Girl Altar Servers?

[katherine2]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

Here’s a quick one from Abbé Sinoir
“The presence of women in the sanctuary…”

Of course, that quote is not even a remote example of someone claiming altar girls will be a boon to vocations. In fact, it takes the opposite position in a rather extreme way. Once again you have been unable to provide an iota of evidence behind the false claim made in the OP.

You had to go back and read** all **the letters referenced. From there certain statements were made.

Not one of the letters makes a single statement claiming altar girls will be a boon to vocations. Not one. Again, the original post includes made up assertions. People with the facts don’t need to make things up.

The Vatican is not known for it’s in your face way of putting things. Nuance is always there.

Others would be well counseled to follow the Vatican’s practice. The nunace is there for a reason.

If you believe that this site is “making up facts” then prove that they are. Give us a reference that what they are saying is wrong.

You have fallen flat on your face trying to find any evidence that their assertion is based on fact. Now you have surrendered and expect me to do your work.

 

[CrusaderNY]

Social justice does not exist in the Catholic Church nor should it, the Church is a monarchy with Christ as our King, we and Vatican II have forgotten that, thinking the church is to be all love and fair, but life and sacrifice sometimes is not fail.

If you want democracy, then I will revise a quote from a Catholic President “Ask not what your church can do for you, but what YOU can do for your Church”. and where you can assist and fit it

fix:

Yes, but what about social justice?

 

[netmilsmom]

katherine2:

You have fallen flat on your face trying to find any evidence that their assertion is based on fact. Now you have surrendered and expect me to do your work.

It’s not my work. You are the one stating that the article is making up facts.
Prove them wrong. I already did “my work”. It is now your job to prove your point. Where have you come up with a reference?

It’s easy to skim an article and say that they made things up. Even when I make points from the article, you say wrong and have nothing to back it up.

As you stated before, " My theory is if the facts are on your side, you don’t need to make things up." Where’s your facts? Give us any reference from the vatican that having altar girls would pick up vocations.

 

[netmilsmom]

Nota Bene:

You have female readers.

You are correct!

 

[smn]

Catholic2003:

There is no Church teaching that this rule cannot be changed in the future, so that female lectors might someday be allowed.

Female lectors are impossible. Lector is a clerical office, and women cannot be clerics.

Scott

 

[JCB]

Nota Bene:

A heart-warming Q&A from EWTN follows:

girl alter servers
Question from Joan Walsh on 01-29-2005: ewtn.com/images/printer.gifDear Father Levis, I’m 15 years old and an alter server at my church. I always took it for granted that I was allowed to be a part in the Mass. However, when I learned that it was only ten years ago that girls were actually allowed to be alter servers, I wanted to know why. I found out that it used to viewed as a sort of a training for the priesthood for boys and that some dioceses don’t allow it. While I trust the discretion of the Church, I sort of feel like its only adding to liberalism in the Church (which has really taken over my parish). I do like alter serving and I’m not sure if I should quit. Your thoughts on the matter would be greatly appreciated. Thank you so much, your forum has been really helpful to me. God Bless, Joan

Answer by Fr. Robert J. Levis on 01-30-2005: Dear Joan, I think little girls are magnificent, all of them, and that God loves them all as jewels. But we have a problem in the Church. We need priests, very badly, and the Church always asked that little boys be given the great privilege of Mass serving as a kind of opportunity for them to consider becoming priests themselves. Today already, many American parishes have no boys at all serving anymore, just girls. Whatever can be done now, Joan? Fr. Bob Levis

Girl Alter servers is an example of an abuse that has become a norm. You should resign.

 

[fix]

JCB:

Girl Alter servers is an example of an abuse that has become a norm. You should resign.

I think you are correct, but some here, who may be thought of as liberal, claim that a few canonists in the early 1980s took it upon themselves to interpret Church law as allowing female servers. This personal initiative of some with a radical agenda got a foothold and the Vatican decided to interpret the law as allowing it many years later.

 

[katherine2]

smn:

Female lectors are impossible. Lector is a clerical office, and women cannot be clerics.

Scott

Actually, it is not a sacramentally clerical office, it was a canonically clerical office and women have been canonically clerics.

 

[katherine2]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

It’s not my work. You are the one stating that the article is making up facts.
Prove them wrong. I already did “my work”. It is now your job to prove your point. Where have you come up with a reference?

They claim proponents of women as altar servers have made certain assertions. I have done a full search and not found any proponents making that assertion.

case closed.

 

[Deacon_Tony560]

Wow, the debate continues. Let us retrun to our early church procedures. Mass was held in the homes of wealthy Christians. Most often it was the women who made this possible. They served at the altar (the table). They took the left over Eucharist and gave it to other women, who brought it home to their families and those who could not receive. (This is well documented in Church History) Women are not allowed in the priesthood, which goes back to the priesthood of Christ, but as our Holy Father points out, women are of great importance to the mission of our pilgrim church on earth.

Deacon Tony SFO

 

[Catholic2003]

smn:

Female lectors are impossible. Lector is a clerical office, and women cannot be clerics.

Lector is a ministry and a liturgical office, and can be exercised by the laity. The restriction of this ministry to males (canon 230 §1) is a matter of ecclesiastical law and can be changed.

 

[Catholic2003]

JCB:

Girl Alter servers is an example of an abuse that has become a norm. You should resign.

Girls who truly have a call to serve at the altar manage to persevere despite being told that they are “abuses” and should resign. Yet boys who choose not to serve at the altar (alongside icky girls) blame those girls for thwarting their call to the priesthood?

In the early church, boys and men had to overcome many obstacles to become priests. I guess nowadays they expect everything to be handed to them on a silver platter.

 

[FenianMan]

katherine2:

Actually, it is not a sacramentally clerical office, it was a canonically clerical office and women have been canonically clerics.

Could you please give a reference to a woman being a canonically recognized cleric?

 

[FenianMan]

katherine2:

You presume the teaching that the priesthood is reserved for males is so difficult to understand that even allowing girls to serve will give them false hope. That doesn’t speak very well to the self-evidence of this teaching. Those banning altar girls for this reason have a liberal premise to a conservative conclusion.

In all charity, I think that the reason that so many of us are arguing that serving confuses young women with regard to the role of the priest and the necessity of an all-male priesthood is that so many of us have seen it. A clear mentorship exists between a priest and his servers, not qualitatively different han between an intern and his superior or a carpenter and his apprentice. Surely holy sisters in cloistered convents can be expected to understand that, but not a ten year old girl (or boy), which is precisely why we should limit serving to men under ordinary circumstances.

 

[Catholic2003]

fix:

I think you are correct, but some here, who may be thought of as liberal, claim that a few canonists in the early 1980s took it upon themselves to interpret Church law as allowing female servers. This personal initiative of some with a radical agenda got a foothold and the Vatican decided to interpret the law as allowing it many years later.

It is a fact that the 1983 Code of Canon Law allowed altar girls. This is confirmed by the historical record (e.g., the canon law journals and commentaries of the time), the deliberate decision of the pontifical committee that voted to remove the male-only restriction from canon 230 §2, and most importantly the authentic interpretation from the Vatican.

Authentic interpretations cannot change canon law, only interpret it. A true change requires an apostolic constitution or an apostolic letter moto proprio, such as was used to update canon 750.

 

[fix]

Catholic2003:

It is a fact that the 1983 Code of Canon Law allowed altar girls. This is confirmed by the historical record (e.g., the canon law journals and commentaries of the time), the deliberate decision of the pontifical committee that voted to remove the male-only restriction from canon 230 §2, and most importantly the authentic interpretation from the Vatican.

Authentic interpretations cannot change canon law, only interpret it. A true change requires an apostolic constitution or an apostolic letter moto proprio, such as was used to update canon 750.

I stand by my post. Your view of history differs from many others. If the use of female servers started in a very straight forward way, then why was there a need many years later for the Vatican to clarify the issue?

 

[netmilsmom]

katherine2:

case closed.

I’ll take that as you cannot find any facts to back your point.

 

[jlw]

Catholic2003:

Girls who truly have a call to serve at the altar manage to persevere despite being told that they are “abuses” and should resign. Yet boys who choose not to serve at the altar (alongside icky girls) blame those girls for thwarting their call to the priesthood?

In the early church, boys and men had to overcome many obstacles to become priests. I guess nowadays they expect everything to be handed to them on a silver platter.

As if girls and boys are “in charge” of themselves. Children as adults!! The not-so-lovely fruits of Modernity! Yes, yes, they are autonomous human beings and have real hopes and desires that should not be squelched wholesale. BUT, if I tell my son he’s going to do x, I really don’t care how he “feels” about it–he had just bettter DO IT.

The problem with boys not wanting to be altar servers may be due to boys not being excited about flatening their growing masculine nature by wearing long white robes with girls, no less. A male-only service group (heterosexual, thank you!) has a specialness (is that a word?) to it that makes it inviting to any male, young or old.

BUT it is ALSO at the feet of parents who do apparently do not encourage or expect that their sons, as fathful Catholics do their duty, and serve the priest at Mass. Could it be that over the last few decades, the focus has shifted from the importance of the sacred altar to that of hand-holding in the pews??

It’s either those reason outlines above, or the sad case that Catholic families don’t have many children anymore, so the stable of children to aspire to serve the Church in a religious vocation down the road is…empty???

 

[netmilsmom]

Catholic2003:

Girls who truly have a call to serve at the altar manage to persevere despite being told that they are “abuses” and should resign. Yet boys who choose not to serve at the altar (alongside icky girls) blame those girls for thwarting their call to the priesthood?

In the early church, boys and men had to overcome many obstacles to become priests. I guess nowadays they expect everything to be handed to them on a silver platter.

What is wrong with making boys special? Why does everything have to be feminized?

It seems that the people here that are for Female Servers are thinking of the feelings of the girls but not the feelings of the boys. At that age, what’s wrong with a Fraternity atmosphere?

No boy will ever experience the miracle of giving birth. For goodness sake, let them have something special, all their own.

 

[CARose]

Sean.McKenzie:

I am not saying that because girls were allowed to serve, that is why i am not a priest, it is why i didn’t pursue altar serving life. I know exactly what i think, and why things happened to me! you missed the point and made a wrongful judgement upon me. Besides i DO know what cause things for myself and what doesn’t, how could possibly know more than I about myself except for God?!

Sean, please accept my apology. It was late at night, I was tired and cranky (unrelated to you or anything you said or did).

I am however sorry that there is so much anger on this thread regarding the DAMAGE that you believe altar serving girls are causing.

It is allowed, it is not illicit. I know this because we have an EXTREMELY Faithful priest in a Diocese with a Faithful Bishop. We are a very traditional parish, with Latin frequently incorporated in the Novus Ordem (sic?) Mass, but we do have girl altar servers. We also have parents of boys who do NOT encourage their sons to assist. We’re a small parish and at this point we more frequently have no altar servers than we have anyone to assist. I have encouraged my daughter to serve and for about a year she was the ONLY altar server in the parish. Others were listed on the schedule, but I knew if she missed Mass, there was no-one to call to fill in. A family with 2 sons has moved in, so I’m happy to have them helping now, but otherwise, no bells.

We have had older gentlemen assist, which also works for me. I am a reader and have been pressed into service as a Extraordinary Minister of the Holy Communion (I was told this is the new title we are to use) and I even did a Communion service when Father was out of town. It was not something I necessarily had any desire to do, but for communion to be available, it was licit and I was asked.

Our priest is a 70 yr old Irish Catholic Priest who would be appalled to think he ever acted out of accord with the Bishop and the Bishop in accord with the Holy Father.

I’m sorry for those who are offended that my daughter serves on the altar, but someone needed to step up and retain the practice of ringing the bells and she was asked, so she said yes.

I’m sorry for those who are offended when I serve as Extraordinary Minister of the Most Holy Eucharist. This is an honor well beyond me, but if Father needs my help, and he gives me the nod, I will not refuse him.

I’m especially sorry for those offended by my officiating at a Communion Service. I asked that they attempt to find someone else, but if no-one was available, they could count on me. Communion is a sacrament and it is a blessing that we have it available to distribute. If Father requests my assistance, in obedience, I offer my help gladly.

I have no desire to EVER see women priests. This has been answered and I am more than satisfied that it is according to God’s infinite wisdom that this is as it should be. But I will serve my God and I accept that my priest, who is faithful to the magisterium, will not lead me astray. If I can help in my parish, I help.

CARose

P.S. Sean, and I am sincere in my apology. My tone was not charitable. Mea culpa