Girl Altar Servers

[SpiritusSanctus]

Thank you for sharing that video — I know when I have seen ligurgical dance it has been in the context of a multi-cultural liturgy - Asian or African influences as the Cardinal shared where they have these as common parts of their liturgy - and I found it very moving as an entrance and offertory processional - it was prayerful, and not showy at all… I think it enhanced the adoration and worship - it wasn’t for show - it was kind of an outward sign of the entire congregation entering into the service - so sorry I know that isn’t how many feel here - but I found it really beautiful and appropriate.

Are you saying you actually find liturgical dance “beautiful and appropriate”? Please! Liturgical dance is disgusting and un-appropriate. It completely distracts people from focusing on the presence of Christ at the altar. It used to not even be part of any Mass reffered to as “Catholic” until the reform during Vatican II. That’s when it was thrown in there. Thankfully not all Novus Ordo parishes have it, in fact many do not, but those that do should really be ashamed of themselves. Liturgical dancing is not Catholic. It has no place in Mass.You certainly won’t see it during a TLM.

 

[4elise]

Are you saying you actually find liturgical dance “beautiful and appropriate”? Please! Liturgical dance is disgusting and un-appropriate. It completely distracts people from focusing on the presence of Christ at the altar. It used to not even be part of any Mass reffered to as “Catholic” until the reform during Vatican II. That’s when it was thrown in there. Thankfully not all Novus Ordo parishes have it, in fact many do not, but those that do should really be ashamed of themselves. Liturgical dancing is not Catholic. It has no place in Mass.You certainly won’t see it during a TLM.

I watched the video that Janet1983 shared from the Cardinal who spoke about liturgical dance as it is part of African and Asian traditions - I have gone to multi-cultural liturgies where it has been used as part of the enterance and offeratory - they were beautiful and respectful and I think that they actually enhanced the Mass - now - I think it would be completely out of place at the usual 7:00 a.m Mass that we attend, with the old fashioned hymns - that would be out of place. But, yes, at these multicultural liturgies I found them meaningful and a beautiful expression of the traditions from these different cultures - it emphisized for me the catholic part of the Catholic church…
Blessings

 

[4elise]

Agreed, what your priest did was not the way it should have been happened, and I hope that you have been able to find a reasonable solution. He certainly has the privilege to choose who he wants to serve for him, but to make the decision publicly is not correct.

And yes we do need to encourage girls to serve the Church and to consider voctations as Sisters and Nuns, but altar serving is almost purposefully designed to familiarize the server with the duties of a priest and have been seen as a way of encouraging priestly vocations for centuries.

Thank you for understanding the point I was trying to make - at the time we just told our daughter that it was the right of the priest to make that choice - and we tried not to make a big deal out of it…
But since it is the option of each Bishop - if the Bishop authorizes it in his diocese - then how can each priest make that choice?

 

[ProVobis]

And yes we do need to encourage girls to serve the Church and to consider voctations as Sisters and Nuns, but altar serving is almost purposefully designed to familiarize the server with the duties of a priest and have been seen as a way of encouraging priestly vocations for centuries.

Yes, but even in pre-Vatican II days, in cases where priests would say Mass for cloistered nuns, they’d be “serving” insofar as making the required server responses.

That said, in public Masses, I’m all for male servers.

 

[Ockham]

I watched the video that Janet1983 shared from the Cardinal who spoke about liturgical dance as it is part of African and Asian traditions - I have gone to multi-cultural liturgies where it has been used as part of the enterance and offeratory - they were beautiful and respectful and I think that they actually enhanced the Mass - now - I think it would be completely out of place at the usual 7:00 a.m Mass that we attend, with the old fashioned hymns - that would be out of place. But, yes, at these multicultural liturgies I found them meaningful and a beautiful expression of the traditions from these different cultures - it emphisized for me the catholic part of the Catholic church…
Blessings

Regional cultures do not trump the Church. Would hip hop be appropriate in a Harlem parish? Rain dances in Aboriginal? Belly dancing in Samoa? We need to leave our cultures in the narthex and enter the nave to worship God, not ourselves.

 

[4elise]

Regional cultures do not trump the Church. Would hip hop be appropriate in a Harlem parish? Rain dances in Aboriginal? Belly dancing in Samoa? We need to leave our cultures in the narthex and enter the nave to worship God, not ourselves.

Again… I was responding to the video with Eminence Francis Cardinal Arinze… and my own experience attending a Mass where Asians (Vietnamese) and African (Ghanian) were there and it gave me the opportunity to experience the universality of the Catholic Church - I found it very moving and inspirational.

 

[4elise]

Again… I was responding to the video with Eminence Francis Cardinal Arinze… and my own experience attending a Mass where Asians (Vietnamese) and African (Ghanian) were there and it gave me the opportunity to experience the universality of the Catholic Church - I found it very moving and inspirational.

P.S. and I don’t know about the hip hop or rain dance - but I do believe that in American Samoa they do incorporate some traditional dance and music into the liturgy -

 

[ProVobis]

it gave me the opportunity to experience the universality of the Catholic Church

I don’t think I’d call that “universality.” It’s more like encouraging break away cultures. (I’m at a loss for the exact word.) There’s nothing universal about those kinds of liturgical dancing.

 

[Ockham]

the universality of the Catholic Church - I found it very moving and inspirational.

The four marks of the Church are: one, holy, catholic (universal) and apostolic. Universal means we are united, not separated by temporal cultures and uniqueness. Your line of thinking is why there is 30,000 Protestant denominations, many of them moved and inspired yet ultimately wrong.

 

[SenorSalsa]

Thank you for understanding the point I was trying to make - at the time we just told our daughter that it was the right of the priest to make that choice - and we tried not to make a big deal out of it…
But since it is the option of each Bishop - if the Bishop authorizes it in his diocese - then how can each priest make that choice?

Basically the Bishop gives permission for pastors to allow female servers, but its up to the individual pastor if he will allow them in his parish. And I suppose from there its also up to the individual priest if he wants to allow them. There are many parishes that do not allow girl altar servers, even though the Bishop says that they can.

 

[Bluegoat]

I don’t think I’d call that “universality.” It’s more like encouraging break away cultures. (I’m at a loss for the exact word.) There’s nothing universal about those kinds of liturgical dancing.

I believe the CC does actually allow for dancing in the liturgy in some non-Western cultures. Which would make it Catholic.

Remember, many of the things we see (or don’t see) in the liturgy here are not somehow a necessary part of the liturgy, they are examples of a culturally produced addition. Why is it that Italian style vestments are ok, but South African ones would be somehow “break away” Italians are part of a particular culture as much as People from Lesotho are.

Dance would have to be considered in the same framework. The objective ( the Eucharist) and the subjective (the culture or place.) And FWIW, I think we already have “liturgical dance” in the West. Dance is really just moving the body in a particular and meaningful way, as an individual or a group. Which is what the priest and servers do, especially at a High Mass. THe problem with what we call “liturgical dance” is it is totally culturally inappropriate here.

 

[4elise]

I don’t think I’d call that “universality.” It’s more like encouraging break away cultures. (I’m at a loss for the exact word.) There’s nothing universal about those kinds of liturgical dancing.

youtube.com/watch?v=9rJFdmmqj_s&feature=player_embedded# This is the video that was posted - and as the Cardinal noted these Asian and Africans had a way of honoring and worshiping that was appropriate. I’ve traveled a great deal and I really enjoy the way local Churches celebrate the Mass - the core is always the same - the atmosphere may be different, and the way the people participate may be different, but we are all Catholics and I think it is great to see how the same faith, love and worship of God takes place by people around the world.

Blessings

 

[Javl]

I believe the CC does actually allow for dancing in the liturgy in some non-Western cultures. Which would make it Catholic.

Remember, many of the things we see (or don’t see) in the liturgy here are not somehow a necessary part of the liturgy, they are examples of a culturally produced addition. Why is it that Italian style vestments are ok, but South African ones would be somehow “break away” Italians are part of a particular culture as much as People from Lesotho are.

Dance would have to be considered in the same framework. The objective ( the Eucharist) and the subjective (the culture or place.) And FWIW, I think we already have “liturgical dance” in the West. Dance is really just moving the body in a particular and meaningful way, as an individual or a group. Which is what the priest and servers do, especially at a High Mass. THe problem with what we call “liturgical dance” is it is totally culturally inappropriate here.

There is nothing in canon law to deny the use of dancing in the liturgy. If it is not in canon law, it can be allowed within “reason”.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom haMeshiach

 

[dominicandinah]

Agreed, what your priest did was not the way it should have been happened, and I hope that you have been able to find a reasonable solution. He certainly has the privilege to choose who he wants to serve for him, but to make the decision publicly is not correct.

And yes we do need to encourage girls to serve the Church and to consider voctations as Sisters and Nuns, but altar serving is almost purposefully designed to familiarize the server with the duties of a priest and have been seen as a way of encouraging priestly vocations for centuries.

Just out of curiousity…has there been a reliable study done that shows that because of female altar servers, we have a decline in vocations? For centuries, the priest’s only job was the Sacraments. Even today, his most important task is the Mass, but there are so many more things that he had to deal with that are literally outside the Church building. Being an altar server has nothing to do with what a priest does during the other 22 hours of his day that he is not at Mass. Could the added responsibilites of a priest be the reason young men are choosing another path? Are we to assume that being an altar serving is going to help when a priest is called to an emergency at the hospital in the middle of the night? Or to be a marriage counselor? Seriously, am I the only one that is tired of hearing that if we only had “altar boys” we’d have more priests?

 

[ProVobis]

youtube.com/watch?v=9rJFdmmqj_s&feature=player_embedded# This is the video that was posted - and as the Cardinal noted these Asian and Africans had a way of honoring and worshiping that was appropriate. I’ve traveled a great deal and I really enjoy the way local Churches celebrate the Mass - the core is always the same - the atmosphere may be different, and the way the people participate may be different, but we are all Catholics and I think it is great to see how the same faith, love and worship of God takes place by people around the world.

Blessings

So it is okay for one culture to employ birth control devices to stop AIDS, for example, while another culture is prohibited from the practice? Or stop population growth when necessary, per Pope Paul VI’s Progressio Populorum? I’m sorry but catholic means universal and, plain and simple, I don’t see that. You can call them Catholics, but as another postor suggested, there’s a mark missing.

 

[Ockham]

Just out of curiousity…has there been a reliable study done that shows that because of female altar servers, we have a decline in vocations?

Yes there are many. The decline in seminarians began after V2 along with the Novus Ordo, clericalization of the laity and other things like altar girls. If the prominence of the priesthood was restored we’d have more of them instead of poorly paid social workers.

 

[Bluegoat]

Just out of curiousity…has there been a reliable study done that shows that because of female altar servers, we have a decline in vocations? For centuries, the priest’s only job was the Sacraments. Even today, his most important task is the Mass, but there are so many more things that he had to deal with that are literally outside the Church building. Being an altar server has nothing to do with what a priest does during the other 22 hours of his day that he is not at Mass. Could the added responsibilites of a priest be the reason young men are choosing another path? Are we to assume that being an altar serving is going to help when a priest is called to an emergency at the hospital in the middle of the night? Or to be a marriage counselor? Seriously, am I the only one that is tired of hearing that if we only had “altar boys” we’d have more priests?

No, I am tired of it being pronounced as if it was a fact.

There seems to be some indication that more traditionalist groups produce more vocations, but that still doesn’t show that altar servers are an important component. It might be, but that isn’t a proof. We’d have to compare otherwise similar groups where the only difference was the sex of the servers.

Personally, I think there is a more complex relationship. I think there are fewer people overall who attend church, so who want to be servers, and women in general are more represented in congregations. Fewer people, and fewer who take their religion as a calling, mean not only fewer servers but fewer vocations. Even if you self-identify as Catholic you can’t be a sever if you are at hockey practice every week. There are also some cultural attitudes toward sexual expression that have particularly impacted vocations but likely aren’t really related to altar servers at all.

So I don’t find the argument that dissallowing female servers will increase vocations convincing. I think it will just mean fewer servers. Other things could be done that might increase both the number of people who wanted to be servers and vocations, or one or the other.

 

[Ockham]

There is nothing in canon law to deny the use of dancing in the liturgy. If it is not in canon law, it can be allowed within “reason”.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom haMeshiach

So if something isn’t specifically denied in canon law it’s permissable? That doesn’t seem reasonable.

 

[ProVobis]

Just out of curiousity…has there been a reliable study done that shows that because of female altar servers, we have a decline in vocations?

I have seen one study where a decline in male servers that has resulted in increased female servers which further declined male serving in the OF. I’ll see if I can locate that.

One reason perhaps the OF has such a wider appeal is that it is more femininist-friendly. My observations only, though.

 

[Ockham]

There seems to be some indication that more traditionalist groups produce more vocations,

Seems? It’s a fact. The FSSP and SSPX have more seminarians per priest than any other order. If that is not a convincing argument for you then nothing will be.