Ghosts

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The mere fact that we are questioning doctrine, trying to figure out if a ghost is really someone from Purgatory or someone from another as yet unknown place means that the devil has already attacked - and won over - a small portion of someone’s faith.
Wow, that wasn’t too rash an assertion. Well, if he’s won over a portion of our faith, then it looks like he won over a portion of Pope Pius XII’s too, so we’re in good company:

From the following website:

zerotime.com/ghosts/myths.htm
An interesting fact that is unknown to many Catholics and Christians is that the Vatican was one of the first to study EVP phenomena. Two of the earliest EVP investigators were Italian Catholic priests, Father Ernetti and Father Gemelli, who came upon the strange phenomena by chance while recording Gregorian chants in 1952. The priests were deeply troubled by the paradox of recording ghostly voices and the Catholic teachings regarding contacting the dead so the two priests visited Pope Pius XII in Rome. The Pope reassured them:
Dear Father Gemelli, you really need not worry about this. The existence of this voice is strictly a scientific fact and has nothing to do with spiritualism. The recorder is totally objective. It receives and records only sound waves from wherever they come. This experiment may perhaps become the cornerstone for a building for scientific studies which will strengthen people’s faith in a hereafter (Italian Journal Astra, June 1990 quoted Kubis and Macy, 1995:102).
The Vatican then gave permission for priests to conduct research into the recorded voices. Father Leo Schmid, a Swiss theologist, collected more than ten thousand EVP recordings, which were published in his book, “When the Dead Speak” in 1976, shortly after his death. Another Vatican-approved researcher was Father Andreas Resch who conducted his own EVP experiments and began courses in parapsychology at the Vatican’s school for priests in Rome.
 
I don’t know about all that. I’m not sold on the idea that all paranormal activity is demonic; that theory seems a bit over the top, to be honest. Screwing around like a practical jokester doesn’t seem to fit either the character or the modus operandi of a demon. How does it further Satan’s agenda for his minions to invade homes across America to rattle pots and pans and to glide down staircases dressed up as Victorian women in white?
I would imagine that anything that induces fear is a boon to a demon. For one thing, anything that is not of faith is sin, so in causing us to have unhealthy fear they’ve automatically achieved something right there; they’ve caused a Christian to sin. Since faith is our salvation I could easily see excess fear being used as a corrosive to faith; obviously because of different personalities that wouldn’t work with everyone, but it would likely work with someone, if not many. I have to agree that a LOT of paranormal activity is probably demonic, but not all of it. If you’ve ever read the diary of divine mercy, St. Faustina encounters both Satan disguised as a human spirit and the real spirit of one of her former sisters who asked for prayer as she was in purgatory.

That being said, I didn’t start believing in ghost until I became a Christian. Saul of the Bible has a seer call up the spirit of the prophet Samuel, the Scriptures make no indication that he actually called up a demon- which would be more likely to happen in most cases I think- but rather Samuel’s real human spirit. This is my basis for believing in ghosts, though to my knowledge there aren’t really any official church teachings on the subject by any denomination.
 
Dear GEddie
The problem with this theory is that ghosts are seldom, if ever, “comforting” (more often frightening), nor communicate any useful “warning.” If they are from Heaven, God would not send them in vain.
I am thinking about the people who have claimed to be visited by departed loved ones or who have seen saints. It is a very different phenomenon than the “typical” gray lady, but it is still an example of a dead person appearing to the living.
Possible, some sort of a “time-bodyprint” corresponding to a footprint. This would be amenable to studies in human physics.
Personally I believe this is the best explanation for the gray lady phenomenon.
the Church does not allow for the presence of such neutral spirits. All spirits, (including those in our bodies) come from God, and obey or fight HIM. So if it purports to be a human being, and is not, then it is a deception, and would be on the “evil side” of being.
The Church doesn’t allow for neutral angels, they are either entirely good or entirely evil, and I realise the same basically apply to departed human beings. But I am thinking about the possibility of a spiritual being that is not moral, free or immortal, more akin to a spiritual animal. Such a being could be a trickster in the same way that a dog or a monkey can be a trickster, potentially dangerous but not evil. Thus being a possible explanation of some “ghost” stories, more precisely the poltergeist variant. Now to my knowledge the Church hasn’t ruled this possibility out, as I have yet to find any official statements on the matter (and I have looked).

God bless
TL
 
Legend has it that my school (which is a Catholic school) is one of the most haunted places in the city (some actually say second most haunted). We have many school legends of different ghosts and poltergeists running around at night. In fact, I have found reference to one of these legends on a website on local hauntings.

I have two odd (I consider them paranormal) occurrences:

One night, a couple of nights before Halloween, my school was having an event. A couple of friends and I have heard of a legend that one of the classrooms has a poltergeist in it. So we went to check it out. We started at one end of the hallway to work our way to the other end, where that classroom was. Every classroom was dark, but when we got to that classroom, the TV was on and it was static-y. It scared us. That one could be explained away I guess, but it was scary.

This one is still unexplained to this day. We were at an overnight retreat and us guys usually stayed up extremely late just talking. Two of them were talking about them using a Ouija board and an experience they had with one (everyone in the room told them that it was stupid to use it because they could open themselves up to evil spirits). Then one kid challenged that spirit that those two guys talked to with the board. We all wanted to hurt him! So we were scared and kept on talking of ghosts and stuff. Then all of a sudden as the talking died down the audio for the TV went on full blast to a random Spanish channel. No one was near the remote or the receiver to turn on the audio. That was a few months ago. We still can’t explain that one.

So I’d be curious to know the answer to this. As one of our teachers told us (he’s considered the school’s ghost legend expert) that since our school is on blessed grounds if there are ghosts and spirits they can’t harm us.

I find this interesting. Just thought I’d share.
 
Wow, that wasn’t too rash an assertion. Well, if he’s won over a portion of our faith, then it looks like he won over a portion of Pope Pius XII’s too, so we’re in good company:

From the following website:

zerotime.com/ghosts/myths.htm
I’m sorry if you feel it is ‘rash’. But I have to tell you:

1.) The website you directed us to is not the Vatican website. If you find a link to a Vatican or official church teaching website where the Church actually says that it’s okay to think ghosts are dead people in some sort of limbo that’s either not Heaven or not Hell, nor Purgatory, then please, by all means, let me know. However, the link you gave us was not even Catholic. They could have said anything and there will always be people who believe them. Now I’m not saying they are not sincere or are trying to fool anyone. It looks to me like they believe what they are trying to explain to people. But that does not mean that because they are sincere about it then they must be true. I once went to a paranormal website and found definitions of spiritual/physical beings, one of which was the gremlin. There were some that had exotic sounding names and I think faeries were in there as well. They were attempting to explain the differences of the beings and attempting to tell us they were not simply characters in stories, but that they were real. This is all nonsense. There may be something going on but it is not gremlins or faeries. There’s nothing that’s below the devil or his minions, even if it means pretending to be good for the duration of someone’s life by impersonating a dead person, a Saint in Heaven or even a good Angel, or even Jesus Himself. I’ve heard about it and I was also somewhat indirectly involved with one of these experiences at one point.
  1. Pope Pius was not impeccable and therefore everything that came out of his mouth was not dogma. Popes sin too, so even if he did actually say that I highly doubt it’s doctrine. And finally,
  2. Even some clergy will believe in ghosts as some other spirit than those from Purgatory or Heaven/Hell. That does not mean we all have to drop our views and follow them. There are plenty more priests who do not believe that.
All that I have said does not mean in any way shape or form that you have to believe it. I’m just giving you my own reasons why I simply don’t believe ghosts are dead people… I am open to them being from Purgatory, but even then, I’m a bit skeptical. But honestly I can’t be sure and neither can anyone else, so I’m afraid whatever you choose to believe will be opinion as well; no matter how much paranormal ‘proof’ you might run into.
 
  1. Pope Pius was not impeccable and therefore everything that came out of his mouth was not dogma. Popes sin too, so even if he did actually say that I highly doubt it’s doctrine. And finally,
    .
While I understand your point, your use of “impeccable” is an error, as is your reference to the pope sinning. The word is “infallible.” Popes are protected from error or fallacy in Church teaching because they are the pope, not because they are sinless or “impeccable”.

Even if a Pope were an egregious sinner, and AIUI there have been some, they would be protected from error in Church teaching because of the holiness of their office.

ICXC NIKA
 
While I understand your point, your use of “impeccable” is an error, as is your reference to the pope sinning. The word is “infallible.” Popes are protected from error or fallacy in Church teaching because they are the pope, not because they are sinless or “impeccable”.

Even if a Pope were an egregious sinner, and AIUI there have been some, they would be protected from error in Church teaching because of the holiness of their office.

ICXC NIKA
I agree with everything you just said, and my post does not contradict it. So I guess I am confused as to why you thought I meant infallible when I did not.

I may have come across differently, but my use of it ‘impeccable’ was correct. I stated “the Pope was not impeccable”. Should I have said that the Pope* was* impeccable? Popes are infallible *not *impeccable. I didn’t want to have to get into the difference between infallible and impeccable, but I guess I have to. Impeccable means comepletely flawless, whereas infallible means not able to err in the areas of morals or faith.

Again I reiterate - I used the word impeccable correctly.

As far as popes sinning, I said “Popes sin too”. So are you saying they do not sin? The fact that they do sin means they are not impeccable. Am I wrong?
 
Im opened to the possibility of very few exceptions (like less than 1% of the times) where these thigns could not be demonic. But dude srsly I rly think these beings are all demonic. I have done my own reseach many many times and i came with the same conclusion. But hey u dont have to believe me, believe an Ex-satanist/Spirit worshiper that exposes this information.

youtube.com/watch?v=BgUJyroBcP4

Skip to 1:10-1:20. Hes not the only guy that has came up with this conclusion. I suggest u to watch all the video and parts if u are rly interested.
 
For one thing, anything that is not of faith is sin, so in causing us to have unhealthy fear they’ve automatically achieved something right there; they’ve caused a Christian to sin.
Anything not of faith is sin? What does that mean? Is dinner a sin? An oil change?
I’m sorry if you feel it is ‘rash’. But I have to tell you:
1.) The website you directed us to is not the Vatican website.
I didn’t claim that it was the Vatican website; what is your point?
If you find a link to a Vatican or official church teaching website where the Church actually says that it’s okay to think ghosts are dead people in some sort of limbo that’s either not Heaven or not Hell, nor Purgatory, then please, by all means, let me know.
I have not and am not suggesting any such thing. I am merely asking if anyone can enlighten me as to what the Church’s official teaching on the subject of ghosts is. Believe it or not, it isn’t anywhere to be found on the insuperable and all-informative Vatican website.

You have given us your official teaching: that all ghosts and all paranormal activity originate in Hell. I’ve read your personal doctrine on the matter. I get it. Thank you for sharing. I do not agree with you, however. And it seems that Church leaders: priests, even popes, are at liberty to disagree with you, as well.
 
Anything not of faith is sin? What does that mean? Is dinner a sin? An oil change?

I didn’t claim that it was the Vatican website; what is your point?

I have not and am not suggesting any such thing. I am merely asking if anyone can enlighten me as to what the Church’s official teaching on the subject of ghosts is. Believe it or not, it isn’t anywhere to be found on the insuperable and all-informative Vatican website.

You have given us your official teaching: that all ghosts and all paranormal activity originate in Hell. I’ve read your personal doctrine on the matter. I get it. Thank you for sharing. I do not agree with you, however. And it seems that Church leaders: priests, even popes, are at liberty to disagree with you, as well.
I already gave you my point. It’s all opinion.

The Church does not have a stance on the subject other than the three things I already mentioned. There are only three places one can go after death, and none of them are back here on earth. The only way I can see someone coming back is if they are from Pergatory. Since you already know why I am skeptical about it I won’t reiterate. But the Church has no doctrine on ghosts, so therefore it’s going to be opinion. However, the Church will** never** say that they are lost souls still here on earth waiting for eternal peace.

The best you can do is ask an apologist on CAF and see if they answer. You can also search for an answer here on the boards to see if an apologist already answered that question.

Here, let me search for you… 🤓<hums the ‘Jeopardy’ tune>

Some links I found while searching the apologist section on ghosts, evidently it’s a hot topic and they keep referring people to these threads:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=201785

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=68370

even this may be helpful:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=466651

Other than that, unless you have something specific to ask on the Ask an Apologist section, you’re only going to get opinions on the rest of the forums.
 
Anything not of faith is sin? What does that mean? Is dinner a sin? An oil change?
If done with a hesitant conscience, yes.
Romans 14:23:
But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.
But back on topic… I know the bible teaches that demons are subject to believers in the name of the Lord, but what about ghosts? Are they counted as people, which are our equals or spirits which we were given dominion over in Jesus’ name? I mean, they were at one time living people. When does ‘personage’ stop?
 
If done with a hesitant conscience, yes.

But back on topic… I know the bible teaches that demons are subject to believers in the name of the Lord, but what about ghosts? Are they counted as people, which are our equals or spirits which we were given dominion over in Jesus’ name? I mean, they were at one time living people. When does ‘personage’ stop?
If they are in fact the dead human being they purport to be, and recognized as such, they would still be “persons.” They would simply have become body-challenged:)🙂
As such, we could not “exorcize” them, but be required to pray for them or somehow comfort them.

If however, they are some kind of inanimate impression of the dead person; then they are no more human, or worthy of consideration, than a footprint.

This issue causes me to consider that such apparitions are probably not human. If ghosts are human beings who have just become breathing–challenged, then GOD would have taught us, through our LORD or later through HIS church, how we should deal with becoming a ghost or ministering to ghosts. Since HE has not, it would seem that this is not something that HE has designed into human experience.

ICXC NIKA
 
There is nothing in the Bible or Church Tradition that allows souls to take leave from Heaven, Hell or Purgatory to haunt their old stamping grounds for whatever reason. There is no Scripture that speaks of souls being allowed to hang around on earth for a while while delaying their entry into Heaven, Hell or Purgatory. Souls of the dead go to Heaven, Hell or Purgatory, they do not remain on earth with the living.

From the Scriptures we know that the fallen angels who rebelled against God were cast down to earth and so remain here or in Hell. The Gospels have a lot about demon activity, some are in people and one lot even begged to be allowed to possess a group of pigs. I sort of get the impression that demons can range from the powerful and intelligent to even being pretty dumb. There is, strangely, nothing about demons or ghosts haunting houses.

I conclude that ghostly phenomena are always by caused by demons but within limits imposed on them by God during this time before The End where demons are all cast into Hell.

There is a reason why demons impersonate the dead. It weakens belief in Heaven, Hell and Purgatory or blurs the boundaries. Quite bad people seem to come back to walk around castles and stately houses, instead of being in Hell or Purgatory. A good or tragic person seems to walk about crying and howling instead of being in Purgatory or Heaven. Dying and being allowed to walk about the earth could be a much better afterlife option than walking about in Hell or Purgatory. You see?

It should be added that Purgatory is a place of punishment and there is nothing in Church Tradition or the Bible teaching that suggests that people are allowed out to plead their case by haunting to get humans to intercede for them.

A lot of ‘ghostly phenomena’ is caused by the human mind or the imagination - lots of it, especially that for commercial use (spiritualists for example), is just fakery and duplicity.
 
I understand the line of thinking that souls would have to leave heaven, hell, or purgatory in order to interact on earth. I believe that thinking does not account for the Church’s teaching that these are not places as we think about physical locations. They are states or conditions of existence.

There are not very many accounts of ghosts in the bible. The most famous is when Saul asks the medium to contact Samuel. Samuel appears and is angry! It is not clear whether the spirit of Samuel appeared or a demon impersonated Samuel. We can be sure that God does not want us to contact spirits.

The bible teaches that Satan and his demons will inhabit the earth and try to deceive man. We know that demonic sources are responsible for at least some of the manifestations that people witness. But, John tells us to test all spirits to see if they are from God. Doesn’t this imply that there are other spirits who are not demonic? While there are many accounts of demons, I think that they are all of the nature of possession rather than banging noises, footsteps, or shadows which people report during hauntings. The bible is silent on this type of manifestation.

My current thinking is that we are surrounded by spirits. In the spiritual kingdom, dimensional aspects such as physical location are not as we think. Just as God has told us not to communicate with spirits, there are also rules for the spirits. They are not supposed to interact with us. However, given that they have free will, they can manifest on earth and probably have to pay the consequences of their actions just we do. 🤷
 
The bible teaches that Satan and his demons will inhabit the earth and try to deceive man. We know that demonic sources are responsible for at least some of the manifestations that people witness. But, John tells us to test all spirits to see if they are from God. Doesn’t this imply that there are other spirits who are not demonic?
Absolutely not. Think about it: if something is against God (spiritual, that is) what would it be? Where would you be if you were a spirit against God?
Luke 11:23
Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.
Originally Posted by MtnDwellar forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
My current thinking is that we are surrounded by spirits. In the spiritual kingdom, dimensional aspects such as physical location are not as we think.
I agree. However, I have heard in dribs and drabs from many different sources - theologians, scholars and clergy, etc. - that Angels (both good and bad) can manipulate matter - meaning objects other than human beings. If they could only inhabit a person’s body, what good would manipulating matter be? Yes, the demons have rules they must follow, and from what I understand they occasionally break those rules. Good Angels, as you could imagine, cannot break rules. However, that does get me thinking that perhaps an Angel from Heaven has manifested itself occasionally for good and was misunderstood as a ghostly ‘lost soul’. That could be another option, I suppose. But I would think they would only be a small percentage, not the large percentage of ‘sightings’ that are reported and exploited by today’s media and entertainment sector.

I do have a theory about ghosts in the OT, as they obviously did exist then and were subject to different ‘rules’ than after Christ’s death and resurrection, but I get the feeling it’s not very important, so I’ll stop right here.
 
I certainly believe that demons are active and up to no good and that they cause their own malicious mischief here and there. ** But I also think that there are other things going on that are of a paranormal nature that are not diabolical in nature or in origin.** Ghosts, after all, were reported in ancient times and in ancient cultures by people who didn’t have a belief in Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory, so, if every haunting is merely a demonic plot to cause Catholics to doubt the solidity of Christian doctrine on the afterlife, what on earth were the demons playing at back then?
I never, ever believed in the paranormal & thought that stories of ghosts were just told by silly people whose imaginations had just “run away” with them. UNTIL, my Father died & left his wife of 60+ years here on her own.

My Mother was a very common sense type person, not one AT ALL to put much store in other people’s “silly ghost stories”. However, about a month or two after my Father died, she “saw” him tending his garden. She simply told me, that he had “visited” her & said, with some aggravation, that he was still wearing that beat-up old gardening hat of his. (She’d tried to buy him new ones when he was alive, but no luck there. They’d simply hang in his closet.) She never mentioned that day again. I figured that, as some scientists say, the image of a loved one is so imprinted upon our brains, that we will see the image sometimes after they are gone.

Anyway, this episode was not mentioned again for 9 years & my Mother went on about her life as best she could. About a month before her death at 86 years of age, she said to me, "Your Father has been coming to sit with me in the evenings. He doesn’t say anything or do anything, but just sits with me as I watch T.V. She said this so "matter-of-factly…just as if she were telling me that Agnes next door brought by some pictures of her newest Grandchild.

Again, this was NOT like my Mother, whose mind was usually on such substantial things…One Granddaughter had broken up with her boyfriend, my son had just bought a new car & “If Jacob (a great grandson) is coming to see me, I’ll need to know what kind of cookies are his favorite”.

Her death was a peaceful one, & as I said, happened about a month after these “visits” started occuring. I’d like to believe that Dad just came to sit with her to ease her departure from this life & her entrance into another. At least, that’s what I hope it was.
 
I don’t know about all that. I’m not sold on the idea that all paranormal activity is demonic; that theory seems a bit over the top, to be honest. Screwing around like a practical jokester doesn’t seem to fit either the character or the modus operandi of a demon. How does it further Satan’s agenda for his minions to invade homes across America to rattle pots and pans and to glide down staircases dressed up as Victorian women in white?

I have heard some suggestions from paranormal researchers that a significant percentage of reported hauntings seem to be of a “residual” nature; that is to say they aren’t intelligent in any way (they make no attempt to interact with the living), but recur periodically as if some sort of natural recorder were playing them, over and over again. Some have suggested that this sort of haunt may be the result of a time warp of sorts that science has yet to offer an explanation for.

I certainly believe that demons are active and up to no good and that they cause their own malicious mischief here and there. But I also think that there are other things going on that are of a paranormal nature that are not diabolical in nature or in origin. Ghosts, after all, were reported in ancient times and in ancient cultures by people who didn’t have a belief in Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory, so, if every haunting is merely a demonic plot to cause Catholics to doubt the solidity of Christian doctrine on the afterlife, what on earth were the demons playing at back then?
It is said among Catholics that all of nature is a direct manifestation of God’s thought. So, if we want to know how God thinks we can study nature.

By looking around us we can see that God has a great imagination and an eye for detail. We have divided nature into several sciences. Within those sciences there are specialties and sub-specialties within them. God’s earth is so complex and the human intellect is limited such that one person can only understand a very small part. Can’t we suppose that the kingdom of heaven, purgatory and hell are at least as complex and also filled with variety? The bible tells us that the world was created in six days. From that, I conclude that it was not a colossal effort for the Creator. I think that if He spent more time, a month, a year, or several thousand years, He would come up with something so grand that we cannot even imagine it. I suspect that dividing the spiritual world into angels and demons is a gross over simplification.
 
Please pardon me if I have begun this discussion in the wrong forum, but I couldn’t seem to find one that actually fits.

My question concerns the phenomenon of ghosts. Specifically, does the Church offer any definitive teaching on the subject one way or the other with respect to whether they exist or not, and, if so, what they represent?
… my dear friend …

… a similiar topic : leprechauns — many reliable irish swear they’ve seen them , i think god just stirred up the irish to work harder for the church — it worked didn’t it !!!

… good on the irish , i have many descendants there i’m sure as i have traced my family back in one direction to a very noble french family connected with king louis ix i’m sure - it was in 1255 ad , and some went to ireland of these …

… god bless you 👍🙂 …

… john …
 
Some think they are spirits of those who died in the past (family, friends etc) or souls of those that are in the purgatory. I however think these things are all demonic. They are demons/fallen angels. They impersonate the dead to fool us. They also make us believe they are aliens (UFOs) when they are not. They usually appear in places where withcraft activities have happened in or any other occult activity.
Interesting theory…
 
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