Girl Altar Servers

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CDNowak said:
It was born out of disobedience, like it or not. Calling into question the practice of female altar servers is not an attack on the Teaching Authority of the Church, but a question of the prudence of the introduction of the novelty (in spite of centuries of tradition, if not Tradition, condemning the practice).
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Get over yourself and just follow the Catholic Church. It is remarkable that somehow you feel your personal preference should trump what the Church actually allows.
CDNowak said:
Honestly this debate should have happened behind closed doors fifteen years ago, before the implementation happened, and the policy is fair play for re-examination on every level: for the Latin Church, the local bishop, the pastor, the priest, and the individual (if for nothing else, for the sake of ecumenism I say we reverse it 😉 ).
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More hubris! You’re now inferring the Church didn’t engage in fruitful debate of this issue simply because its conclusion did not match your personal preference? This continual dissent gets mighty old after a while…
 
No get over your own hubris…these recent changes fly in the face of tradition and we MUST hold fast to tradition…I guess you think St. Pius X and other popes were wrong…because they have greatly different opinions than those of the last few Popes…and they can’t both be right. So I ask you, was SAINT Pius X and The Catholic Church prior to Vatican II wrong…or are the most recent popes wrong…this is not an infallible issue, and I am sorry, but I side with 1900+ years of tradition on an issue that has not been infallibly defined…that is TRUE obedience to Holy Mother Church…look at EVERYTHING in the scope of tradition and realizing there have been some mistakes made. On one side of the coin we have over 1900+ years of tradition and on the other, we hardly even have 1 generation (40 years) of “tradition”…
ChurchTorch said:
Get over yourself and just follow the Catholic Church. It is remarkable that somehow you feel your personal preference should trump what the Church actually allows.

More hubris! You’re now inferring the Church didn’t engage in fruitful debate of this issue simply because its conclusion did not match your personal preference? This continual dissent gets mighty old after a while…
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ChurchTorch said:
Get over yourself and just follow the Catholic Church. It is remarkable that somehow you feel your personal preference should trump what the Church actually allows.
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I do follow the Church, but question the *prudence *of a current discipline, one that was changed despite the fierce opposition of tradition.

My personal preference, as you put it, is built upon the objections of Popes to the practice, the abuse through neglect of current practice in regards the Instituted ministries (that servers substitute for), and the inconsistency of the practice of girls to serve at the altar and the reasons for altar boys (the main reason for allowing altar boys is to encourage vocations). If you are unable or unwilling to discuss said issues, then it is you, not I who needs to “Get over yourself”.
ChurchTorch said:
More hubris! You’re now inferring the Church didn’t engage in fruitful debate of this issue simply because its conclusion did not match your personal preference? This continual dissent gets mighty old after a while…
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I merely suggest that, as indicated by the history, that this was not given the attention it deserved. At least since the time of Pope St. Gelasius (before 500 AD) the Church has forbidden this practice, repeated after the Second Vatican Council (Liturgicae Instaurationes). As to my knowledge only the Latin Church permits this novelty.

The abuse of allowing altar girls arose under this condemnation (some reports put it back as early as before the council), and with the revision of canon law was accidentally allowed. When the canonical issue was finally taken to Rome the result was capitulation, the reasoning entirely based on the new code of canon law and ignoring the universal condemnation of tradition.

This ignorance gets dangerous after a while…
 
CDNowak…don’t you know that if a single bishop, much less a large number of bishops aprrove and accept it…no matter what it is, it is the Gospel handed down from Christ himself and we MUST follow it without deviation, because these are infallible men who can not make any mistakes whatsoever…LOL
CDNowak said:
I do follow the Church, but question the *prudence *of a current discipline, one that was changed despite the fierce opposition of tradition.

My personal preference, as you put it, is built upon the objections of Popes to the practice, the abuse through neglect of current practice in regards the Instituted ministries (that servers substitute for), and the inconsistency of the practice of girls to serve at the altar and the reasons for altar boys (the main reason for allowing altar boys is to encourage vocations). If you are unable or unwilling to discuss said issues, then it is you, not I who needs to “Get over yourself”.

I merely suggest that, as indicated by the history, that this was not given the attention it deserved. At least since the time of Pope St. Gelasius (before 500 AD) the Church has forbidden this practice, repeated after the Second Vatican Council (Liturgicae Instaurationes). As to my knowledge only the Latin Church permits this novelty.

The abuse of allowing altar girls arose under this condemnation (some reports put it back as early as before the council), and with the revision of canon law was accidentally allowed. When the canonical issue was finally taken to Rome the result was capitulation, the reasoning entirely based on the new code of canon law and ignoring the universal condemnation of tradition.

This ignorance gets dangerous after a while…
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my 9 year old daughter is an alter server and no she does NOT want to be a priest she wants to be a scientist when she grows up…
 
Im sorry, but how is this relevant to the discussion…it has nothing to do with the point we are debating. Thanks
reaganjn said:
my 9 year old daughter is an alter server and no she does NOT want to be a priest she wants to be a scientist when she grows up…
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Amen!!!
ChurchTorch said:
I like the idea of allowing both females and males.

I also like the idea of the laity (particularly males) getting off the couch and PRAYING + WORKING to build a MASSIVE corps of all male altar servers. Yeah, I know, you pastor won’t allow that. Changing his mind is part of that PRAYER + WORK.

I don’t care where it is, with enough males involved as servers it would get to the point where females wouldn’t dare sign-up. But it would take PRAYER, WORK, SACRIFICE and RESOLVE along with FAITH. Many simply do not have what it takes to hang in there and win the war…

Imagine if in one of these problem parishes a group of a dozen men invited the pastor out to lunch and laid-out a proposal for a new altar server group. You REALLY think he would say “no?” Then keep WORKING and PRAYING!
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ChurchTorch said:
I like the idea of allowing both females and males.

I also like the idea of the laity (particularly males) getting off the couch and PRAYING + WORKING to build a MASSIVE corps of all male altar servers. Yeah, I know, you pastor won’t allow that. Changing his mind is part of that PRAYER + WORK.

I don’t care where it is, with enough males involved as servers it would get to the point where females wouldn’t dare sign-up. But it would take PRAYER, WORK, SACRIFICE and RESOLVE along with FAITH. Many simply do not have what it takes to hang in there and win the war…

Imagine if in one of these problem parishes a group of a dozen men invited the pastor out to lunch and laid-out a proposal for a new altar server group. You REALLY think he would say “no?” Then keep WORKING and PRAYING!
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Then I guess you’re willing to ignore past encyclicals that spoke out against female altar servers.
 
SpiritusSanctus said:
Then I guess you’re willing to ignore past encyclicals that spoke out against female altar servers.
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The point is more that as altar servers are a lay role and are often children that it is in the power of the lay men (fathers and not) to change things at their parish if they so choose. Fathers can encourage their sons, putting a priority on serving over soccer or other activities, and encourage other roles for their daughters. Young men (and older) can continue serving and volunteer to train the boys. Men of all ages can encourage the pastor and help families understand why it is preferable to have only male servers. Finally, and most importantly, the men of the parish can commit to praying for the priests, altar boys, and an increase in vocations from their parish specifically.
 
The Sixth Council of Paris c. 829 AD, says it has learned “that in certain of our provinces, contrary to divine law and canon law, women of their own accord go to the holy altars, and boldly touch the sacred vessels, and give the sacred vestments to priests, and what is even more improper and unsuitable, they give to the people the body and blood of the Lord… That women should not go to the altar is fully found in Canon 44 of the Council of Laodicea, and in the decrees of Pope Gelasius XXVI…”
 
Mrs_Sally said:
The point is more that as altar servers are a lay role and are often children that it is in the power of the lay men (fathers and not) to change things at their parish if they so choose. Fathers can encourage their sons, putting a priority on serving over soccer or other activities, and encourage other roles for their daughters. Young men (and older) can continue serving and volunteer to train the boys. Men of all ages can encourage the pastor and help families understand why it is preferable to have only male servers. Finally, and most importantly, the men of the parish can commit to praying for the priests, altar boys, and an increase in vocations from their parish specifically.
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Yeah, well, that’s kind of what I was getting at.
 
michaeldaniels said:
No get over your own hubris…these recent changes fly in the face of tradition and we MUST hold fast to tradition…I guess you think St. Pius X and other popes were wrong…because they have greatly different opinions than those of the last few Popes…and they can’t both be right. So I ask you, was SAINT Pius X and The Catholic Church prior to Vatican II wrong…or are the most recent popes wrong…this is not an infallible issue, and I am sorry, but I side with 1900+ years of tradition on an issue that has not been infallibly defined…that is TRUE obedience to Holy Mother Church…look at EVERYTHING in the scope of tradition and realizing there have been some mistakes made. On one side of the coin we have over 1900+ years of tradition and on the other, we hardly even have 1 generation (40 years) of “tradition”…
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so are you telling me the current Church is wrong?
the Church is no longer guided by the Holy Spirit?
the gates of Hell has prevailed?
 
choy said:
so are you telling me the current Church is wrong?
the Church is no longer guided by the Holy Spirit?
the gates of Hell has prevailed?
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How about answering his question first: was the previous tradition wrong?
 
michaeldaniels said:
Im sorry, but how is this relevant to the discussion…it has nothing to do with the point we are debating. Thanks
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i apologize for responding in here…i thought i saw a post in here about girls wanting to be priests as well…i THOUGHT i was contributing to conversation…
 
This, communion in the hand, as well as Eucharistic ministers, and many other things I am not in support of. John Paul II strictly forbade this practice, but obviously there are going to be ignorant, and disobedient Bishops that dont listen.
Many Altar boys were declared saints (Ex. St. Dominic Savio) I dont see any Altar Girls, and Eucharistic ministers being canonized.

Forgive me if anyone found this to be offensive.
 
callmeChris said:
This, communion in the hand, as well as Eucharistic ministers, and many other things I am not in support of. John Paul II strictly forbade this practice, but obviously there are going to be ignorant, and disobedient Bishops that dont listen.
Many Altar boys were declared saints (Ex. St. Dominic Savio) I dont see any Altar Girls, and Eucharistic ministers being canonized.

Forgive me if anyone found this to be offensive.
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Exactly.
 
choy said:
so are you telling me the current Church is wrong?
the Church is no longer guided by the Holy Spirit?
the gates of Hell has prevailed?
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Our Lord has said that the gates of Hell shall never prevail against the Church. That’s not what michaeldaniels is talking about. He’s asking you if the Church was wrong before Vatican II. Answer that question first.
 
SpiritusSanctus said:
Our Lord has said that the gates of Hell shall never prevail against the Church. That’s not what michaeldaniels is talking about. He’s asking you if the Church was wrong before Vatican II. Answer that question first.
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Get over your own ego and just follow the Church…
 
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