Gifts of the Holy Spirit!

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littleone

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Tell me please, 1 Corinth12 and 13; and Galat 5:22, speak of the Gifts(all) so why is it that some gifts e.g. speaking in toungs. healing the sick (is Jesus name), prophcy, deliverance (in Jesus name), word of knowledge, miricals (in Jesus name) seem to be left out of conversation or placement in the church or seemingly not very worthy of use? Not all people have the gift of Love it seems. otherwise there would be no reason for the other gifts to be mentioned if we did.
I remember a reading that says “if I am a thumb and not a hand(or something) does not say that I am not worthy to be part of the body” ALL parts are part of the body (the body being the church) Jesus said.
Please enlighten me. :confused:
 
littleone said:
Tell me please, 1 Corinth12 and 13; and Galat 5:22, speak of the Gifts(all) so why is it that some gifts e.g. speaking in toungs. healing the sick (is Jesus name), prophcy, deliverance (in Jesus name), word of knowledge, miricals (in Jesus name) seem to be left out of conversation or placement in the church or seemingly not very worthy of use? Not all people have the gift of Love it seems. otherwise there would be no reason for the other gifts to be mentioned if we did.
I remember a reading that says “if I am a thumb and not a hand(or something) does not say that I am not worthy to be part of the body” ALL parts are part of the body (the body being the church) Jesus said.
Please enlighten me. :confused:
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I am not sure what you are asking. Your first question seems to be, “Why does the Church not emphasize the charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit?”

Then you state that if we all were perfected in Love, the gifts would not be necessary.

Then you attribute to Jesus a quotation from Paul: the observation that not everyone receives every gift.

In answer to your first question, the Church does not focus on the charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit because (as Paul notes) they are not considered normative. They are extraordinary gifts. Some believe that the widespread occurrence of these gifts nearly vanished in the post-Apostolic age. The Church tends to focus on those gifts of the Spirit (Isa. 11) which ARE normtive and which are available to every Christian: Wisdom, understanding, knowledge, counsel, piety, fortitude, and fear of the Lord.

It is by no means clear that perfect Love and charismatic gifts are in connected, as Paul himself asserts when he cautions the Corinthians about speaking in tongues.

Your third point addresses the matter of spiritual envy. If the charismatic gifts provoke either pride or envy, then they are better set aside. Although Paul recognizes that they are gifts, he notes that they are not evangelical gifts but rather gifts for the household. "If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels and have not Love, I am a clanging gong . . . "
 
“*Why does
the Church not emphasize the charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit?”
You mentioned I think it is Isiaha. could you elaborate on that please I am at work and have not got my bible here. 😦 :eek:

*Then you state that if we all were perfected in Love, the gifts would not be
necessary.
Yes, what I was saying is that if they are there to be used there must be a reason, and why are they not so widely used for the teaching healing edification of the church more readily? OR am I blind?

I]Then you attribute to Jesus a quotation from Paul: the observation that not
everyone receives every gift.
I’m not too sure if anyone recieves all gifts at all, but at least some gifts (I thought) go to each to bring the fulfillment of the spirit in the church how the spirit wishes.
However thank you for your response it is very good information.

I for one use some of the gifts but donot huha any person who does or doesn’t, I don’t think that is the point. To me the point is in the verse “and they will know we are christians by our love”. But I am very interested in other peoples thoughts/oppinions,
Thank you God bless 🙂
 
littleone said:
"Why does
the Church not emphasize the charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit?"
*You mentioned I think it is Isiaha. could you elaborate on that please I am at work and have not got my bible here. 😦 :eek: *
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I did “elaborate.” The gifts of the spirit listed in Isaiah are available – and necessary – to all Christians in order to live in faith and grace: Wisdom, Understanding, Knowledge, Counsel, Piety, Fortitude, Fear of the Lord.
Then you state that if we all were perfected in Love, the gifts would not be necessary.
Yes, what I was saying is that if they are there to be used there must be a reason, and why are they not so widely used for the teaching healing edification of the church more readily? OR am I blind?
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Paul clearly observes that these gifts are not for everyone, and that they can cause problems in the Church. Charismatic Catholics do cultivate these gifts and share the fruit with the rest of the Church. Paul’s point is that the charismatic gifts are not the primary business of the faithful but that Love is. He is clear that the gifts are not any kind of guarantee of perfection in Love nor a means to it.
Then you attribute to Jesus a quotation from Paul: the observation that not
*everyone receives every gift. *
]
I’m not too sure if anyone recieves all gifts at all, but at least some gifts (I thought) go to each to bring the fulfillment of the spirit in the church how the spirit wishes.
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We do, indeed all receive spiritual gifts – such as preaching and teaching – but we certainly do not all receive the more theatrical charismatic gifts.
However thank you for your response it is very good information.
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:tiphat:

Have a look at these paragraphs in The Catechism of the Catholic Church*: *1830, 1831, 1845.
 
Here is the Catechism’s teaching about charisms and gifts of the Holy Spirit which may help you to understand a little better.

My own belief is that a person needs to have a good deal of prudence in order to use the extraordinary gifts with wisdom as the Lord directs. How few there may be that know how to listen with docility to the Lord’s promptings, and how few there are who have the faith necessary to exercise them. Would you, for instance, have the faith to move the mountain of sickness from another, and speak the word of healing?

I’m thinking at this moment about Sr. Briege McKenna who was given this gift. Note well that the Lord asked her for three hours of daily prayer. Can we drink the same cup? 😛

OTOH, there are many gifts such as administration, teaching, service, etc., that due to seeming “ordinary” are not readily attributed to the Holy Spirit’s guidance and prompting … yet He is truly the one who inspires and empowers!
 
Have a look at these paragraphs in The Catechism of the Catholic Church: 1830, 1831, 1845.
Benedicite

mercygate
Joysong
!
My own belief is that a person needs to have a good deal of prudence in order to use the extraordinary gifts with wisdom as the Lord directs. How few there may be that know how to listen with docility to the Lord’s promptings, and how few there are who have the faith necessary to exercise them.
*Would you, for instance, have the faith to move the mountain of sickness from another, and speak the word of healing? *

For a long number of years I have used the gifts you mention. This night I was relating some of them to a youth here at the hostle who is not a christian. She said that she yould be interested in reading the Bible because of this night.

A time back, After having been fishing with friends who had said we should go back because it was too rough I instantaniously put my arms out to command in Jesus name that the sea be calmed and it did. And the fish we caught were numerous. When I agreed that we should go in the sea became rough.
My friends and I went to the squash club after that and my friend told everyone to come and hear of the miracles. Some thirty came to hear my friend, I didn’t have to say a word while they were drinking and swearing they listened contently. I thought of how it must have been for Jesus.

Also when taking 7 or 8 youth out to play golf while it was poring rain. My father was returning and told me the rain would not cease maybe I should go home. I said it was all right, then carried on. I commanded the rain in the name of Jesus and it stopped. Then two hours latter it started as soon as we got into the van. One youth exclamed “Mr Stewart I didn’t know Jesus was that strong”. There are many other examples I could give you.
I know too well the cup and also the reading, “to he who much is given much is expected”. Fear of the Lord comes with that for me. It is very humbling to know the love that Jesus has for us.

I died at 11 years of age and was given my life back, then contracted meningitus, once again Dr’s gave me up for dead. Later I had an operation that I was told would kill or cure me. My faith was built from that.
Just ordanary people God loves us all.
I was a counsellor and have not been able to keep a job because I am told not to heal people in one sitting (not always) because there is no money for the organisation. I use Forgiveness and government doesnt want to know about it, even with the evidence. I cannot help what I have been given, and yet it is the youth and children who listen with contentment, and I am 58.

I write and this that you are reading is what comes out and yet when I counsell people, they have no problem in understanding. I know the spirit leads where He wishes.
I have two degree and yet neither is needed by Jesus for ministry, that is unless He wishes. All he askes is Obedience above all ability I may think I have. He will use ability if He so wishes not before.
Thank you for your time. :bible1:
 
Now I’m really confused as to why you posted your original question, when you seem to be acquainted already with the answer???
 
The reason why, is because I follow the little way of Spiritual childhood which for me is easy because that is how I am.
I have no ability to understand what you pick up and understand. I hear from you and learn from you what I am doing in how the church says. I am very simple and think I understand, and when I think I have some understanding if i speak it out people look sideways at me. That confuses me.

I know Jesus gave me a special love which I donot pretend to understand. I just allow the spirit to use me because as I said. after the early trauma of the accident, nothing else mattered but Jesus and His will being done.
I am very thankful for your information. I find it hard to read and wish I understood the wayyou do, but that is not to be so I will just love Jesus the way I am.
God blessyou.
 
Here is a good article by Ralph Martin: **Charismatic & Contempletive: What Would John of the Cross Say

**It is on Carmelite and Charismatic spirituality, and confronts some of the conflict within the Church in regards to the Charismatic Gifts.

It is very important to understand that everything is received at Baptism & Chrismation/Cofirmation. Often by particpating in a Life in the Spirit Seminar, the gifts are stirred into flame by study/understanding with the laying on of hands by brothers and sisters who have gone through the same growth. The Holy Spirit is the worker and the giver of the gifts, not the people. It is the proverbial glass of milk with chocolate syrup lying in the bottom, it must be stirred up to become chocolate milk. Or as I have heard also, like roasting a marshmallow over an open fire, it suddenly burst into flame.

The article follows on this link
renewalministries.net/pdfs/Char_Cont…pdf
 
Thank you that suits me being of the Carmilite way or little way so I should understand it enough, I hope.
 
Pani_Rose said:
Here is a good article by Ralph Martin: **Charismatic & Contempletive: What Would John of the Cross Say

The article follows on this link
renewalministries.net/pdfs/Char_Cont…pdf**

Thanks so much for the link. Ralph Martin’s article is very well written and informative.

Here are the key points I got out of it:
St. John the Cross does not condemn the exercise of the charismatic gifts at all.
There is no conflict between contemplative and charismatic.

What St. John intends to do is to ensure the authentic exercise of those gifts.
Those who are given the charismatic gifts should be careful of the temptation of vanity,
attachments, own ideas and desires, lest the unsuccessful exercise of a gift, apart from God’s will, leads to distrust.

Pope John Paul II called the Church to open to the charismatic gifts.
Contemplation, an infused gift, brings union with God.
Charismatic gifts also have to be united with God in order to be authentically exercised and carried out.

All gifts are granted by God.
Click to expand...
 
littleone said:
The reason why, is because I follow the little way of Spiritual childhood which for me is easy because that is how I am.
I have no ability to understand what you pick up and understand. I hear from you and learn from you what I am doing in how the church says. I am very simple and think I understand, and when I think I have some understanding if i speak it out people look sideways at me. That confuses me.

I know Jesus gave me a special love which I donot pretend to understand. I just allow the spirit to use me because as I said. after the early trauma of the accident, nothing else mattered but Jesus and His will being done.
I am very thankful for your information. I find it hard to read and wish I understood the wayyou do, but that is not to be so I will just love Jesus the way I am.
God blessyou.
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you’re so sweet 🙂
 
Hello
Being a Catholic Charismatic for many years, I was really hoping to see this thread go somewhere.
I will be away tomorrow and most of Wednesday but will check back to see if this bud has bloomed.👍
 
Something I do understand. Jesus stated that His presents was NOT to change the Old Testament but to FULFILL it.
To me the fulfilling of the Old Testament means that when He said “you say that if we commit murder theft or covert a man’s wife, we have done just that, But I say to you, if you *think that *way you have done it”.

To me what Jesus meant is that from the time He came on to earth, all actions, thought, words became spirit led. Jesus is the fulfillment of the Old Testament, the culmination of the WORD in all it is.
I believe that God the Father created the Word in the Old Testament; Fulfilled the Word in the New Testament, and will Accomplish all it is in the fulfillment of the Book of Revelations. In that Jesus work on earth will have been accomplished in the fullfilment of THE WORD.

Jesus I believe is the culmination of all three books in the form of how we, as humans see, feel, think, and act in accordance with God’s will being done. Jesus showed us the ability we are to have in thinking spirit and using the ability s that come with the spirit, Jesus used them and told us to do likewise BUT in Love.
Why did He tell the deciples ( which is what we are) to have faith even the size of a mustard seed, and if so, to be able to move the obsticals in the way of our selves and our brother. We sing, Jesus gave us His example are we not to use it, in accordance to which gift we have. Does Jesus not say if we use the gifts for God’s glory more will be given us in accfordance to God’s will being done.

I believe that the reason why Jesus came onto this earth is to show mankind that there is a passage to the Father and it is Jesus. As Jesus allowed the Father to lead Him feed Him do what He needed to be done. The Father wants His children to do likewise.
Not to think that they can relate to the Father with all their human knowledge. No I believe that Jesus was talking to every person when He said suffer the little children to come unto Me.
I believe that He was saying that it is those who are and accept their littleness their inability to do God’s will in their manly, womanly attitudes.
I believe that Jesus gave us the recipe and it is in staying little. Remember Jesus saying that if the Father feed the birds of the sky how much more would He feed His children who are made to His likeness.

This I do know and believe. He holds all secretes all knowledge can we put our worldly knowledge aside and allow the spirit to govern.
I believe that this is the crux of what Jesus was teaching. We have been given the formula and it is in littleness. Every person from Prophet to Apostle to teacher to slave for God related in littleness. Reliance upon God’s providence.
How much do we denigh our Father when we donot allow our Father in heaven the right to provide His children?
Acceptance that our Father is in Heaven we are to be in the world but NOT of the world.
This I believe and I find it in every word of the bible and the writings of the saints.
This keeps us in humility, knowing that without Our Father in Heaven we have nothing.

God bless.
 
I am not saying I am right, all I am saying is that I amo apen to your guidence please. It’s a long road and there are many deviations. You are my brothers, sisters i love you all God bless you .
Please I will listen, don’t be offended by my writing.
🙂
 
I have found, and I think Roberta will attest to this, that ‘mature’ Charismatics are spending more and more time in Eucharistic Adoration. It is a return to the Upper Room so to speak. This does not mean that the Charisms are put aside, but that the words of Christ - ‘do not be concerned about what you are to say, I will give you the words to speak’ - confident in the Holy Spirit and his doings, there is no need to push or shove, only to LOVE. He brings the people, he shows the way, and he directs our steps.

Since we are human we fail miserably, but realizing it is his work, we have no fear and can trust that the task set before us will be comepleted. The important thing is prayer and Scripture reading - the Triune God will do the rest. 😃
 
InLight247 said:
Thanks so much for the link. Ralph Martin’s article is very well written and informative.

Here are the key points I got out of it:
St. John the Cross does not condemn the exercise of the charismatic gifts at all.
There is no conflict between contemplative and charismatic.

What St. John intends to do is to ensure the authentic exercise of those gifts.
Those who are given the charismatic gifts should be careful of the temptation of vanity,
attachments, own ideas and desires, lest the unsuccessful exercise of a gift, apart from God’s will, leads to distrust.

Pope John Paul II called the Church to open to the charismatic gifts.
Contemplation, an infused gift, brings union with God.
Charismatic gifts also have to be united with God in order to be authentically exercised and carried out.

All gifts are granted by God.
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Wonderful!

Yes, and JPII was very clear on his calling the Church to open up more to the Holy Spirit. I will search for it, but in his last address to the International Charismatic & Renewal Ministries(I think that is when it was), he called everyone(the Church) to open in a greater way to the workings and gifts of the Holy Spirit.
 
I agree with you and think that one of the most contemplative saints ( children of God would be St Therese The little Flower.
She waited on God in everything she did even to the point of asking for assistance to do better when she thought that she didn’t have the strength in herself.
Even though she didn’t use the gifts of the Holy spirit as some may say, or to a greater degree.

As you say they are all gifts from God and I believe …who are we to say no to them surely God gave them so that His blessing could be seen in a world of little belief.

*St. John the Cross does not condemn the exercise of the charismatic gifts at all.
There is no conflict between contemplative and charismatic.

What St. John intends to do is to ensure the authentic exercise of those gifts.
Those who are given the charismatic gifts should be careful of the temptation of vanity,
attachments, own ideas and desires, lest the unsuccessful exercise of a gift, apart from God’s will, leads to distrust.

Pope John Paul II called the Church to open to the charismatic gifts.
Contemplation, an infused gift, brings union with God.
Charismatic gifts also have to be united with God in order to be authentically exercised and carried out.

All gifts are granted by God.*
 
Tiny tip:

If you want to quote other posting, just click the “quote” button on the lower right corner of that particular posting, the posting you want to quote will appear in the working space for you. Then you only need to continue typing your own (name removed by moderator)ut after the quote.

You can also edit the quote by deleting the part you don’t want. Simply highlight the lines you want to delete, then hit the “delete” key on your computer keyboard. To highlight the verse you want to delete, point your cursor to the line, press down the left part of your mouse and drag to the place you want to stop deleting.
Hope that makes it easier.🙂
 
Pani_Rose said:
Here is a good article by Ralph Martin: **Charismatic & Contempletive: What Would John of the Cross Say

**It is on Carmelite and Charismatic spirituality, and confronts some of the conflict within the Church in regards to the Charismatic Gifts.
The article follows on this link
renewalministries.net/pdfs/Char_Cont…pdf
Click to expand...
This is a very interesting article, thank you 🙂 I know next to nothing about Charismatic spirituality within the Church so I really can’t comment. However, as a Secular Carmelite some of the points Ralph Martin made in this article were enlightening . . . particularily St. John’s emphasis on wisdom, prudence and docility in the exercise of gifts and the primacy of love in all aspects.

I look forward to seeing how this discussion develops and hope to learn more about Charismatic spirituality . . .

Dave.

BTW - I have definitely noticed within Carmelite community (mine at least) the “dichotomy” Ralph Martin speaks with regard to the charismatic and contemplative. I don’t know if that’s true of other communities, however.
 
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