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katherine2
Guest
Whatever. if you think proposing allowing women to serve at the altar is unfaithfulness, we have profound differences.
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Kielbasi
Guest
Of course its proof.
Fact: There are altar girls, and the practice is quite prevalent.
Fact: The pope knows it.
Fact: Its within the pope’s powers and prerogatives to stop it.
Fact: He hasn’t stopped it.
Conclusion: Pope John Paul II approves of altar girls.
What other conclusion could you come to, considering the facts?
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netmilsmom
Guest
simple logic
The man says the sky is green
You say the sky is blue
I say prove that it is not green
You show the websites that site the sky being blue
Site the websites that prove your claim.
It is not proving his point is negative
It is proving your point is positive.
And this is the last I say on this subject.
You can pick it apart anyway you like but you are not talking to the author.
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ThornGenX
Guest
My parish has alter servers of both genders.
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jlw
Guest
Unless the Pope says otherwise. I may not agree with girls on the altar, but yes, if the Pope leaves it to each bishop or pastor, then so be it.
Thankfully, my parish’s consesus is “If we are told theologically why we have MALE-only priests, then it only follows that there should be MALE-only altar servers.”
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jlw
Guest
In re-reading your post…
YES, there COULD be a universal restriction!! Not for that particular “socialogical” reason, but for a THEOLOGICALLY SOUND reason???
Oh, you betcha!
And yes, GOD BLESS our Holy Father!
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katherine2
Guest
Yes. The particular sociological reason doesn’t lead one to the conclusion of a universal rule. Other valid (theological) reasons might be out there; who knows.
Let me approach this differently. In the early Church, various ministries existed in their own right (deacon – a sacramental order – as well as lector, exoricst, and others). Over time, these ministries evolved to transitional orders to the priesthood (deacon included as much as what came to be called the minor orders). “Altar boys” were acutallly a later development (innovation/novelty/reform/modernist crazy idea) to permit boys of the parish to perform the function (but not hold the office) of the minor order of acoylte.
The Vatican Council II most particularly focused on the highest of these transitional orders – the diaconate - and determined that this office needed to be renewed and employed as a ministry in its own right for the Church. Hence, unlike before the Council when the diaconate was only a period of one year (for some religious orders, a day) prior to priestly ordination, we now have deacons ordained for that ministry who are not candidates for the priesthood. Priestly candidates still spend a year as a transitional deacon (I beleive it is no longer permitted to ordain men to the diaconate the day before their priestly ordination).
At the same time of reform, what were formerly called the minor orders are now also considered ministries in their own right rather than tranistional to the priesthood (though priestly candidates do transition through them).
I think this understanding makes it easier to accept that the ministry of altar server can be a ministry in its own right but will still in some particular cases be used as a transitional ministry towards ordination.
Pray for our Holy Father, teh first pope in modern times to expand the inclusion of women into ministries, as he faces illness
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Catholic2003
Guest
Pope Paul VI also did his part by allowing both women and men to be EHMC’s.
I’m not sure who opened up the liturgical role of reader to women. It may have been under Pope Paul VI’s pontificate as well.
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jlw
Guest
Thankfully, my parish’s consesus is “If we are told theologically why we have MALE-only priests, then it only follows that there should be MALE-only altar servers.”
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fix
Guest
I never said that. Some of them may be unfaithful for other reasons. And yes, we have profound differences in many areas.
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fix
Guest
Kielbasi said:
He may allow them, but that does not mean he is in favor. There many be others reasons for his approval. It is not as if it is a theological error. I point out again that the Vatican documents specifically point out no one has a right to serve and male servers should be specifically fostered. If he was a significant supporter perhaps he would have mandated they must be used even if the bishops and priests disagree.
It does not seem to be a glowing endorsement, perhaps you have proof the Pope feels as you say?
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Deacon_Tony560
Guest
The unfaithful are those who refuse to respect the teaching authority of the church, given by Christ himself to the pope and the bishops through apostolic succession.
See also thread on this page entitled, “Positive Affirmative Rule.” This is a good study on how procedures are handled that come from the Magisterium.
See also thread on this page entitled, “Positive Affirmative Rule.” This is a good study on how procedures are handled that come from the Magisterium.
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katherine2
Guest
You might want to entertain the thought that people (even the pope) can firmly believe in the appropriateness of a particular action without using all available authority to impose it on other people.
Of course, that would be liberality and subsidiarity. Dangerous concepts.
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Sean.McKenzie
Guest
I don’t understand what the argument is all about, Pope John Paul II explicitly says only boys may serve at the altar, what is so hard about understanding this. It has been a church tradition, SO STOP!!, pure and simple. Would you label Pope JPII as a “sexist”, and being “socially unjust”
There really is no argument, it apparently ha been brought up by JPII as you can see, and he has made a string point of it, no need for interpretation and bickering.
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Catholic2003
Guest
Since you indicated in this thread that you are working on a book on liturgical abuse, I will take the time to explain it to you in some detail.
Let’s start with the first “Pope John Paul II” quote, from the church document Inaestimabile Donum. The first thing to notice is that the date of the document is 1980, which was before the promulgation of the 1983 Code of Canon Law that allowed female altar servers. The second thing to notice is that the author of the document is the Sacred Congregation for the Sacraments and Divine Worship, not Pope John Paul II himself. It was not approved by the Pope in forma specifica, so it only has curial authority, not papal authority. The document is an instruction, so it does not make liturgical law, but only interprets it. Thus, it was abrogated by the 1983 code, and is no longer in force. Only traditionalists who reject the authority of the 1983 Code of Canon Law would think otherwise. The third thing to notice is that nowhere does the document contain the sentence, “Only men and boys may serve the altar”. As Katherine points out, people who have the facts on their side don’t need to make things up.
The second “Pope John Paul II” quote doesn’t really say where it is from. It certainly isn’t contained in Redemptionis Sacramentum, which is where it would need to be if it were to have any authority at all.
As for Pope Boniface, it is impossible for one pope to bind a future pope with respect to matters of discipline, such as female altar servers (or the celibacy of the clergy, for that matter).
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Catholic2003
Guest
P.S. I haven’t been able to track down the last “quote” from Pope Boniface. The closest I have come so far is from Pope Benedict XIV, in the encyclical Allatae Sunt, promulgated in 1755. But the point I made stands regardless.
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fix
Guest
Keep in mind the Vatican has said female servers may be permitted if a bishop allows it and the priest agrees, that is about it. Again, I see no glowing in endorsement it must be done everywhere, with great frequency and fervor. The Vatican has said specifically that male servers should be fostered. The Vatican has not said female servers should be fostered, specifically.You might want to entertain the thought that people (even the pope) can firmly believe in the appropriateness of a particular action without using all available authority to impose it on other people.
Of course, that would be liberality and subsidiarity. Dangerous concepts.
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davy39
Guest
I for one hope this thread ends soon. I am sick and tired of people blaming the “problems” of vocations on girl altar servers. Here in the Toledo diocese, (Ohio), we have more that our share of male altar servers, but only one priest ordained last year. I haven’t heard one person blame our problem on girls. It’s just that enough men don’t want to make the sacrifice and to study to be a priest. Society tells them to go out and party, and make as much money as you can, and you’ll be happy. And they listen! But keep praying for vocations. Maybe things will change someday. God bless.
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katherine2
Guest
Then I guess we are all happy, fix. No one here has argued that girls have to made mandatory everywhere, with great frequency and ferver. We have simply supported the Church’s current discipline. if you have come around to that position as well, then God bless you. It is wonderful when brethren can dwell in harmony.
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fix
Guest
I was replying to a poster who seemed to be implying the Pope enthusiastically supports female servers. The reason given was that because it is allowed it means the Pope thinks it is a great idea. The Pope allows all manner of things to go one for many reasons. Some of the things that go on in the Church I would imagine he does not personally care for, he has reasons for allowing things, even not disciplining those who foster error. I am not saying female servers are fostering error, only making a point about what the Pope may or may not prefer.
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