi and the Hindus who are helping them in this so-called war for Freedom. These questions are legitimate and pertinent. It is only answers to such questions which will enable these American friends to know whether Mr. Gandhi’s war is a war for freedom or a war for power. These questions are not merely pertinent and legitimate, they are also necessary. The reason is obvious to those who know the Hindus. The Hindus have an innate and inveterate conservatism and they have a religion which is incompatible with liberty, equality and fratemity i. e. with democracy. Inequality, no doubt, exists everywhere in the world. It is largely to conditions and circumstances. But it never has had the support of religion. With the Hindus it is different. There is not only inequality in Hindu Society but inequality is the official doctrine of the Hindu religion. The Hindu has no will to equality.

His inclination and his attitude are opposed to the democratic doctrine of one man one value. Every Hindu is a social Tory and political Radical. Mr Gandhi is no exception to this rule. He presents himself to the world as a liberal but his liberalism is only a very thin veneer which sits very lightly on him as dust does on one’s boots. You scratch him and you will find that underneath his liberalism he is a blue blooded Tory. He stands for the cursed caste. He is a fanatic Hindu upholding the Hindu religion.

The link will not take you directly to the document I’m quoting, you will have to do a search on the web page by the document title.

My point though, Ghandi should be judge as any other politician, he was far from being a religious leader people want to make his myth into being.

As to Heaven or Hell? he had, or has the same opportunity as any of us.

 

[fatima1917]

Now, I don’t want to darken a man’s name after he is dead but I distinctly remember Paul Harvey saying on his radio program several years ago that Ghandi took young women to his bed after he was up in age and famous. Anyone hear about this also?

 

[inJESUS]

Ghandi in hell?

When Peter looked around and saw that young disciple whom Jesus loved, he asked, “Well, what about him? How will he fare?”

Jesus replied , “What business of yours is it if I should decide for this man to stay alive on earth until I come?”

So i guess Jesus’ reply would be : mind your own business

 

[tacitus]

true but this thread has led to more serious issues. like salvation in general and how do we get it in perticular.
hpe this has found you well

 

[inJESUS]

true but this thread has led to more serious issues. like salvation in general and how do we get it in perticular.
hpe this has found you well

that’s why i quoted the title and replied accordingly catch up later with the “serious issues” thx.

 

[notself]

Now, I don’t want to darken a man’s name after he is dead but I distinctly remember Paul Harvey saying on his radio program several years ago that Ghandi took young women to his bed after he was up in age and famous. Anyone hear about this also?

Why else would you spread something you have no proof of?

Even if the story is true, what benefit is it to bring it up when the man is dead and cannot explain or defend himself?

"Monks, a statement endowed with five factors is well-spoken, not ill-spoken. It is blameless & unfaulted by knowledgeable people. Which five?

“It is spoken at the right time. It is spoken in truth. It is spoken affectionately. It is spoken beneficially. It is spoken with a mind of good-will.”
— AN 5.198

 

[swariffin]

what does the church teach? i am just trying to figure this out. we must say that if everyone is saved then what does being a christian and following the christ mean. clearly there is and must be a somehting that devides a pagan a satanist an atheist and so on from those who accept christ. accepting and following christ is a very hard way if you can believe in nothing and still get into heaven then it sounds fishy thtas all. a bit postmodernist. the church has been very clear through out hstory why now is it hard for catholics and i guess orthodox to say christ came and was naile dto a cross for our sins and he came to save those who will accept him.
i hope this has found you well

The RC as well as the bible do not tell specifically who goes to Heaven (except Elijah and Jesus). But the bible gives many criteria of who goes to heaven and who does not. Take Mat 25:31-46 for example. Mat 5:9: “Blessed are those who bring peace, for they will be called the children of God”. The verse never mentions that such persons must be baptised first. Therefore, we believe as mentioned in the Lumen Gentium, that the RC believes some truth in other religions too. As God reveals himself to human, and as human came from different cultures and regions, it is normal that we, human, will perceive Gods differently. Just like a story of 4 blind men trying to figure out the shape of an elephant. All 4 will come with 4 different answers, and yet all 4 are correct with respect to each of their individual observations. The problem is when any one of them forcing his perception to the other 3.

Therefore, the RC believes that a moslem, a buddhist, a hindu, Gandhi, or even an atheist could enter heaven. God will not judge people based of a specific religion. We, human being is created in accordance with the image of God. Will an atheist protect his/her children at all cost when the situation appear? Yes, I believe they will. Even animals protect their offspring. Supposed an atheist had a hamburger for his lunch. And, he encountered a very thin boy, looked so pale and weak, laid on the side of the street and begged for food. The boy’s hollow eye were looking directly at him, and his very tiny hand was strech for him and crying. How many percent the probability that the atheist would give his lunch to the boy? I believe it will be more than 50%. More than one case, that a soldier drop himself on top of a grenade, and die protecting his friends. Notself is right to say that it is better being a non christian, rather than killing people after going out from a mass. Remember also that eventhough Jesus hates sins, He loves sinners. With respect to this thread, I am not sure exactly where Gandhi is now, but I am sure that the salvation of Jesus Christ also available for him.

 

[Potato1]

The RC as well as the bible do not tell specifically who goes to Heaven (except Elijah and Jesus). But the bible gives many criteria of who goes to heaven and who does not. Take Mat 25:31-46 for example. Mat 5:9: “Blessed are those who bring peace, for they will be called the children of God”. The verse never mentions that such persons must be baptised first. Therefore, we believe as mentioned in the Lumen Gentium, that the RC believes some truth in other religions too. As God reveals himself to human, and as human came from different cultures and regions, it is normal that we, human, will perceive Gods differently. Just like a story of 4 blind men trying to figure out the shape of an elephant. All 4 will come with 4 different answers, and yet all 4 are correct with respect to each of their individual observations. The problem is when any one of them forcing his perception to the other 3.

Therefore, the RC believes that a moslem, a buddhist, a hindu, Gandhi, or even an atheist could enter heaven. God will not judge people based of a specific religion. We, human being is created in accordance with the image of God. Will an atheist protect his/her children at all cost when the situation appear? Yes, I believe they will. Even animals protect their offspring. Supposed an atheist had a hamburger for his lunch. And, he encountered a very thin boy, looked so pale and weak, laid on the side of the street and begged for food. The boy’s hollow eye were looking directly at him, and his very tiny hand was strech for him and crying. How many percent the probability that the atheist would give his lunch to the boy? I believe it will be more than 50%. More than one case, that a soldier drop himself on top of a grenade, and die protecting his friends. Notself is right to say that it is better being a non christian, rather than killing people after going out from a mass. Remember also that eventhough Jesus hates sins, He loves sinners. With respect to this thread, I am not sure exactly where Gandhi is now, but I am sure that the salvation of Jesus Christ also available for him.

Wow, learn the faith. We teach that many people are in heaven. Mary for one. All the saints. Biblically we know the thief on the cross was promised paradise. While we HOPE and PRAY for the salvation of others (it is our job as Catholics to do so) we have no examples by the Church of a single time that after the institution of the resurection and babtism anyone who is not Christian in heaven. While we hope that many of them are it is our job to tell people how to get to heaven not condemn others to hell. And the way to heaven is Jesus. Evangelize and do not mistake your own sense of justice and mercy for what God’s justice and mercy are.