Girl Altar Servers

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pnewton said:
One can not refer to disciplinary practices as such, and point out that they are subject to change, then turn around and treat them as error. There is not moral or doctrinal errors in reference to girl altar servers. There use is either prudent or imprudent. The Church is very capable of doing some foolish things.
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so it is a disciplinary action thats subject to the Chruch authorities whether to allow or not?
 
choy said:
so it is a disciplinary action thats subject to the Chruch authorities whether to allow or not?
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Yes. It is not a matter of faith and morals. Therefore, there can be no theological error.
 
choy said:
the Church allows it. who are you to make such a decree?
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That’s the number 1 excuse right there. The Church allows it. There’s plenty of things the Church has allowed since Vatican II that were not previously allowed before then but it doesn’t make those things right. What about all the past Popes who said there shouldn’t be girl altar servers? Should we ignore what they say and accept what has only been considered a valid practice for 41 years? The practice is wrong. What the Church considers right and wrong these days can be mis-leading.
 
Onegin said:
Thank you CDNovak! I get the basic concept of what you posted.

So, the question remains: how can the words of Pope JP II in 1994 be reconciled with the words of Popes Benedict XIV who called it an abuse, Innocent IV and Gelasius who went so far as to call this an “evil practice”?

Surely something evil doesn’t become good merely by the passage of time.

Assuming that to be true, either the Popes of the past were wrong or JPII was wrong.
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Or was it a matter of obedience that it was wrong before, therefore the canon being lifted, so would the condemnation?
choy said:
the problem with your perception is that if you don’t agree with something as a personal opinion, you make it sould like its evil when its not.
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Umm choy, what thread are you reading?
choy said:
EMHCs are necessary so that masses can finish as scheduled and that succeeding masses can be started as scheduled. if there are enough priests in a parish, then they are not necessary. but fact is, most parishes don’t have enough priests.
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There seems to be plenty of time between Masses. Regardless I’ll respond with your favorite argument (authority): Redemptionis Sacramentum 158.

A bigger part of the issue is that both sides are arguing the weakest possible arguments, and dismissing the other side because how weak their argument is. Tradition is a very weak argument, then again so is authority, both particularly so when they conflict with each other (as in this case).
 
CDNowak said:
A bigger part of the issue is that both sides are arguing the weakest possible arguments, and dismissing the other side because how weak their argument is. Tradition is a very weak argument, then again so is authority, both particularly so when they conflict with each other (as in this case).
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I wouldn’t consider tradition the weakest argument considering tradition cannot be modified in any way.
 
SpiritusSanctus said:
I wouldn’t consider tradition the weakest argument considering tradition cannot be modified in any way.
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The Appeal to tradition is technically a fallacy (although appeal to Tradition would be a species of appeal to authority, again very weak argument). Far better to argue other paths then keep beating away at the weakest. (for both choy and traditionalists).
 
CDNowak said:
The Appeal to tradition is technically a fallacy (although appeal to Tradition would be a species of appeal to authority, again very weak argument). Far better to argue other paths then keep beating away at the weakest. (for both choy and traditionalists).
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Tradition and authority in THIS particular argument aren’t the same thing. The Pope has the authority to follow tradition, but he also, according to others, has the authority to break tradition. See what I’m saying?
 
SpiritusSanctus said:
Tradition and authority in THIS particular argument aren’t the same thing. The Pope has the authority to follow tradition, but he also, according to others, has the authority to break tradition. See what I’m saying?
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That does not hold true. There is a difference between Tradition and tradition. Tradition ( capital “T” ) is that Holy Tradition handed down through the ages which cannot and should not be broken, while tradition ( small “t” ) is man made and is not cast in stone. Small “t” tradition can be modified, altered, abrogated, etc.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
 
choy said:
here’s the website
stmarysvancouver.ca/

my apologies i said 7 masses, there are 6. the last time i was there they were talking about adding a 3pm mass and i thought that pushed through
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Based on the website this is one of the best NO parishes I’ve seen. Why do you think there is such a strong attendance (relatively speaking)?
 
choy said:
so you’re telling me that the Church teaches in error, that it allows evil within the Church?
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where is the teachings of the Church in all this? you seem to just want to argue wihtout knowing the facts.

why do you think the Pope Paul VI said: " the smoke of satan has entered the Church?"

why do you think BXVI has said: " Lord Your Church looks more like a boat sinking. In Thy field there are more weeds and wheat."

do you think it is because everybody is doing the right thing in teh Church?
seek discernment my friend.

youtube.com:80/watch?v=HGHdGFvm1K4
 
SpiritusSanctus said:
Tradition and authority in THIS particular argument aren’t the same thing. The Pope has the authority to follow tradition, but he also, according to others, has the authority to break tradition. See what I’m saying?
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An argument that rests its merit on who asserted the point in the past (ie in either tradition or Tradition) is an argument from authority. It is a valid argument if, and only if, the authority cited is the proper authority, which would include both Tradition and Popes Paul VI and John Paul II.

Altar girls can be argued against on a number of grounds: the training in proper sex roles, psychology of males (that drives them away from female dominated institutions), the reassignation of minor orders (and the major order of subdeacon) to lay ministries, the neglect of those instituted ministries, etc., and the argument from Tradition.

The more I think about this the more I feel the greater injustice was perpetrated with the suppression of the minor orders (and the major order of subdeacon) by Ministeria Quaedam. This colored the new Code of canon law and undermined JPII’s statement the women should not be admitted to serve at the altar, eventually resulting in the clarification from Legal Texts in 1994. The situation would not be nearly as grave, even with all this, however, if bishops actually Instituted Ministers for the parishes.
 
Ockham said:
Based on the website this is one of the best NO parishes I’ve seen. Why do you think there is such a strong attendance (relatively speaking)?
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personally, i prefer my current parish priest. but the parish priest of St. Mary’s is such a lovable guy, with his personality you really have to try very hard not to like him. but my current parish priests just appeals to me more, he’s an intellectual in Church history and Scripture and the way he disects and analyzes the readings during homilies is just amazing.

part of the reason i think St. Mary’s have so many people is its accessability. its one block away from a light rail transit station and is located in a high population neighborhood. i think many who live further East in the metropolis and take transit to work out west in Downtown or other areas just outside downtown, would go to mass here. i usually see a few nurses in their scrubs during mass, they’re probably either on their way in or just got off from their shift
 
wisdomseeker said:
where is the teachings of the Church in all this? you seem to just want to argue wihtout knowing the facts.

why do you think the Pope Paul VI said: " the smoke of satan has entered the Church?"

why do you think BXVI has said: " Lord Your Church looks more like a boat sinking. In Thy field there are more weeds and wheat."

do you think it is because everybody is doing the right thing in teh Church?
seek discernment my friend.

youtube.com:80/watch?v=HGHdGFvm1K4
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and you associate all those to girl altar servers?
 
SpiritusSanctus said:
That’s the number 1 excuse right there. The Church allows it. There’s plenty of things the Church has allowed since Vatican II that were not previously allowed before then but it doesn’t make those things right. What about all the past Popes who said there shouldn’t be girl altar servers? Should we ignore what they say and accept what has only been considered a valid practice for 41 years? The practice is wrong. What the Church considers right and wrong these days can be mis-leading.
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pnewton alreayd provided a good answer on post 381
 
Javl said:
That does not hold true. There is a difference between Tradition and tradition. Tradition ( capital “T” ) is that Holy Tradition handed down through the ages which cannot and should not be broken, while tradition ( small “t” ) is man made and is not cast in stone. Small “t” tradition can be modified, altered, abrogated, etc.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
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I always mean the kind of Tradition that is spelled with a capital T, I sometimes just forget to capitalize it.
 
choy said:
are you sure thats the proper sequence? didn’t the girls come into the picture because the guys don’t want to do it anymore?
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No, the modernism is the reason girl altar servers came along.
 
choy said:
proof?
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It primarily dates back to Vatican II where it was suddenly considered a valid practice in the Church. Interestingly, protestant services had such a practice first. So you can imagine how female altar servers got thrown in since protestants actually gave suggestions at Vatican II. Proof of them giving suggestions is everywhere. They may not have given that suggestion specifically, but it came along after Vatican II, so that’s your reason right there. I’ll be happy to post something to back up my view on this matter if you wish.

Do you have any proof on your stance? I’d like to see where you got such a theory.
 
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