Girl Altar Servers

[Bluegoat]

Seems? It’s a fact. The FSSP and SSPX have more seminarians per priest than any other order. If that is not a convincing argument for you then nothing will be.

As I said, it is a logical fallacy to say that because they have only male servers they produce more vocations. Even when you can show a correlation between two factors, it does not show that one causes the other. This is basic reasoning - more is required to say that male severs will lead to more vocations. I am not being unusually difficult in asking for a more substantial argument than one based on fallacious thinking.

 

[Bluegoat]

I have seen one study where a decline in male servers that has resulted in increased female servers which further declined male serving in the OF. I’ll see if I can locate that.

One reason perhaps the OF has such a wider appeal is that it is more femininist-friendly. My observations only, though.

I wonder how they would show that though? In the sense that it happened necessarily?

I am pretty sure that it is true that male servers declined around the same time female ones increased. But, the reasons were not necessarily the same. We also can’t assume that anything that would result in fewer male servers is bad - for if they became absent because they were more likely to reject certain teachings, for example.

Now, I think that a lack of male servers probably was part of the reason women began to be considered, (as well as new thinking about women’s roles). But that also doesn’t show that not allowing them would increase the number of men, if the factors causing the decrease in boys were still around. Nor would it show that reconsidering women’s roles was wrong.

I think what would be really nice would be if every church had more servers than they needed, so whoever was the person who organized them would never have to scramble to get enough for Mass and no one would have to serve every week.

 

[4elise]

So it is okay for one culture to employ birth control devices to stop AIDS, for example, while another culture is prohibited from the practice? Or stop population growth when necessary, per Pope Paul VI’s Progressio Populorum? I’m sorry but catholic means universal and, plain and simple, I don’t see that. You can call them Catholics, but as another postor suggested, there’s a mark missing.

did you watch the video and the comments from the Cardinal?

 

[Bluegoat]

did you watch the video and the comments from the Cardinal?

Catholics are united by belief, doctrine, and authority, not by the cut of their cope.

 

[4elise]

Catholics are united by belief, doctrine, and authority, not by the cut of their cope.

 

[Ockham]

As I said, it is a logical fallacy to say that because they have only male servers they produce more vocations.

Sorry to rain on your logic parade, but the fact the traditional orders have the highest ratio of seminarians to priests is not a fallacy. Although it isn’t the only factor, altar girls is one facet of the Novus Ordo and ‘spirit of V2’ which combined shows a direct correlation to the decline in NO priests.

I’m tired of people unable or unwilling to connect the dots.

 

[ProVobis]

…

Sorry 4elise is a moderator/admin and you are not allowed to ignore him or her.

 

[SpiritusSanctus]

I watched the video that Janet1983 shared from the Cardinal who spoke about liturgical dance as it is part of African and Asian traditions - I have gone to multi-cultural liturgies where it has been used as part of the enterance and offeratory - they were beautiful and respectful and I think that they actually enhanced the Mass - now - I think it would be completely out of place at the usual 7:00 a.m Mass that we attend, with the old fashioned hymns - that would be out of place. But, yes, at these multicultural liturgies I found them meaningful and a beautiful expression of the traditions from these different cultures - it emphisized for me the catholic part of the Catholic church…
Blessings

Multi-Cultural liturgies are not really the Catholic Church. The true Catholic Church does not have dancing in it. Perhaps they intend to come off as Catholic, but in the end they fail by adding the liturgical dance. Even in multi-cultural churches, liturgical dance has no place. Any Mass that has it isn’t a Mass you need to be attending.

 

[4elise]

Sorry 4elise is a moderator/admin and you are not allowed to ignore him or her.

Now very confused… I didn’t understand the reply to my post… thought using helped to express that… was not intended to ignore - just seek clarification.

 

[Bluegoat]

Sorry to rain on your logic parade, but the fact the traditional orders have the highest ratio of seminarians to priests is not a fallacy. Although it isn’t the only factor, altar girls is one facet of the Novus Ordo and ‘spirit of V2’ which combined shows a direct correlation to the decline in NO priests.

I’m tired of people unable or unwilling to connect the dots.

A fallacy applies to the reasoning, not the facts, which are true or false.

I have not disputed the fact that traditional groups have a lot of vocations.

But the problem is saying -

Premise - they have a lot of vocations
premise - they have no female altar servers
Conclusion - therefore female altar servers cause a decrease in vocations
Conclusion - therefore removing female altar servers will result in an increase in vocations

Even if the premises were true, and I don’t dispute that, the conclusions are based on fallacies of logic. If they are true, that is not why.

 

[4elise]

Multi-Cultural liturgies are not really the Catholic Church. The true Catholic Church does not have dancing in it. Perhaps they intend to come off as Catholic, but in the end they fail by adding the liturgical dance. Even in multi-cultural churches, liturgical dance has no place. Any Mass that has it isn’t a Mass you need to be attending.

I am sorry if I am responsible for taking this tread off topic… I was only trying to reply in favor of a post that included a link to a video with an African Cardinal - who expressed the same issue regarding US and European Church - no place for liturgical dance - however he continued to say that among African and Asian Catholics it is more a part of their culture so more appropriate. Having attended Masses - concelebrated by Cardinals - that included multicultural elements, including liturgical dance - I only wanted to share that I (just me - because I can only speak for me) found it inspirational and respectful and really beautiful - not distracting – I would find it out of place at our usual parish Mass — anyway - again - sorry if I’ve scandalized anyone!

 

[Ockham]

A fallacy applies to the reasoning, not the facts, which are true or false.

Reasoning would be appropriate right now.

The loss of prominence among the priesthood has contributed to the decline in seminarians. The priesthood is exclusive to males. Only priests can offer the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Allowing females to assist the priests decreases the prominence of altar servers.

Just because you say something is a fallacy doesn’t make it so or a wrong conclusion. The Anglican denomination is in decline and coincidentally has female ministers.

 

[Kamonian_Wax]

Um,no. I’m not kidding.

During some Novus Ordo Masses they will. They hold those stupid bowls that look like witches’ pots with smoke coming out of them,too.

Wait… Novus Ordo means Ordinary Form. Mass in Ordinary Form: Novus Ordo is your everyday Vatican II Mass. Sure, there really was a lot of confusion and mistakes that were made in interpreting how the new form of Mass should be carried out, but I bet fluked Masses like those nowadays are very isolated and only associated to pastors who are not obeying or associating themselves with their local bishops.

 

[Bluegoat]

Reasoning would be appropriate right now.

The loss of prominence among the priesthood has contributed to the decline in seminarians. The priesthood is exclusive to males. Only priests can offer the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Allowing females to assist the priests decreases the prominence of altar servers.

Just because you say something is a fallacy doesn’t make it so or a wrong conclusion. The Anglican denomination is in decline and coincidentally has female ministers.

I am not sure the decline in seminarians is only because of the loss of prominence to the priesthood. Whether it is the most important one, I am not sure, it depends on what you mean by prominence. And Certianly it is true that priests are men and their primary function is to preform the Mass.

Now, since women are not allowed to be priests, you are not I think saying that the loss of prominence relates to women being priests. That would be silly.

But where do you get the bit that allowing women to assist the priests reduces their prominence? It doesn’t even correspond to your assertions about the priesthood, which have nothing to do with women?

 

[Ockham]

I can’t prove it in a logical equation, but common knowledge of the psychology of children should indicate boys like to be boys. If altar servers are exclusive to boys it rises the prominence, attracts more of them, more will stick around the altar in their adult lives as priests. Of course it’s not the only factor, but one of the contributing to the overall decline in the Church.

 

[Bluegoat]

I can’t prove it in a logical equation, but common knowledge of the psychology of children should indicate boys like to be boys. If altar servers are exclusive to boys it rises the prominence, attracts more of them, more will stick around the altar in their adult lives as priests. Of course it’s not the only factor, but one of the contributing to the overall decline in the Church.

This could be a factor. Though if it is, those boys need a kick in the pants from parents and the priest. But it seems to me that other factors are so much more important that it could easily be addressed in other ways which don’t involve telling girls they can’t serve. For example, I think, and I’m sure in Ontario you should be able to identify with this, that hockey has a huge effect on boys not being available for church at all on Sunday, much less available to be servers.

In fact, boys regularly used to be told that they would be servers, whether they wanted to or not.

 

[Ockham]

This could be a factor. Though if it is, those boys need a kick in the pants from parents and the priest. But it seems to me that other factors are so much more important that it could easily be addressed in other ways which don’t involve telling girls they can’t serve. For example, I think, and I’m sure in Ontario you should be able to identify with this, that hockey has a huge effect on boys not being available for church at all on Sunday, much less available to be servers.

In fact, boys regularly used to be told that they would be servers, whether they wanted to or not.

Hockey, baseball, computer games or any other distractions are mere excuses all of which were available pre-V2.

 

[Cristiano]

Hockey, baseball, computer games or any other distractions are mere excuses all of which were available pre-V2.

I call BS on this. V2 has nothing to do with it, and neither the fact that the sports were available before V2.

It has to do with today’s parents that do not put priority on the Church and so the kids do not show any interest. If a father were to put priority on the Church and push his sons to serve we would have more boys as altar servers. The lack of boys in the servers ranks is due to the lack of sense of self-sacrifice that parents show through lack of true participation in the Church and through birth control. Yes, birth control is a men issue because it is an easy way to dump the reproductive choices on women with the men not having to do any sacrifice. Our sons see that!

Recently my son picked an altar server retreat over the last dance at his Catholic school. He did that without any (name removed by moderator)ut from my side, I simply asked about his wishes. How is that? Because I am the spiritual leader of the family and I make sure that our first priority in life is to be Catholics. When I look around my parish and I see women that are the spiritual leaders of the family I see their girls involved with serving in different roles.

I do not see a lot of either married or single men involved in too many parish activities, but I see just a bunch of whining babies complaining that they do not want to argue with women. Who is willing to die for Christ when we are not even willing to stand some discomfort by addressing local issues.We should stop blaming JPII and the “disobedient” Bishops and we should man up and own responsibilities for the lack of our own involvement.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

So it is okay for one culture to employ birth control devices to stop AIDS, for example, while another culture is prohibited from the practice? Or stop population growth when necessary, per Pope Paul VI’s Progressio Populorum? I’m sorry but catholic means universal and, plain and simple, I don’t see that. You can call them Catholics, but as another postor suggested, there’s a mark missing.

Birth control is not allowed for any Catholic. But there are definately areas under our prudential judgement and if canon law does not state that dance is forbidden, than it’s not. I don’t at all agree with “liturgical dance” as it is attempted in the West because it is out of our culture (and as a dancer, I also think it is generally bad dance). However, I would never say that a Catholic from a country where dance is part of the culture should not do it just because I find the “white leotard” dancing in the west/US to be disgraceful.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

I call BS on this. V2 has nothing to do with it, and neither the fact that the sports were available before V2.

It has to do with today’s parents that do not put priority on the Church and so the kids do not show any interest. If a father were to put priority on the Church and push his sons to serve we would have more boys as altar servers. The lack of boys in the servers ranks is due to the lack of sense of self-sacrifice that parents show through lack of true participation in the Church and through birth control. Yes, birth control is a men issue because it is an easy way to dump the reproductive choices on women with the men not having to do any sacrifice. Our sons see that!

Recently my son picked an altar server retreat over the last dance at his Catholic school. He did that without any (name removed by moderator)ut from my side, I simply asked about his wishes. How is that? Because I am the spiritual leader of the family and I make sure that our first priority in life is to be Catholics. When I look around my parish and I see women that are the spiritual leaders of the family I see their girls involved with serving in different roles.

I do not see a lot of either married or single men involved in too many parish activities, but I see just a bunch of whining babies complaining that they do not want to argue with women. Who is willing to die for Christ when we are not even willing to stand some discomfort by addressing local issues.We should stop blaming JPII and the “disobedient” Bishops and we should man up and own responsibilities for the lack of our own involvement.

:clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping:

Amen brother!