Girl Altar Servers

[pnewton]

Placed in the context of a two thousand year old institution, the past forty years have been a liturgical revolution in the name of Modern.

Modern, yes. Modernism, no. The first is nothing but a temporal reference. The latter is a philosophical movement that has been roundly condemned by the Church and must be fought at all times by all on all fronts. I am ready to load ammunition beside anyone here on that front. I consider it an insult to be labeled such.

I do not thing the changes you speak of will make the Mass more unrecognizable. Perhaps it is just hope or just my own experience, but I think most of the changes we see over the next couple of years will move the liturgy back to a more traditional practice, not less.

 

[stevusmagnus]

Girl Altars Boys have been condemned by a Council and 3 Popes.

I think that settles it.

 

[franklinf]

Girl Altars Boys have been condemned by a Council and 3 Popes.

I think that settles it.

What Council?

And it was more than 3…Popes Gelasius, Innocent IV, Benedict XIV, Paul VI, John Paul II

 

[stevusmagnus]

What Council?

And it was more than 3…Popes Gelasius, Innocent IV, Benedict XIV, Paul VI, John Paul II

You are correct. Even better.

The Sixth Council of Paris c. 829 AD, says it has learned “that in certain of our provinces, contrary to divine law and canon law, women of their own accord go to the holy altars, and boldly touch the sacred vessels, and give the sacred vestments to priests, and what is even more improper and unsuitable, they give to the people the body and blood of the Lord… That women should not go to the altar is fully found in Canon 44 of the Council of Laodicea, and in the decrees of Pope Gelasius XXVI…”

 

[wisdomseeker]

You are correct. Even better.

**Quote:
The Sixth Council of Paris c. 829 AD, says it has learned “that in certain of our provinces, contrary to divine law and canon law, women of their own accord go to the holy altars, and boldly touch the sacred vessels, and give the sacred vestments to priests, and what is even more improper and unsuitable, they give to the people the body and blood of the Lord… That women should not go to the altar is fully found in Canon 44 of the Council of Laodicea, and in the decrees of Pope Gelasius XXVI…” **

and my question would be: can any pope subsequent change and stablish what has been condemned by other popes in the past?

 

[Javl]

**Quote:
The Sixth Council of Paris c. 829 AD, says it has learned “that in certain of our provinces, contrary to divine law and canon law, women of their own accord go to the holy altars, and boldly touch the sacred vessels, and give the sacred vestments to priests, and what is even more improper and unsuitable, they give to the people the body and blood of the Lord… That women should not go to the altar is fully found in Canon 44 of the Council of Laodicea, and in the decrees of Pope Gelasius XXVI…” **

and my question would be: can any pope subsequent change and stablish what has been condemned by other popes in the past?

The answer to your question is yes, and it has been done by many Popes. Read the history of the Popes.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[choy]

really? we started accepting girls Altar serves, now we have women serving in the Sanctuary. women taking the Host back into the Tabernacle, women distributing the Challices to others. women given Communion. i see the women and the priest trample over each other around the Altar. it wont be long.
soon, women will be saying: if we can do all these things, why can we not be priests? do you see where i am going?

i see where you’re going, but its the wrong direction. all these other things women are helping with are all lay functions in the Church. and any good Catechized women would know that Holy Orders are only given to men. besides, many have asked for women priests long before we even had altar servers. i believe this was addressed by St. Paul in one of his epistles. its nothing new, we just have to remind them about the limits set by Christ himself

because of naive people in teh Church, we have the mess we have today. it is like that lawyer said at World Over program: the bishops allowed disfunctional people into the Church look where we are now. it is costing us millions of dollars and humiliation around the world.

i don’t think its naivity thats the problem, but lack of participation. we need EMHCs because we don’t have enough priests. we have girl altar servers because boys would rather be playing sports or video games on sunday morning

the Church allowed this as a necessity, and because it doesn’t really break any dogma or doctrine of the Church

Jesus and the Apostles had women in their group who support then and provide service to them (perhaps prepare their food? wash their clothes?). why can’t women provide support to the priests today?

 

[SpiritusSanctus]

i see where you’re going, but its the wrong direction. all these other things women are helping with are all lay functions in the Church. and any good Catechized women would know that Holy Orders are only given to men. besides, many have asked for women priests long before we even had altar servers. i believe this was addressed by St. Paul in one of his epistles. its nothing new, we just have to remind them about the limits set by Christ himself

i don’t think its naivity thats the problem, but lack of participation. we need EMHCs because we don’t have enough priests. we have girl altar servers because boys would rather be playing sports or video games on sunday morning

the Church allowed this as a necessity, and because it doesn’t really break any dogma or doctrine of the Church

Jesus and the Apostles had women in their group who support then and provide service to them (perhaps prepare their food? wash their clothes?). why can’t women provide support to the priests today?

If they want to support the priest, the closest they can validly come to doing so is entering the convent. Women shouldn’t be priests or altar servers. You certainly didn’t see Jesus appointing any female priests. Thus why all His Apostles were men.

 

[CDNowak]

and my question would be: can any pope subsequent change and stablish what has been condemned by other popes in the past?

The answer to your question is yes, and it has been done by many Popes. Read the history of the Popes.

Obviously there are limits. What are they? Where does this fall?

i don’t think its naivity thats the problem, but lack of participation. ** we need EMHCs because we don’t have enough priests. ** we have girl altar servers because boys would rather be playing sports or video games on sunday morning

the Church allowed this as a necessity, and because it doesn’t really break any dogma or doctrine of the Church

Neither of these roles are a necessity. EMHCs are not supposed to be used on a regular basis (even if the means only 1 species). Also note, we have approximately the same clergy to people-in-the pew ratio that existed 40 years ago.

Altar servers of any kind are not necessary in the OF (someone has to say the responses in the EF). Necessity as an argument then, is false, by virtue of false premise.

 

[choy]

If they want to support the priest, the closest they can validly come to doing so is entering the convent. Women shouldn’t be priests or altar servers. You certainly didn’t see Jesus appointing any female priests. Thus why all His Apostles were men.

don’t know why you mentioned that because i clearly said that women are not to receive Holy Orders

any support they provide doesn’t require Holy Orders, therefore is not outside of the bounds their role in the church

also i’ve seen nuns function as EMHCs, would you also oppose that?

 

[choy]

Obviously there are limits. What are they? Where does this fall?

Neither of these roles are a necessity. EMHCs are not supposed to be used on a regular basis (even if the means only 1 species). Also note, we have approximately the same clergy to people-in-the pew ratio that existed 40 years ago.

Altar servers of any kind are not necessary in the OF (someone has to say the responses in the EF). Necessity as an argument then, is false, by virtue of false premise.

i don’t know the state of the church you are attending. i used to go to a parish that has 7 masses on Sunday and only two priests in that parish. the church has about the capacity of 1000-1500 people per mass, and every mass its standing room only. are you telling me in this situation its not a necessity to use EMHCs in every mass?

 

[Ockham]

are you telling me in this situation its not a necessity to use EMHCs in every mass?

Necessary? I’d say no. What is necessary is a priest to consecrate and say the Mass. If we restore the dignity and honour of the priesthood we’ll have more priests.

 

[CDNowak]

i don’t know the state of the church you are attending. i used to go to a parish that has 7 masses on Sunday and only two priests in that parish. the church has about the capacity of 1000-1500 people per mass, and every mass its standing room only. are you telling me in this situation its not a necessity to use EMHCs in every mass?

It is necessary (according to Canon Law) to have another priest. (Each priest can say, with the bishops permission, up to 3 Masses on Sunday). Three priest distributing communion at each Mass (300-500 people) should be sufficient.

 

[Jane11]

What is necessary is a priest to consecrate and say the Mass. If we restore the dignity and honour of the priesthood we’ll have more priests.

It is very simple. Satan’s Plan: Satan knows that unless the priest is valid there is no valid Mass and/or Host. Women would not be valid. Next step: desensitize the people to seeing altar girls and female readers and then, guess what? Female priests which equals NO VALID MASS/HOST. So, let’s emasculate the boys and men so they won’t have the courage to become altar boys and readers. Face it, if men won’t overcome their fear or are too lazy to step forward to do a job you better believe a woman will step in and help out.

God’s Plan: desensitize boys to the fear of being in the public eye by having altar boys, desensitize men to fear of being in the public eye by having only male readers, it would be far easier for a boy or man to hear a vocation if they were in those positions and comfortable with them. Overcoming fear gives a boy or a man dignity and honor. Good priests deserve all the dignity and honor we can give them!

 

[Javl]

Quote:
Originally Posted by wisdomseeker
and my question would be: can any pope subsequent change and stablish what has been condemned by other popes in the past?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Javl
The answer to your question is yes, and it has been done by many Popes. Read the history of the Popes.

Obviously there are limits. What are they? Where does this fall?

For answers to your questions, read “Lives Of The Popes”, edited by Michael J. Walsh, Barnes and Noble. It covers from Peter to JohnPaul II.

As an example, in 451 the Council of Chalcedon was convened, the results of which was rejected by Pope Leo I, The Great. There are other examples listed.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Javl]

Quote:
Originally Posted by wisdomseeker
and my question would be: can any pope subsequent change and stablish what has been condemned by other popes in the past?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Javl
The answer to your question is yes, and it has been done by many Popes. Read the history of the Popes.

Obviously there are limits. What are they? Where does this fall?

For answers to your questions, read “Lives Of The Popes”, edited by Michael J. Walsh, Barnes and Noble. It covers from Peter to JohnPaul II.

As an example, in 451 the Council of Chalcedon was convened, the results of which was rejected by Pope Leo I, The Great. There are other examples listed.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[choy]

It is necessary (according to Canon Law) to have another priest. (Each priest can say, with the bishops permission, up to 3 Masses on Sunday). Three priest distributing communion at each Mass (300-500 people) should be sufficient.

you didn’t answer my question

i said there’s 1000-1500 people per mass seven times on a Sunday. there’s two priests and yes, both of them are present at every mass

so, 2 priests, 1000 people. no EMHCs? there’s still 6 other masses after the first.

 

[SpiritusSanctus]

don’t know why you mentioned that because i clearly said that women are not to receive Holy Orders

any support they provide doesn’t require Holy Orders, therefore is not outside of the bounds their role in the church

also i’ve seen nuns function as EMHCs, would you also oppose that?

Yes, I oppose that too. Even males shouldn’t be Eucharistic Ministers, only the priest should be touching the Host.

 

[choy]

It is very simple. Satan’s Plan: Satan knows that unless the priest is valid there is no valid Mass and/or Host. Women would not be valid. Next step: desensitize the people to seeing altar girls and female readers and then, guess what? Female priests which equals NO VALID MASS/HOST. So, let’s emasculate the boys and men so they won’t have the courage to become altar boys and readers. Face it, if men won’t overcome their fear or are too lazy to step forward to do a job you better believe a woman will step in and help out.

God’s Plan: desensitize boys to the fear of being in the public eye by having altar boys, desensitize men to fear of being in the public eye by having only male readers, it would be far easier for a boy or man to hear a vocation if they were in those positions and comfortable with them. Overcoming fear gives a boy or a man dignity and honor. Good priests deserve all the dignity and honor we can give them!

so what do you suggest? the last parish i attended with girl altar servers has 7 sunday masses and 1000-1500 people per mass. if there are no boys willing to serve in the altar, just let the 2 priests handle everything?

everyones just over reacting here. the presence of the Marys among the Apostles didn’t call for women priests, i don’t know why girl altar servers would make that happen. and we all know anyway its never going to happen. women priests is a close subject. get over it. girl altar servers cannot and will not change that

 

[SpiritusSanctus]

so what do you suggest? the last parish i attended with girl altar servers has 7 sunday masses and 1000-1500 people per mass. if there are no boys willing to serve in the altar, just let the 2 priests handle everything?

everyones just over reacting here. the presence of the Marys among the Apostles didn’t call for women priests, i don’t know why girl altar servers would make that happen. and we all know anyway its never going to happen. women priests is a close subject. get over it. girl altar servers cannot and will not change that

If there are no altar boys then the priests can handle things. Under no circumstances what-so-ever should girls be altar servers.